Do City leave you cold?

I am genuinely shocked by how many people here don’t rate pep as a manager. I mean I get the hate - I find the guy smug and irritating and he manages a main rival…but I thought objectively people would recognise his abilities as a coach more. I think they are pretty much irrefutable.

im not up for arguing with our own fans to defend a manager I don’t have any great affection for. I thought I was being pretty objective. I genuinely think in managerial terms the guy is a genius and a visionary football wise. He is at the top table allbeit with a tainted legacy. His abilities for me are not really up for much debate. I think most non close rival football fans would have a similar view.
 
Wouldn't say it's "cold" as it's hard not to be impressed watching them, last night being a case in point.

What's lacking is the emotion/romance though. Even their last minute wins feel a bit polished/over amplified. Everything about them is kinda corporate imo. Like a well executed business plan of a financially dominant company. Success is inevitable. PL needs greater diversity in competition at the top. There's no title race now, it's a procession.
 
captaincantona said:
I am genuinely shocked by how many people here don’t rate pep as a manager. I mean I get the hate - I find the guy smug and irritating and he manages a main rival…but I thought objectively people would recognise his abilities as a coach more. I think they are pretty much irrefutable.

im not up for arguing with our own fans to defend a manager I don’t have any great affection for. I thought I was being pretty objective. I genuinely think in managerial terms the guy is a genius and a visionary football wise. He is at the top table allbeit with a tainted legacy. His abilities for me are not really up for much debate. I think most non close rival football fans would have a similar view.
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I’ve admired Pep as neutral for years seeing as Arsenal were a complete non-entity in the league. Now his genius is adversely affecting my life, I have to say - he does leave me slightly cold.

When Arsenal recently played United I truly felt something. It reminded of why I love football. And it wasn’t just because of the result, there was something intangible between the teams that simply isn’t there with City. It’s almost like the difference between a 1v1 game and competing against a computer.

I think they play amazing football, but it’s oddly soulless. I never got that feeling with his Barcelona team. People talk about the players he inherited, but he also personally brought the likes of Busquets through with him from Barca B. There was something beautifully organic about that team. Whereas this City side is a ruthlessly efficient machine.
 
erikcred said:
But our wins weren't nearly this dominant. City are hitting high 90 points repeatedly.
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Points totals are largely impacted by how you do in other competitions and if your competition pushes you on. Modern training and analysis is a big reason as well for elevated consistency. Give that to our previous teams and they would get that big more points too.
 
It's possible to credit Pep for being the all-time great coach that he is while also dismissing City as an artificial, financially doped Frankenstein's Monster who'd be nothing without Pep and Abu Dhabi's bottomless resources.
 
Son said:
Even as a United fan I can’t say Pep made Bayern worse. Sure he didn’t win the Champions league but he continued the dominance and similar level of 2013.

The Madrid 4-0 sticks out as a low point yet he should have knocked Madrid out another year and luck went against Bayern.

Anyone could lose 4-0 on a one off game to that peak Madrid so those happen. Otherwise did pretty great.

They dominated games more but scored less goals while conceding about the same. He changed the way they played and it worked both at home and in Europe they went consistently deep into the CL. That’s fine.
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He coached the fire out of the team. Heynckes was similar to SAF in the sense that his teams- while well coached- were passionate and up for the fight. A well coached team with proper spirit is better than a marginally better coached team of robots. I have a suspicion that if Jupp had stayed rather than retiring, Bayern would have won further CL's.
 
