Player of the season easily. No one has been as consistent, despite few players having a good season.
20
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 50
- Clean sheets
- 12
- Goals
- 3
- Assists
- 5
- Yellow cards
- 7
- Red cards
- 1
- Status
Patrice Evra on DD:
Sure what does Evra know about what a good FB is?
Basically what most people have been saying then
Surprised that so many rate him. I find him mediocre at best, especially as he's not a very good defender
He wasn’t, until this season, when he’s been fantastic
He's highly thought of, and a contender for player of the year, but an average rating the performance threads of just 5.4.
It's quite strange how we all like him, but rarely think he plays well.
It's quite strange how we all like him, but rarely think he plays well.
More people vote on performances when they are annoyed than when they are happy.
His average performances will have more people voting on here than his more regular good to very good performances.
The voting is often used a a way to blow off steam after the more frustrating matches.
I think, "fantastic" is pushing it a bit. He was one of the better players for sure but that isn't really saying much. He was a regular part of the defence that has been as dysfunctional as it has been. Nobody has been fantastic.
Any evidence on that or is that your rationalisation that people have different standpoints than you?
People online are more likely to leave a negative review than a positive one. That is pretty much a universal fact regardless of what you're talking about.
This is probably right. Plus being frustrated they'll sometimes give a really low rating even it's not realistic (giving all the players 1-2 rating after a bad loss etc).
Indeed.... a real headscratcher
The other fullback (who a lot on here think is the worst player ever) got a 5.1
That’s why medians are more useful than means.
So you don't have anything substantial to base your initial claim on. Other than assuming it works the same here as with Amazon or Google reviews
Alright then.It isn't like I don't see your point but I think it is a more nuanced than "some people only rate players when they were really bad". I mean, look at last match against Newcastle. I don't think we played well but still people were handing out 7's and even 8's to some players. In a game where we scored from two rather lucky bounces and where the opponent created enough chances to score 5 or 6 times to win the game easily. So I am pretty sure the issue is more connected with some group dynamic ("Many people in here thought he did well, I didn't really notice him but I guess they are right") and even more often with confirmation bias. When you advocated for buying a player, you are more inclined to like what he does on the pitch. If you were against bringing somebody in, you'll be inclined to feel confirmed when he isn't really great.
The more polarisation you have in a group, the more extreme the positions can be, which may lead to, for example Dalots, staunchest fans giving him a 7 rating when all he did was routine fullback stuff and the best one could say is that he didn't take the chance to feck something up while a "hater" will rate him with a 3 for the same game "because he didn't do anything and lost the ball twice".
Maybe that is something that the forum could introduce? I would substitute one or the other as median has its downsides as well but I agree, to evaluate how a player has been seen over the course of a season the average probably isn't the greatest.
Strongly disagree. When judging a single player, you do not judge by the performance of the collective. At the end of the day, he's 1 of 11 players on the pitch, and every single one of them has a role in how effective we are as a defensive unit.
When you assess Dalot strictly on the basis of his own personal performance - his defensive solidity, the number of errors he's personally made, his attacking contributions on either flank, his technical acumen, his development as our 'extra man' in midfield, his workrate and intensity, and his team culture impact - he's been fantastic.
People are conflating the team's bad season with Dalot's performances personally, which of obviously wrong. We all know it's wrong, because we occasionally look at bottom-half teams and recognize gems among their squads. We're just not as prone to recognizing the same in our own squad - particularly when they're no longer youngsters.
When a team gets worse defensively, you have to look at it and say "who/how are we getting worse?" We know the answers - Casemiro's decline, tactical gap between midfield/defense, and injuries to CBs. To attribute it to Dalot and let it cloud your perspective on his performance strikes me as too simplistic.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I suspect we're at risk of Madrid coming in this summer or next for Dalot - he's been absolute quality this season.
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I don't think I've ever seen him win a Man of the Match award, let alone the monthly ones. He's been consistently good, but very rarely stands out as fantastic, unless everyone else has been exceptionally poor.
