Would love to hear that person's thoughts on why he "deserved" to win. Spain were the better team across the tournament (easily) and were the slightly better team in the final.
Did Southgate "achieve something arguably more important, than winning a tournament"?
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I guess Southgate could be anyhow compared to Arteta? Both very close to glory, both took over teams that seemed rather far from winning anything. Then again, Arteta never really had the best (not even the second best) team on the paper and the expectations were never as high
Germany without a doubt. It wasn't a great German team at all and they have been struggling/underachieving for years but I feel it was more a battle against history in that game. The fact that it was at home also was a big help, but still, I was impressed as no team can ever feel safe against Germany no matter how bad they seem
Other than that, Netherlands would be the next big country, and then...well, no one else. Obviously you can only beat what's in front of you but when you think someone like Sven had to face the likes of Brazil, Argentina and the so called golden generation of Portugal (twice!) it seems incredibly jammy until the inevitable defeat by an elite side.
He deserved to win basically because he's England manager and the journalist is English.
Absolute nonsense that he achieved more than winning a tournament when in every one he got the luckiest draws he could have and still didn’t manage to win anything. The bare minimum was to get to where he did in each one.
All this talk of ‘turning England around’, ‘making players feel good’, ‘getting the media onside’, if he was that good at that he’d have a better club management career. What do we expect England players to say, ‘I hate his tactics’, ‘he’s done nothing as a manager’ and questioning why they aren’t playing? They’d not even get in the squad if the did that. I doubt Palmer, Gordon, Toney or Watkins think he’s a great man manager, just the ones he constantly picked.
Let’s see which clubs move to get him in and utilise his ‘skills’.
All this talk of ‘turning England around’, ‘making players feel good’, ‘getting the media onside’, if he was that good at that he’d have a better club management career. What do we expect England players to say, ‘I hate his tactics’, ‘he’s done nothing as a manager’ and questioning why they aren’t playing? They’d not even get in the squad if the did that. I doubt Palmer, Gordon, Toney or Watkins think he’s a great man manager, just the ones he constantly picked.
Let’s see which clubs move to get him in and utilise his ‘skills’.
Exactly. He's been very lucky. But getting lucky and being ready to exploit that luck is itself a skill so he deserves some credit
A midfield of Bellingham, Rice, Mainoo, Foden should in theory be world class. Instead it misfires like Lampard, Scholes, Gerard. We need a coach who will be ruthless in not playing out of form players who can't operate out of their club position.
Chelsea youth prospects. No wonder you don't know them.
Germany without a doubt. It wasn't a great German team at all and they have been struggling/underachieving for years but I feel it was more a battle against history in that game. The fact that it was at home also was a big help, but still, I was impressed as no team can ever feel safe against Germany no matter how bad they seem
Other than that, Netherlands would be the next big country, and then...well, no one else. Obviously you can only beat what's in front of you but when you think someone like Sven had to face the likes of Brazil, Argentina and the so called golden generation of Portugal (twice!) it seems incredibly jammy until the inevitable defeat by an elite side.
Personally, I felt the penalty win over Colombia exorcised a lot of demons and was a great moment. Obviously we should have just beaten them properly because they weren't that great, but it was still a great moment.
I think what he's done off the pitch and behind the scenes will make it easier for the next manager coming in. He's definitely changed the culture of the players and the press are no longer hell bent on destroying our chances before we even get to a tournament.
On the pitch though he was out of his depth and basically came up short every time we played a half decent side. He certainly doesn't "deserve" to win anything but I don't think every aspect of his time was a failure. Madness to claim that his work off the pitch was worth more than a trophy though!
On the pitch though he was out of his depth and basically came up short every time we played a half decent side. He certainly doesn't "deserve" to win anything but I don't think every aspect of his time was a failure. Madness to claim that his work off the pitch was worth more than a trophy though!
People forget how bad we were before Southgate.
2016: lost to freaking Iceland
2014: came last in the group in a group with Costa Rica
2012: lost to Italy, Pirlo Panenka
2010: 4-2 to Germany, but we were shite from the off.