DickDastardly said:
But, sooner or later they will dwell back into obscurity.
As soon as Pep leaves them, and he will in a year or two, it's all over.
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They were winning premier leagues before Pep and they will win plenty after Pep. Not nice to admit but they are an absolute force now and ran extremely well there's no way they ever go back into obscurity.
 
captaincantona said:
I am genuinely shocked by how many people here don’t rate pep as a manager. I mean I get the hate - I find the guy smug and irritating and he manages a main rival…but I thought objectively people would recognise his abilities as a coach more. I think they are pretty much irrefutable.

im not up for arguing with our own fans to defend a manager I don’t have any great affection for. I thought I was being pretty objective. I genuinely think in managerial terms the guy is a genius and a visionary football wise. He is at the top table allbeit with a tainted legacy. His abilities for me are not really up for much debate. I think most non close rival football fans would have a similar view.
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Well at least I agree with you about Pep. He really is, at the moment in a class of his own.
I completely understand that Manchester United fans are not supposed to say anything positive about City. But they are a well run club and have a top manager.
It is not all about money although I acknowledge that helps massively.
 
groovyalbert said:
Wouldn't say it's "cold" as it's hard not to be impressed watching them, last night being a case in point.

What's lacking is the emotion/romance though. Even their last minute wins feel a bit polished/over amplified. Everything about them is kinda corporate imo. Like a well executed business plan of a financially dominant company. Success is inevitable. PL needs greater diversity in competition at the top. There's no title race now, it's a procession.
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Pretty much. They're not really a football club, just the flagship brand of a state-backed franchise which is increasing it's market share. All very choreographed, all very superficial, inevitably rinsing it's competitors with sovereign wealth.
 
Arthur Pewty said:
Of course I understand why you want to believe that. It must be painful to see your own club under-performing for 10 years whilst the club down the road spends less than you and wins trophy after trophy after trophy.

But what actual evidence do you have for your allegation? I don't mean rumours you heard in the pub from other bitter mates. Actual evidence?

I'll put aside the fact that the rules you allege we have broken, are bent in the first place. Rules that ignore clubs like yours bring saddled with enormous debts, whilst trying to limit or punish clubs like City simply trying to invest and spend like yours has done for decades. United win title after title whilst spending more than anyone else and buying up the best players season after season. Now another club is in a dominant position and you cannot stomach it.

I'll file your post under bitter and deluded.
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You do whatever you need to cope. It must be a tough pill to swallow when people correctly point out that your club cheats and cheated to attain success, like Juventus and Lance Armstrong before it.

Until then, and as a refresher, these are the charges, brought about by facts and evidence, that City will have to reckon with soon.

 
No.. I really only focus on us. We win or we lose... we have successful trophy runs or we don't... I don't care for the success / failure of other teams, just ours.

Being that we're not in the title race, I don't care who wins... it just doesn't matter to me. Maybe It's because I live on the other side of the ocean, haven't seen them play live or witnessed the atmosphere/rivalry between clubs, etc...

If you take your personal bias out of it, watching good teams play is always a treat
 
Real Name said:
Sorry I must have mixed you with the guy who keeps bringing up City players in every conversation and says he loves certain City players.
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I only love Haaland. I admire such hunger and determination to become better and better.
Anyway, no problem, mixing up is human!
 
I think City are a well oiled ( no pun intended) machine. Their tactics and execution of the said tactics is pretty close to perfect. Pep has built some very good teams over the past few years and the hate is more of jealousy. People talk about spending money , look at Chelsea with spending even united, we have spent so much over the past decade and we still cannot have a fully functional starting 11.

This whole notion of love and emotions and all that is an excuse, especially highlighted this year. The whole world exacerbate by the nauseating media was in the arsenal bandwagon winning it from under the noses of city. The student ( Arteta) triumphs over the master while deploying the style and tactics of the said master. It's all about selling a story for the clicks and flicks. look at recent years, Liverpool was the best team in the entire andromeda galaxy and there is little to no coverage of their fall of the cliff decline. I am 100% sure this will become a story next season when things start getting back.

Looking at the title challenge, it's not city's fault that other teams do no compete consistently. If Arsenal continue this season's form, United get back to some consistency, Chelsea have a stable manager, pool get back from their slump. Then it very well could be a interesting few seasons ahead. City is the only team consistently doing well in all formats of the game. But that's the problem because there is no excitement with consistency.

Hate to admit all this being a united fan but facts are facts.
 
MiceOnMeth said:
They were winning premier leagues before Pep and they will win plenty after Pep. Not nice to admit but they are an absolute force now and ran extremely well there's no way they ever go back into obscurity.
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They were taken to court by UEFA for cheating, and got off on a technicality of timing.