Strongly disagree with the bolded part to use your words. Only people calling him fantastic are United fans. Not that this means it is wrong but as with so many others, hyperbole is big. If you think, fantastic is the appropriate word, so be it. I think, it is pushing is quite a bit. The best part of the package right now is, that he is on an upward trend and had a relatively good season. Which might indicate he can be come very good in the future. But I don't think, he is there already. And especially the parts you listed, errors hes made, attacking contribution I dont really see that. Certainly not in anything that I would use the word fantastic for. And "team culture impact" always activates my hyperbole alarm.
But again, if you want to call all that fantastic, fair play to you.
Fullbacks almost never win MotM for any team in any league. Just for example, the last time I can recall a fullback winning PL MotM for any match was week 28 (so we're talking once maybe twice in the last 180 league matches?). Statistically, they are by far the least likely position to win MotM.
You bolded literally everything I said about how his performance this season has been good. So yea, I suspect we're too far apart to have consensus on anything in this conversation haha. Edit: I just noticed you even bolded his workrate and intensity, which was maybe an error but I think again shows you aren't really evaluating him personally - you're conflating him with the team.
One thing I will say is that, normally, I'd care less about team culture impact. But if you don't value dressing room impact in a squad that has had the issues it's had with Sancho, Rashford, Ronaldo, Greenwood, etc, while simultaneously a new, young, and impressionable group of players is coming through, then I think you're very, very far off the mark. We desperately need people creating the right culture in that dressing room and working for each other on the pitch - something has been very broken there.
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I think that's a greater reflection of our season, and sentiment towards this team, than of Dalot.
Fair enough.
I just went to fbref, not to disregard you or anybody specifically in here, just out of interest for myself to maybe see my perspective change. Unfortunately I can't insert screenshots as media... So this is the link to his fbref profile/ scouting report. I didn't expect it to be that average to be honest and much of it is probably also connected to the overall season of United but I think, it gives a certain undertone for words like "fantastic". Mind, this is against ALL other fullbacks in the top 5 leagues...So also to Sheffields players, Lutons and the teams noone really knows in the Buli and La Liga...
Link to screenshot
fbref profile
I also compared his stats to AWB. It isn't as obvious in many stats as you would expect...
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Yep, fellow stats junkie and I keep an eye on fbref as well.
With fullbacks and defenders in general it's pretty well-noted that summary stats are often not great representations of their performance because visually it weighs all statistics the same and also undervalues things like positioning (so essential for defenders) and off the ball work - which allows you to not perform the discrete actions that fbref exclusively measures.
Just for example, AWB looks much better both defensively and in possession (passing & take-on stats) vs Dalot on fbref. Historically, he's been better defensively, but not this season. And in possession, he's never been close to as good as Dalot (except for a 3-month spell last season).
But yea, that's fbref for you.
Edit: What I would give for a tour behind the scenes with data science teams that analyze defenders' performances at the elite level - would be fun to see how they think about it at the cutting edge. I have to think there are fun metrics around shot-creating actions from dynamic territorial zones that are shifting based on 'expected positioning' for a defensive player or something like that. E.g., "in this dynamic scenario, you were supposed to be the person covering the shot creating action, and succeeded/failed". Anyway, I digress, laters.
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Grown into a dependable player this year. I think he's got a bit to go to be classed among the best but he has done enough to be relatively content with him going into next season. Which is a big step as at the season start there would have been a huge question mark over him. I think when Jose was pumping him up as the best young FB in Europe it looked like pure nonsense for a while but he's grown into his physicality and we're starting to see a player.
So you don't have anything substantial to base your initial claim on. Other than assuming it works the same here as with Amazon or Google reviews
It isn't like I don't see your point but I think it is a more nuanced than "some people only rate players when they were really bad". I mean, look at last match against Newcastle. I don't think we played well but still people were handing out 7's and even 8's to some players. In a game where we scored from two rather lucky bounces and where the opponent created enough chances to score 5 or 6 times to win the game easily. So I am pretty sure the issue is more connected with some group dynamic ("Many people in here thought he did well, I didn't really notice him but I guess they are right") and even more often with confirmation bias. When you advocated for buying a player, you are more inclined to like what he does on the pitch. If you were against bringing somebody in, you'll be inclined to feel confirmed when he isn't really great.