2008: didn't even qualify
2006: QFs pens to Portugal
2004: QFs pens to Portugal
2002: lost to a (10 man) Brazil
2000: group stage I think. Shite
1998: Beckham
1996... Semi final!
Yes he has changed the culture
2016: lost to freaking Iceland
2014: came last in the group in a group with Costa Rica
2012: lost to Italy, Pirlo Panenka
2010: 4-2 to Germany, but we were shite from the off.
2008: didn't even qualify
2006: QFs pens to Portugal
2004: QFs pens to Portugal
2002: lost to a (10 man) Brazil
2000: group stage I think. Shite
1998: Beckham
1996... Semi final!
Yes he has changed the culture
Why don't we mentioned "small country mentality" here? England have one of the most expensive squads for 20 years straight but we should appreciate the manager who got to finals and semi-finals but didn't actually win anything. England = Croatia in terms of size, population, wealth and football stature?
Pretty much what I wanted to say to respond to people mentioning previous managers. Sven got a really rough end of luck when it came to fixtures, which is the complete opposite to Southgate.
To add, Southgate has been managing during a real dearth of quality European teams. I can't see any European team today or over the past half decade that could compare to Spain and Germany from the late 00's to mid 2010's. This really was an opportunity for this talented England squad to win titles. While you can argue losing to this Spain team isn't horrible, though I would argue otherwise since this isn't a great Spain team by any measure given Germany almost beat them, losing to that Italy team at Wembley was a travesty. The added fact that England were playing negative football throughout added to the frustration, you not only play tumescent football but also don't win anything.
There still is ofcourse time for this talented bunch to win a title but the FA really need to consider hiring a manager who can really get the best out of them and not rely purely on moments or counter attacking football.
Mainly because they also had one of the most expensive squads before Southgate, but got nowhere close to the results he had. But many rightly point out the quality of teams the other managers faced.
Dunno England tends to get knocked out when they face a decent team. They just got easy runs to the final
I don't think he did much other than practice penalties, tbh. He had a wealth of attacking players with technical ability and they struggled to create clear cut chances. Got an easy run to both Euro finals and a WC semifinal that they should be winning all day every day. If the FA make the right hire here then England could actually be on the way to something special. They have the chance to play really good attacking, direct, pacey, technical football with a press that's difficult to beat and players that are more than able to organize and defend in those moments where the other team gets a little ten minute spell of possession. Otherwise, this little "golden" spell of insanely favorable tournament draws will likely end and England will be back to losing to teams like Portugal, Brazil, etc in the quarterfinals.
No he achieved nothing. His sole task was to win trophies.
Show me the trophies.
Show me the trophies.
Southgate successfully established mates culture and his mates are trying to praise him now. M..f..er bottled at least two Euros with brilliant teams, he is shit coach that shouldn't be getting any credit
I’m asking legitimately, because I don’t know, but does he get credit for the younger age groups? Is he involved as sort of an overarching figure?
If so, that IS an accomlishment for sure.
Think he has had a lot to do with the style of those teams to make it easy for players to move from one age group to another, unfortunately that style doesn't seem to have gone onto the senior team.
Bizarre mental gymnastics to console yourself for losing.
I don't rate him as a coach (and hope he never gets anywhere near the United job) but he turned England from consistent under-achievers into regular contenders at major tournaments.
Of the four competitions we've competed in under Southgate, we've got to two finals, one semi final and one quarter final. That's an incredible record.
He took over a team that hadn't reached a World Cup semi final in 28 years and got us there. Prior to his hiring we'd reached one major final as a nation, it's now three.
No-one is saying we played great football, most people say the opposite (especially England fans) but to write off the results he helped us achieve is unfair.
Of course everyone outside of England tends to dislike us (country & team) so I won't expect to see much credit given.
Of the four competitions we've competed in under Southgate, we've got to two finals, one semi final and one quarter final. That's an incredible record.
He took over a team that hadn't reached a World Cup semi final in 28 years and got us there. Prior to his hiring we'd reached one major final as a nation, it's now three.
No-one is saying we played great football, most people say the opposite (especially England fans) but to write off the results he helped us achieve is unfair.
Of course everyone outside of England tends to dislike us (country & team) so I won't expect to see much credit given.