They are currently facing 100 charges of breaking financial rules by the Premier League.

'ran well'
 
captaincantona said:
But do you disagree with my main point - that even if you gave every manager/club in the league a blank cheque, Pep’s teams would still be dominant? There is not a HUGE gap in quality between Ake, Akanji, Stones etc and other defensive line ups in the PL…so why do almost every other team look pedestrian in comparison? It’s because the guy is a fuking brilliant coach that gets the best out of players. We buy players and the almost always stagnate or regress it seems - that’s without even mentioning the systems we have played in/not played in over the years.

Money wise they are cretins but they also coach decent players to look like world beaters. I just don’t think you can sell pep short on money issues.
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The reason City dominate is because they have a squad of players that would go into most top 4 starting 11s. Their rotation allows them to go deep into all competitions. It’s their major advantage to all other teams. Why do you think they always end the league with major winning runs? Look at United right now, our team is knackered because we can’t rotate to the same quality.

They spent an absolute fortune when Pep came in and since then have been able to cherry pick players and slot them in. They don’t need to spend big now because the advantage was created 5 years ago, now suddenly they are perceived as well run!
Remember when they had injury problems at CB, then in January spent £60m plus on Laporte. Then Dias comes in. No other club can simply replace players that quick.

Pep is clearly a fantastic coach but City have been given a major advantage for years. Even the Haaland deals stink. ‘Just’ £60m we were led to believe. Lots of media praise on how they acquired the bargain of the century. The we find out he’s on £600-700k a week, then agency fees are more than the actual fee. What other back handers did they do to get the deal done then?

The product of the Premier League is slowly dying. Once Newcastle solidify their position, which is going to happen if they make top 4, the league will gradually be as boring as the Bundesliga. I’d argue it already is but for a miracle points tally by Liverpool, City would be on 6 in a row soon.

Maybe when Pep leaves the League will even out but they will just hire the very best again. Because of so much hate still thrown towards United by neutrals, they are blind to what is going on with City. If they win the next 5 in the row maybe these fans will wake up and realise.
 
Thing about City is unless we were playing them I never even looked for their results. Them being down in the doldrums for years made me forget a bit about them. I always wanted to know how Liverpool, Leeds and Arsenal were doing.
 
Arthur Pewty said:
Of course I understand why you want to believe that. It must be painful to see your own club under-performing for 10 years whilst the club down the road spends less than you and wins trophy after trophy after trophy.

But what actual evidence do you have for your allegation? I don't mean rumours you heard in the pub from other bitter mates. Actual evidence?

I'll put aside the fact that the rules you allege we have broken, are bent in the first place. Rules that ignore clubs like yours bring saddled with enormous debts, whilst trying to limit or punish clubs like City simply trying to invest and spend like yours has done for decades. United win title after title whilst spending more than anyone else and buying up the best players season after season. Now another club is in a dominant position and you cannot stomach it.

I'll file your post under bitter and deluded.
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The irony.

Certainly deluded…
 
Blood Mage said:
It's possible to credit Pep for being the all-time great coach that he is while also dismissing City as an artificial, financially doped Frankenstein's Monster who'd be nothing without Pep and Abu Dhabi's bottomless resources.
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Yes, fully agree.

Pep is most certainly one of the best coaches to have ever been involved in football.

His career choices - convenient/shoddy as they are- won't make people remember him as one, and that's his own doing.
 
Pep Guardiola is more famous than the club he manages. The reality is when he leaves they'll go back to being even more irrelevant.
 
Fridge chutney said:
You do whatever you need to cope. It must be a tough pill to swallow when people correctly point out that your club cheats and cheated to attain success, like Juventus and Lance Armstrong before it.

Until then, and as a refresher, these are the charges, brought about by facts and evidence, that City will have to reckon with soon.

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Oh oh oh but what evidence do you have!?

Love his logic, rules they've broken are bent in the first place..
 