The more polarisation you have in a group, the more extreme the positions can be, which may lead to, for example Dalots, staunchest fans giving him a 7 rating when all he did was routine fullback stuff and the best one could say is that he didn't take the chance to feck something up while a "hater" will rate him with a 3 for the same game "because he didn't do anything and lost the ball twice".
It's literally a statistical fact that people are more likely to review something when they are displeased with it.
I really don't need to offer anything more than that documented fact, even if I wanted to it would be impossible to provide any specific data for the caf specifically. What you can do is think back to seasons where you think players have played really well and go back and find their performance threads. In great seasons I imagine the average rating is far less than you'd expect because of the fact that I have stated.
Also feel free to Google "why are people more likely to leave a negative review". I'm not going to go around in circles with you for things that have already been studied in depth.
So you don't have anything substantial to base your initial claim on. Other than assuming it works the same here as with Amazon or Google reviews
It isn't like I don't see your point but I think it is a more nuanced than "some people only rate players when they were really bad". I mean, look at last match against Newcastle. I don't think we played well but still people were handing out 7's and even 8's to some players. In a game where we scored from two rather lucky bounces and where the opponent created enough chances to score 5 or 6 times to win the game easily. So I am pretty sure the issue is more connected with some group dynamic ("Many people in here thought he did well, I didn't really notice him but I guess they are right") and even more often with confirmation bias. When you advocated for buying a player, you are more inclined to like what he does on the pitch. If you were against bringing somebody in, you'll be inclined to feel confirmed when he isn't really great.
The more polarisation you have in a group, the more extreme the positions can be, which may lead to, for example Dalots, staunchest fans giving him a 7 rating when all he did was routine fullback stuff and the best one could say is that he didn't take the chance to feck something up while a "hater" will rate him with a 3 for the same game "because he didn't do anything and lost the ball twice".
Maybe that is something that the forum could introduce? I would substitute one or the other as median has its downsides as well but I agree, to evaluate how a player has been seen over the course of a season the average probably isn't the greatest.
Can you actually see this? I've never used the rating thing on this forum in all my time so I'm pretty clueless on this. Not a single vote for any player.
Have you been? Would be interesting to see yours for all our players this season.
Less than Onana, Varane, and the same as Hoijlund... Much maligned over the course of the season. Less than Garnacho and Mainoo....
I agree. I would like to see it for some posters as well. But no, I only assumed that when a player has an average of 7.x that people must have given a few 7's and 8's.
I can tell you that I rated Dalot most often with a 5. Sometimes a 6. I think maybe once or twice with a 4 earlier this season. Usually 5, when he does what I expect him to do without standing out positively or negatively. My average rating for Dalot is 5.0, redcafe average is 5.4. Shaw 4.8 to 5.7. Looks like my ratings are mostly pretty close within .3 to the redcafe average and yes, my ratings almost everywhere lower than the redcafe average.
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Alright. Lets not argue about it. Enjoy your evening.
Fyi, never disputed the fact that people are more likely to review things they are displeased with. I disputed that this "fact" is 1:1 applicable to Redcafe Internet Football Fan Forum ratings.
Cheers. Yes it would really interesting and transparent if we could see each other's rating. It would help massively with a lot of the discourse and discussion as it give contexts to everyone's comments. I would probably join in too.
I just asked the question here: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ask...-action-questions-please-pm-us.446161/page-48
I remember you said you had a personal preference for AWB over Dalot a few months back, which was quite shocking to me considering your criticism of the latter. Has AWB's recent poor form been a big shock to you? Are their qualities to you still not that much different when you weight both the pros and cons?
I will keep the tab to your technical question open. I agree it would be interesting to see how posters rate. Even though, just fyi, I noticed that my rating system might be a bit different than that of other people. Which would make comparing them more difficult. My rating is always based on my personal expectation, so if a player performs how I expect him to perform without standing out positively or negatively, thats a 5. So if you can have identical performances for two players one being a U18 player and one being one of the experienced 1st teamers, I probably would rate it differently even though the actual performance is the same. I am not sure if other people go the same way about it.
