Disaster Draft (ex-Snakes and Ladders) - Now with Jordi's reply

On a general note, the issue is the wording doesn't perfectly match the underlying spirit of the rule.

@Edgar Allan Pillow to have the final say
 
Yeah this name criteria needs to get sorted too now.

Nightmare draft so far :lol:
 
So in which round this gets abandoned due to Edgar having enough of this? :lol:
 
Ecstatic said:
Hendrik Johannes (Johan) Cruijff

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Cruijff

Johannes Jacobus (Johan) Neeskens

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Neeskens


I want the point of view of neutrals

@KirkDuyt
@totaalvoetbal
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dutch neutrals :lol::lol::lol:

sorry @Ecstatic but there's no need for any other input the criteria is as clear as day.


  • Who has the same 'First' name as someone who is already in your team - First word of real name. E.g. For Cafu first name is "Marcos Evangelista de Morais" - The player you pick must have Marcos as part of his full name.
Hendrik and Johannes are not the same first name and now you must pick a player with the first name of Hendrik.

Fear not though, theres a nice 72 silver rated GK you can use

https://www.futbin.com/19/player/9032/Hendrik Van Crombrugge/
 
Arbitrium said:
dutch neutrals :lol::lol::lol:

sorry @Ecstatic but there's no need for any other input the criteria is as clear as day.


  • Who has the same 'First' name as someone who is already in your team - First word of real name. E.g. For Cafu first name is "Marcos Evangelista de Morais" - The player you pick must have Marcos as part of his full name.
Hendrik and Johannes are not the same first name and now you must pick a player with the first name of Hendrik.

Fear not though, theres a nice 72 silver rated GK you can use

https://www.futbin.com/19/player/9032/Hendrik Van Crombrugge/
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https://www.worldofjohancruyff.com/cruyff/personal/


First name: Hendrik Johannes
 
tbf arbitrium does have a point, going by the rules Hendrik is his first name so the pick isnt valid. But then again, if Leonel is the same as Lionel i dont think we need to debate this, just pick who you want.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
tbf arbitrium does have a point, going by the rules Hendrik is his first name so the pick isnt valid. But then again, if Leonel is the same as Lionel i dont think we need to debate this, just pick who you want.
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Agree. Both really shouldn't stand.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
tbf arbitrium does have a point, going by the rules Hendrik is his first name so the pick isnt valid. But then again, if Leonel is the same as Lionel i dont think we need to debate this, just pick who you want.
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hadnt even noticed that, it's invalid aswell. That box is a shit one to land on early on in the game but just have to get on with it and suck it up. Theres plenty of people out there called leonel, maybe not many with the first name of hendrik johannes though :lol:
 
I think that at this point we just have to be rational about it, not pedantic. That's why, I believe, Edgar wanted every arguable decision to go through him. I mean obviously Cruyff's name should be Johan for this criteria.

I can obviously understand the pedantic view as well, but I'm with @Ecstatic on this one. Lio/Leo is also the same in my book.
 
Lads why are we having any kind of debate here instead of just coming out and saying the obvious, the picks aren't valid. The first names are simply not the same. Pick again and move on
 
harms said:
I think that at this point we just have to be rational about it, not pedantic. That's why, I believe, Edgar wanted every arguable decision to go through him. I mean obviously Cruyff's name should be Johan for this criteria.

I can obviously understand the pedantic view as well, but I'm with @Ecstatic on this one. Lio/Leo is also the same in my book.
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whats the point in criteria if it can just be so easily circumvented. Legally, his name is Hendrik.
 
harms said:
I think that at this point we just have to be rational about it, not pedantic. That's why, I believe, Edgar wanted every arguable decision to go through him. I mean obviously Cruyff's name should be Johan for this criteria.

I can obviously understand the pedantic view as well, but I'm with @Ecstatic on this one. Lio/Leo is also the same in my book.
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The rule is pretty clear tho:

Who has the same 'First' name as someone who is already in your team - First word of real name. E.g. For Cafu first name is "Marcos Evangelista de Morais" - The player you pick must have Marcos as part of his full name.
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First word of real name and Wikipedia as an arbitrary source.

Leonel | Lionel sure almost the same, but Johannes and Hendrik...

I have no problems either Moby and Ecstatic keeping their players but if we go by the rules...
 
Arbitrium said:
whats the point in criteria if it can just be so easily circumvented. Legally, his name is Hendrik.
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tbf both are well known as Johan so you can understand the rationale behind the pick and why it should maybe count but Lionel and Leonel is just insane :lol:
 
Enigma_87 said:
The rule is pretty clear tho:


First word of real name and Wikipedia as an arbitrary source.

Leonel | Lionel sure almost the same, but Johannes and Hendrik...

I have no problems either Moby and Ecstatic keeping their players but if we go by the rules...
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I have a huge problem with ecstatic keeping his players as he's my opponent, and on this place you could put wimbledon 97 players around cruyff and neeskens and they'd still win votes.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
tbf both are well known as Johan so you can understand the rationale behind the pick and why it should maybe count but Lionel and Leonel is just insane :lol:
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Yeah sure but the criteria states very clearly first name not "known as" hence the cafu example. Literally bolded the first part of his name and everything so EAP did
 
Arbitrium said:
whats the point in criteria if it can just be so easily circumvented. Legally, his name is Hendrik.
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No, it's just you being boring.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00277738.2016.1118860?journalCode=ynam20
Multiple First Names in the Netherlands (1760–2014)
Although in Europe the custom to choose more than one name for a child first arose in the early Renaissance in Italy, its popularity reached the Netherlands only in the eighteenth century. On the basis of a high-coverage sample of the birth and name information for 26 million individuals from 1760 until 2014, the preference for multiple first names in the Netherlands has been studied, both annually and geographically.
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Part of the game that most of you wants me to have a max of sheeps I'm fine :)

My case set aside, for example, what the point of having a box "Players not born in Europe/SA" if the outcome is to have a lot of French/Dutch/.. who played for European countries at the international level?