In the public eye I think he does, and I think he does even get some credit for the triumphs of the Lionesses. Don’t know to what extent he should get credit for that, but his reign with the men senior NT was the healing period for the FA and it coincided with English football being dominant across all fronts but the senior men - the most important one let’s not kid ourselves, that’s why Southgate is even considered an overarching figure.
We were a nation that never made it beyond the QFs. I don't think you can he didn't achieve something. He had a low bar to clear but for 20 years no manager ever went beyond the QF and then Southgate comes and achieves 1 world cup SF and 2 euros finals.
It's kinda funny how the script has flipped, because people used to mock England fans for years during the golden generation for believing we could win tournaments. It was called arrogance. Now people are saying England should have won tournaments and Souhtgate achieved nothing because he didn't win a tournament.
I don't think he was a huge success, but he achieved something and he leaves behind a foundation upon which the next manager will be expected to win.
It's kinda funny how the script has flipped, because people used to mock England fans for years during the golden generation for believing we could win tournaments. It was called arrogance. Now people are saying England should have won tournaments and Souhtgate achieved nothing because he didn't win a tournament.
I don't think he was a huge success, but he achieved something and he leaves behind a foundation upon which the next manager will be expected to win.
One thing his successor might struggle to surpass him on is getting more favourable paths in the knockout stages.
Didn’t have the courage to drop Kane when he knew his fitness wasn’t great, not only did it harm the team but made Kane look like his career was finished.
Southgate done well getting the team to so many finals over the last few years but with the players available for England they need a manager that’s more courageous with selections and willing to take risks with star players.
Southgate done well getting the team to so many finals over the last few years but with the players available for England they need a manager that’s more courageous with selections and willing to take risks with star players.
Absolute nonsense.
And that second tweet pretty much sums up why every other country hates the English soccer team/media.
Complete and utter entitlement and arrogance. ‘Deserved to win’ and ‘see you next time’ and ‘they will win something soon now’.
England have had piss easy draws in recent tournaments and they have everything to do to get near another final.
Zero self awareness or irony in that tweet.
Southgate is an opportunist. Nothing more. And he knows it. He was average (if that) as a club manager, being shown up by proper managers, so we knew his level. This never changed. He was the perfect manager for Gen Z... too much sensitivity to non-football issues. There was no need and it did not make the team any better. He also knew that International football is, in the main, not as demanding as Premier League. He also knew that England fans are hopeful rather than demanding (unlike Argentina, Germany, Brazil, Italy, France... teams who have won a lot of things..). He knew that most of the games would be against average teams. And he thought that he could just wait for talented players to make it happen.
No one, and I mean no one thinks Gareth Southgate is a top coach. No one. Think about that.
No one, and I mean no one thinks Gareth Southgate is a top coach. No one. Think about that.
He was diabolically bad as a club manager.
McLaren had Middlesbrough firmly established as a mid-table PL club, won the League Cup with them, took them to a UEFA Cup final, and reached at least a couple of FA Cup semi-finals.
Southgate had them relegated within three seasons.
Keep celebrating mediocrity England. You should be winning things, and Southgate has stopped that from happening.
Just because England have been hit or miss for the last 30 years doesn't give him a free pass.
Just because England have been hit or miss for the last 30 years doesn't give him a free pass.
Perhaps the real victory was the friends we made along the way
That’s the problem with this generation they sat around with their vintage T-shirts and their participation medals, and they never did anything.
After back to back Euro finals, and a World Cup semi final, I won’t necessarily miss the tactical approach to games or playing style, but I will dearly miss being in contention for titles if the next manager can’t emulate his performance.
Gareth took a lot of shit, but I for one am grateful for what he accomplished and will always look back on his time favourably. Hopefully the next manager can build on the experience accumulated in the squad and take us up a level in terms of trophies and quality of play.
Thank you Gareth. Good luck for the future,
Gareth took a lot of shit, but I for one am grateful for what he accomplished and will always look back on his time favourably. Hopefully the next manager can build on the experience accumulated in the squad and take us up a level in terms of trophies and quality of play.
Thank you Gareth. Good luck for the future,
Sacchi, Low, Deschamps, Domenech, Vicini...