Shark said:
Pep Guardiola is more famous than the club he manages. The reality is when he leaves they'll go back to being even more irrelevant.
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They'll be relevant for as long as their owners want. It's not contingent on Pep.
 
captaincantona said:
I am genuinely shocked by how many people here don’t rate pep as a manager. I mean I get the hate - I find the guy smug and irritating and he manages a main rival…but I thought objectively people would recognise his abilities as a coach more. I think they are pretty much irrefutable.

im not up for arguing with our own fans to defend a manager I don’t have any great affection for. I thought I was being pretty objective. I genuinely think in managerial terms the guy is a genius and a visionary football wise. He is at the top table allbeit with a tainted legacy. His abilities for me are not really up for much debate. I think most non close rival football fans would have a similar view.
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Why? Every team he has coached he has had a cheat code.

Barcelona - at least 4 of that team were in the conversation as the greatest to ever play the game, certainly in their positions. All in one side, all academy products. It now appears they also played every game with 12.
Bayern - one horse race. Your nan could win the league with them.
City - the most expensive group of players in history.

The only time he has ever faced a competitive league without by far (and that's an important point) the best players in that league was the first year or two with City. He came third.


He's an excellent coach but he's not the demi-god he is made out to be, and not in the top tier with Ferguson, Michels, Cruyff, Paisley and so on.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
People keep saying that as if it's a fact, but it's simply not true. This City will always be associated with financial doping, whatever their successes.
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Nobody says it in relation to Chelsea's achievements back in Jose's first spell and they were just as bad if not worse than City; people only remember that that was a damn good Chelsea side, with a legendary defence. I really don't think people will care about how City's success was achieved, it will be recorded as a fantastic success and it's pretty obvious they're not going to get done with any retrospective punishment
 
Irwin99 said:
Nobody says it in relation to Chelsea's achievements back in Jose's first spell and they were just as bad if not worse than City; people only remember that that was a damn good Chelsea side, with a legendary defence. I really don't think people will care about how City's success was achieved, it will be recorded as a fantastic success and it's pretty obvious they're not going to get done with any retrospective punishment
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I could be wrong but I don't think Chelsea actually broke any rules in relation to spending though. When FFP became a thing, they actually tried to run themselves in a sustainable way.
 
Irwin99 said:
Nobody says it in relation to Chelsea's achievements back in Jose's first spell and they were just as bad if not worse than City; people only remember that that was a damn good Chelsea side, with a legendary defence. I really don't think people will care about how City's success was achieved, it will be recorded as a fantastic success and it's pretty obvious they're not going to get done with any retrospective punishment
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Nobody ever brings up that they were funded by a Russian oligarch that was later sanctioned and kicked out because of his links to a dictator? Ok then.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Nobody ever brings up that they were funded by a Russian oligarch that was later sanctioned and kicked out because of his links to a dictator? Ok then.
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Not to the extent that their achievements are “hollow” or should come with an asterisk.

I generally think people are deluding themselves in hoping history will see city’s results / trophies voided? I really hate to fecking say it but sadly, I think it’s a pipe dream, and they’ll unfortunately be recalled as one of the best domestic sides in the country.

Excuse me while I go throw up…
 
Irwin99 said:
People saying they aren't bothered by City just feels like their way of ignoring what's really happening. The reality is we have to accept that they're achieving this stuff, that history wont remember their financial doping and we have to find a way to compete.

I'd personally rather we did it without just having unlimited funds and dirty money. You only have to look at what Klopp has done with Liverpool or further back what United did against Chelsea to see that you can achieve great things with good planning and it is actually special and meaningful when it happens. 06-07 for example was probably my second favourite United season ever after the Treble because we beat that Chelsea side.
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If people didn't care they wouldn't mention it.

I haven't seen any posts on here of people telling us how they don't care about the League 1 relegation battle.
 
Zen86 said:
They'll be relevant for as long as their owners want. It's not contingent on Pep.
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Exactly.
Pep's 2 predecessors both won a tidy number of trophies at City despite being a level below him and I'm sure Guardiola will have a say in whoever succeeds him.
It may not be quite the same with him gone but the other top English clubs will have to considerably up their game from their recent blundering attempts to profit from his departure.
 