I mean the spirit of the law - in these drafts - should always prevail, and ideally from a football standpoint. So, a European country should be defined by its participation in the Euro and so on...

harms said:
I think that at this point we just have to be rational about it, not pedantic. That's why, I believe, Edgar wanted every arguable decision to go through him. I mean obviously Cruyff's name should be Johan for this criteria.

I can obviously understand the pedantic view as well, but I'm with @Ecstatic on this one. Lio/Leo is also the same in my book.
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Fair play, thanks :)
 
Ecstatic said:
Part of the game that most of you wants me to have a max of sheeps I'm fine :)

My case set aside, for example, what the point of having a box "Players not born in Europe/SA" if the outcome is to have a lot of French/Dutch/.. who played for European countries at the international level?

I mean the spirit of the law - in these drafts - should always prevail, and ideally from a football standpoint. So, a European country should be defined by its participation in the Euro and so on...



Fair play, thanks :)
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I agree entirely. But theres debate to be had there from a legal point of view. With first names there simply isn't. its crystal clear that his first name is Hendrik, or if we want to take harms research into account, his first name is Hendrik Johannes. I'll permit you to select a player with Hendrik as the first name though, you know, to help you out :)
 
Ecstatic said:
Part of the game that most of you wants me to have a max of sheeps I'm fine :)

My case set aside, for example, what the point of having a box "Players not born in Europe/SA" if the outcome is to have a lot of French/Dutch/.. who played for European countries at the international level?

I mean the spirit of the law - in these drafts - should always prevail, and ideally from a football standpoint. So, a European country should be defined by its participation in the Euro and so on...



Fair play, thanks :)
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In the spirit of the draft I have no problems with you keeping both Johan's as that is the name they are known. The rules needed work and that's why I mentioned doing a full restart early on(that ship of course sailed). It seems that as we advance through the ladder every rule is challenged creating issues.

18 pages and we're just in round 3, fecking hell...
 
Enigma_87 said:
The rule is pretty clear tho:

First word of real name and Wikipedia as an arbitrary source.
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That's a better argument. Although still it's mostly on Edgar :) I think that in those criterias you should go by mod's judgement so that the pick wouldn't go against the spirit of the draft — but that should be written in the OP (any arguable decision goes to the mod) and it isn't.
 
Enigma_87 said:
In the spirit of the draft I have no problems with you keeping both Johan's as that is the name they are known. The rules needed work and that's why I mentioned doing a full restart early on(that ship of course sailed). It seems that as we advance through the ladder every rule is challenged creating issues.

18 pages and we're just in round 3, fecking hell...
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I bet you'd have a problem with it if you were facing him
 
Arbitrium said:
I bet you'd have a problem with it if you were facing him
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yeah of course mate, you do have your say on it and if we're going by the rules I agree that it isn't a valid pick. My point was we either allow some leeway (as you and me will land on that box at some time and would have issue as well) or go strict by the rules.

harms said:
That's a better argument. Although still it's mostly on Edgar :) I think that in those criterias you should go by mod's judgement so that the pick wouldn't go against the spirit of the draft — but that should be written in the OP (any arguable decision goes to the mod) and it isn't.
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think Edgar needs some help here. I bet he has around 10 alerts each time he logs in and his PM box is bombarded with requests..
 
Enigma_87 said:
yeah of course mate, you do have your say on it and if we're going by the rules I agree that it isn't a valid pick. My point was we either allow some leeway (as you and me will land on that box at some time and would have issue as well) or go strict by the rules.


think Edgar needs some help here. I bet he has around 10 alerts each time he logs in and his PM box is bombarded with requests..
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Honestly think in order for the draft to remain competitive and fair, every bit of bad luck that can happen to players should happen otherwise you'll have a small amount of teams that everyone will know is going to win the draft. There will be many more meltdowns i'm sure :lol:
 
Hendrik Kirk saves the day
First name's Johan. Hendrik Johannes are his Christian names.

For instance, my mom's official name is Maria Janette Barendina, but her first name is Marian.
 
KirkDuyt said:
First name's Johan. Hendrik Johannes are his Christian names.

For instance, my mom's official name is Maria Janette Barendina, but her first name is Marian.
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thanks for settling it dutchy

why isnt your mothers first name Janet?
 
Arbitrium said:
thanks for settling it dutchy

why isnt your mothers first name Janet?
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I have no clue honestly. For some weird catholic reason I suppose.

It does depend though. If Johan Cruijff's parents listen his civil status as Hendrik Johannes and just told everyone, call him Johan, his name is Hendrik and not Johan. Since I don't know what Cruijff was officially registered at. I can't say for certain.

I just know that in The Netherlands your Christian name is often different from your civil one, but it's not mandatory. So consider the debate still open.

:)
 
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