He has had a great pool of players, he has had amazing draws inseveral tournaments. We have andmay neverhave again in myl ifetime such a good chance of winning a tournament than we had in the last two Euros.
There are several reasons apart from the abovethat I amnot a huge fan and think he has failed in ertain areas.
BUT he has handled the press well, he hasbought great unity in the squad rarely seen before, he has got results and had a side winning penalty shoot outs....something only seen before at Euro 96 v SPain....so fan or not, and I am not, there is still a lot he does desrve praise for andif we get the right attaking manager...Ihope they take on boarda lotof whathehas done....as both are needed if we are to be managed towards an exciting team that actually wins a major trophy. As othershave said,the state of England sides before he took overwas verypoor for a while
There are several reasons apart from the abovethat I amnot a huge fan and think he has failed in ertain areas.
BUT he has handled the press well, he hasbought great unity in the squad rarely seen before, he has got results and had a side winning penalty shoot outs....something only seen before at Euro 96 v SPain....so fan or not, and I am not, there is still a lot he does desrve praise for andif we get the right attaking manager...Ihope they take on boarda lotof whathehas done....as both are needed if we are to be managed towards an exciting team that actually wins a major trophy. As othershave said,the state of England sides before he took overwas verypoor for a while
You have to remember the kind of joke English national teams were prior to him to appreciate the harmony and stability he brought to the set up. He’s not a tactical genius and that cost him dearly in situations like against Croatia, where he had to make in game adjustments but if England get the next manager right, they should be able to build on the foundations laid down by Southgate. He could have been a pundit like any of those other has beens but he took the challenge with various roles in the FA and he deserves to commended for it.
Performances are the main criticism of his entire run. His England team almost never have good performances. They do, however, have consistent results, and that's the distinction that ought to be gleaned from his time in charge.
I mean this just isn't true. Panama, Tunisia, Sweden, Croatia, Czech Republic, Germany, Ukraine, Denmark, Iran, Wales, Senegal and France were objectively good performances
He didn’t even let anyone have fun along the way let alone winning a tournament.
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This will depend entirely on how the draw lands. It's the one thing that can't be ignored about how deep Southgate managed to take England. In the 2022 World Cup, he beat Iran, Wales and Senegal, then got beaten by France in the quarter-final, which was basically the exact sort of exit we had in Euro 96, WC 98, WC 02, Euro 04, WC 06, WC 10 and Euro 12. If the next manager fails to beat one of the big teams in the knockouts, then they've not really done any worse than Southgate did. He was just fortunate that he generally avoided them until late on.
The story of his entire tenure was leaving it really late to change things up. If the new manager can actually try and affect the game with his substitutions, then he'll already have a shot at doing better.
- Against Colombia in 2018, he didn't make a change until after the 80th minute.
- Against Croatia, he made one change before full-time, in the 75th minute. He made two changes in extra-time before Croatia's goal, both defensive.
- Against Denmark in 2021, he made one change before full-time (Grealish for Saka in the 70th minute), while Denmark made five, and he then swapped Rice for Henderson as one of his changes in extra-time.
- In the final, he waited for Italy to score before changing anything, then in the 70th minute brought on Saka for Trippier, and Henderson for Rice, while Italy had made two changes before scoring.
- He then made just one change that could affect the game in extra-time (Grealish for Mount), leaving it until stoppage time to bring on Rashford and Sancho.
- Against France in 2022, he waited until their second goal to change anything, leaving it until the 80th minute to bring Mount and Sterling on, the 85th minute to bring Rashford on, and the 8th minute of stoppage time to bring Grealish on.
- 1-0 down against Slovakia from the 25th minute. Waited until the 84th minute to bring Eze on for Mainoo, and the fourth minute of stoppage time to bring on Toney for Foden.
- Waited for Switzerland to score in the next round, making changes in the 78th minute. Didn't make another change until five minutes before the end of extra-time.
- Swapped Shaw for Trippier at half-time against Netherlands, then waited until the 81st minute to bring on Palmer and Watkins.
- Had Trippier and Gallagher ready to come on for a good 10 minutes after the equaliser, dithered, then they scored again 13 minutes after we did.
What is this meant to mean?