In regards to AWB, I think Dalot definitely decreased the distance in terms me being confident about defensive coverage. AWB would still edge it for me but I trust Dalot to mostly not make mistakes. And yes, I am aware that both are making mistakes - it is about nuances in my personal reception. In terms of on the ball, there hasn't been much change since the last time we had that topic. Dalot is definitely better and more comfortable on the ball but I still think he isn't using it to influence games often enough. But that might be also down to instructions. I actually think AWB became a little more comfortable on the ball too, he is trying to make use of it and while it looks lanky, I wouldn't say he is abysmal with it. Overall Dalot is the better footballer, no question about it. Even though I think AWB gets a little too much flack while Dalot gets a little "too much" praise. But I can only repeat it, it is subjective and I am aware of potential bias's. I rate AWB with 5 most of the time as well, I actually think both fullbacks did a reasonable job overall, given the constant (and for me sometimes not understandable) shuffling in terms of which flank they operate in.
I totally understand about the different ratings. I'm sure that's probably similar for others but with transparency, you could see everyone's patterns and criteria, which would make it interesting to discuss.
As for your comments on AWB, I'm a bit confused. Are you rating AWB as if he's an inferior player, therefore his performances more leniently and likewise, you expect more from Dalot because he's more capable? On the one hand, you've said Dalot 'is the better footballer', 'more comfortable' etc but then your language seems to make both as sort of interchangeable? If that is the case, then I've got to say your rating of AWB is generous because in what world can AWB and Dalot have equal/similar ratings this season? If that's not the case, then you can ignore the rest although I would still find it odd that there isn't a clearer distinction. One is being talked by many fans and in the media as our POTY and the other would be one of the easiest transfer outs this summer that many would not raise an eye for. Of course, considering the season we've had, everyone on the team should be on the chopping block but you know what I mean.
I understand it's probably a bit unfair to say it now as AWB is probably in some of the worst form of his career with us but it's not like he's making uncharacteristic mistakes i.e they are all fundamental issues that we've seen for years and unfortunately he hasn't matured. He has quality in areas but it's mostly in situational instances and his all round game is just so poor.
I've seen your comments on McT and Bruno, which I tend to agree so I'm surprised you seem to have that much of a wide berth for AWB because it's quite similar. I'd use McT solely for this comparison (because AWB is not near Bruno on impact, ability and effort) as it's easy to see their 'high' standout attributes and impactful actions on the pitch at times. However, they both have such little influence in between the plays and a bad reading of the game when on and off the ball when it comes to moments of play that require nuance i.e not transitional or a moving ball that requires more decision making.
If I had to simplify it, I don't have an issue understanding how you rate Dalot if you said something similar to 'AWB, bad mkay' because that would make sense considering your criticism of Bruno/McT. Otherwise, it just seems a bit inconsistent?
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Brighton 0:2 Man Utd
PotS. Good performance, good finish.
It's good that he got to cap off a good (individual) season with a goal, he deserved it.
How did he manage to get one on one vs keeper, I don’t know. But took his chance very well, nice goal
Most consistent player really - Garnacho has been brilliant in moments, Bruno has been good from March, Onana stopped being shyte after December etc. He's the only player who can hold himself up and say he's put in decent performances throughout our season
He's been threatening to score that exact goal for months with that angled run from deep. Glad to see that pay off for him, and generally solid game overall.
He's made that run quite often this season, I remember Onana finding him a couple of times with passes. Unfortunately wasn't able to convert those chances, took his chance well today.
Good game today.
It's the rules that Man Utd must always have 1 fullback performing above the general level of the rest of the team.
Well done for filling that role whilst Shaw was missing in action this season.
Well done for filling that role whilst Shaw was missing in action this season.
Took his goal well after somehow finding himself playing as a number 9.
He's making that diagonal run in behind the opposition defence very regularly this season. Bit bizarre it's our full back of all players making that run consistently but it's been fairly effective.
He is joining midfield so probably often ends up without a marker in that area. Makes sense. He played well today. In 1st half I thought it was relatively ok, but better and more stable in 2nd half. Took his goal really well. @criticalanalysis A well deserved 6 for being a little better than expected
(will come back to your earlier post)- Status