Regardless of how relevant they are, I find boasts like thus quite funny. All the comments from City fans are “lol, I thought we were just little Citeh‘



Erm… maybe it was cos of the team whose greatest manager & greatest player (+ loads of others) were French?

maybe, just a thought
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Nobody ever brings up that they were funded by a Russian oligarch that was later sanctioned and kicked out because of his links to a dictator? Ok then.
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Not in relation to their success, no. I don't see people crying on internet forums because Chelsea won two European cups and 5 or 6 league titles and I don't see any 'Does Chelsea's success leave you cold' threads :lol: . Anyway, it made our success in 06-09 all the sweeter.
 
I understand the sentiment but I think it is really just because they are so good. So good that it seems impossible to beat them... if we lose to them it mostly makes me shrug as long as we give it a go.

However, I can't really show disdain or anything similar. Since the money came in and especially since Pep they have been almost unerringly smart in all their moves. What they have done is fantastic really, and not as easy as people make out at all.
 
It’s like watching a computer simulation of what happens when you combine the best manager with the best players and the most money. There is no enjoyment in it, and I’m sure most fans except City fan are apathetic towards their achievements at most.
 
Daydreamer said:
I’ve admired Pep as neutral for years seeing as Arsenal were a complete non-entity in the league. Now his genius is adversely affecting my life, I have to say - he does leave me slightly cold.

When Arsenal recently played United I truly felt something. It reminded of why I love football. And it wasn’t just because of the result, there was something intangible between the teams that simply isn’t there with City. It’s almost like the difference between a 1v1 game and competing against a computer.

I think they play amazing football, but it’s oddly soulless. I never got that feeling with his Barcelona team. People talk about the players he inherited, but he also personally brought the likes of Busquets through with him from Barca B. There was something beautifully organic about that team. Whereas this City side is a ruthlessly efficient machine.
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As someone said above it's arguably perfect football or whatever but that's not the joy of football. It's oddly lacking in flair or creativity. Somehow Guardiola managed to turn football into something too predictable and calculated.

It's a little bit like in Fifa when somebody squares the ball to put it into the empty net. Yeah, you scored but its a video game and you could have done anything else more fun than that. Or when you are kicking the ball around with mates and the ball drops in the air for a 25 yard volley; nobody who loves football isn't trying the spectacular.
 
Mockney said:
Regardless of how relevant they are, I find boasts like thus quite funny. All the comments from City fans are “lol, I thought we were just little Citeh‘



Erm… maybe it was cos of the team whose greatest manager & greatest player (+ loads of others) were French?

maybe, just a thought
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It was also a legitimately huge match.
 
sparx99 said:
It was also a legitimately huge match.
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The match in 2010 that held the previous record was Chelsea vs Arsenal… It was a huge match, sure, but probably just a coincidence that it’s also one of the first huge matches Arsenal have had in the league since around … 2010?

City claiming it’s anything at all to do with them is like Real Madrid photoshopping all those seats white.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
They were taken to court by UEFA for cheating, and got off on a technicality of timing.

They are currently facing 100 charges of breaking financial rules by the Premier League.

'ran well'
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And they'll get away again with a slap on the wrist.
They signed Kompany, Yaya, David Silva, Aguero. An amazing core that brought them league titles and consistent champions league football. Hired experienced competent Managers and got Txiki Begiristain as director of football and finally got Pep as the crown jewel to their plan and have utterly dominated ever since.

Don't know how you can't say they've been well run on and off the pitch while we pissed a billion up the wall with only an Europa and a few domestic cups to show for it.
 
Heardy said:
Not to the extent that their achievements are “hollow” or should come with an asterisk.
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We've been singing a song for years that literally includes the words "Chelsea's success is hollow".
 
Arthur Pewty said:
whereas an owner wishing to invest his own money in the club, the infrastrure and the regeneration of a run down part of Manchester is terrible behaviour. Only on Red Cafe.
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Yes. This is why people are calling you guys cheats…not because you have been under investigation for multiple financial breaches including channelling money through third party sponsorships…
 
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