Did Southgate "achieve something arguably more important, than winning a tournament"?

Red Star One

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So I am seeing a little bit of this sentiment and some very high praise for what Southgate achieved with England, and it got me wondering, how do the England supporters on the Caf view Southgate's achievement outside of failing to secure the trophy? From the outside, it's not the first time I have the impression that the English NT manager job is perhaps a bit different than other European national team jobs - an Italian or Spanish manager would have one main goal, and that's to get the group to play decent football, make them hard to beat and try to win something. In England, apart from unrealistic footballing expectations of bringing it home each time, the manager must also be the perfect Englishman, ooze class and decency, promote national values, unite the country, be charismatic and be the model king's subject. And the manager's idolisation level, as he's no longer just a gaffer but the Champion of National Unity, skyrockets.

Again, apart from Southgate's football achievements that speak for themselves and no one can take from him the back-to-back Euro finals, anyone also feels like sometimes the focus was too little on his managerial skills and too much on this elusive vibe and culture? Then again, perhaps England is a special case considering the past clashes in the NT between players from rival clubs, but this happens everywhere, right? I rarely read high praises of Italian/Spanish (quoting those cultures as I know them best) national managers just because they got the Madrid/Barca or Inter/Juve playing together.
 
feckin participation awards everywhere
 
He turned England's fortunes around, but we'll never know if another manager could have done better given the players he had at his disposal. I've got no great hate for him now he's stepped aside, but its still a massive case of what could possibly have been over the last few tournaments.
 
Nothing can be more important in football than winning a trophy with a top team who have a squad capable of doing it.
 
England fans all about the taking part, feck trophies, they are for egos.
 
I think he did a very good job overall, and as some of the tweets say, he's built something which itself can be built on.

There's value in what he did, and the understated way it was done, without much drama or the nonsense we had with Hoddle, Capello and (to some degree) Sven. When he took over, we weren't getting a superstar manager in as an alternative, so fair play to him for what he did.

In the end though his cautious approach is what did for him. The very best managers make good decisions at key times and that where he's been found wanting in both Euro finals.

That said, some of the players need to have a look at themselves as well.
 
I dont think you could have a manager that looked the part more than Southgate. He is all British class on the touchline, and off it.

I suppose you can look at it from a perspective of what matters? If trophies is the only thing that matters to you in football, then Southgate, and everyone that came after 1966 have only failed. The players and managers have all been disappointments and achieved nothing.

That is a brutal pessimistic way of looking at the beautiful game and I genuinely hope no one actually feels that way.

The English manager is first and foremost a representative of a national culture that has a odd way of unifying the nation for a few minutes after every goal. In that sense Southgate has done an excellent job as England has been relevant, instead of a "sort of good but can lose to a lot of teams" type of squad. A team at the forefront instead of the periphery.

The English, while incredibly passionate about their national team, are also some of the worst fans in football, with relentless criticism in the media to the disgusting "hanging of Beckham". Football brings out the best and the absolute worst in people.

And in absolutely all of that Southgate has been nothing but a gentleman and quite frankly better than you deserved at times, and perhaps worse than you deserved at key moments during tournaments.

The defense of Harry Maguire is just a recent example of someone who is above all a good man and a leader.

I think Southgates tenure will be remembered fondly by most, at least by the adults in the room when time has passed and the grass doesnt turn out to be any greener with the next person at the helm, as has been the case for the past 58 years.
 
From the outside, I do think he achieved quite a fair bit with the English national team given where you were when he took over. Classic case of a man who improved the team but couldn’t keep up with the rising expectations because at the end of the day as a coach, he’s pretty mediocre. I say classic but I can’t actually come up with any equivalents off the top of my head.

What you should have done is let him go a few tournaments back because he was a good man to steady the ship and build some cultural foundations but he was never the man to lead you towards tactical and footballing excellence.
 
If you remove the unrealistic notion that any team barring Spain 2010 and possibly Argentina with prime messi has a “right” or “should be expected” to win something. Realistically his results have been phenomenal.

The issue with his reign is that he has a fantastic tournament record but the performances have never been that of a team able or deserving to win it.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
From the outside, I do think he achieved quite a fair bit with the English national team given where you were when he took over. Classic case of a man who improved the team but couldn’t keep up with the rising expectations because at the end of the day as a coach, he’s pretty mediocre. I say classic but I can’t actually come up with any equivalents off the top of my head.

What you should have done is let him go a few tournaments back because he was a good man to steady the ship and build some cultural foundations but he was never the man to lead you towards tactical and footballing excellence.
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Basically this. The writing was on the wall with how we lost to Italy, it was the time for him to go then.
 
Did England ever have a game that would be considered historic during his tenure? Like a great win over a mighty opponent? Because all I seem to remember is England having extremely favourable draws and then getting dumped by the first equally matched or relatively better team.
 
I wanted him gone but then I wouldn't be surprised if he became the England manager that reached the most finals this century (well end of my life, doubt I make it to the end).
 
For me he will be fondly remembered primarily because he finally gave us a real reason to believe it was possible. We've had guys that talked a good game and got everyone hyped, Gareth carried himself with a lot of humility and respect for the position he had been put in. From the low points of the Euro 2016 exit to Iceland and the Sam Allardyce scandal, having a genuine, likeable guy speak like he was one of us & talk to us about the heartbreak he'd been through by missing that penalty, it felt like he gave us a real connection. He elevated the team to places we haven't seen as a footballing nation in a long time and on top of that instead of utter despair every tournament, we've had something to smile about, enjoy & feel a part of.
 
Tom Cato said:
I dont think you could have a manager that looked the part more than Southgate. He is all British class on the touchline, and off it.

I suppose you can look at it from a perspective of what matters? If trophies is the only thing that matters to you in football, then Southgate, and everyone that came after 1966 have only failed. The players and managers have all been disappointments and achieved nothing.

That is a brutal pessimistic way of looking at the beautiful game and I genuinely hope no one actually feels that way.

The English manager is first and foremost a representative of a national culture that has a odd way of unifying the nation for a few minutes after every goal. In that sense Southgate has done an excellent job as England has been relevant, instead of a "sort of good but can lose to a lot of teams" type of squad. A team at the forefront instead of the periphery.

The English, while incredibly passionate about their national team, are also some of the worst fans in football, with relentless criticism in the media to the disgusting "hanging of Beckham". Football brings out the best and the absolute worst in people.

And in absolutely all of that Southgate has been nothing but a gentleman and quite frankly better than you deserved at times, and perhaps worse than you deserved at key moments during tournaments.

The defense of Harry Maguire is just a recent example of someone who is above all a good man and a leader.

I think Southgates tenure will be remembered fondly by most, at least by the adults in the room when time has passed and the grass doesnt turn out to be any greener with the next person at the helm, as has been the case for the past 58 years.
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Great post and I agree with the majority of it, I find the bits like "The English manager is first and foremost a representative of a national culture that has a odd way of unifying the nation for a few minutes after every goal." accurate, only just can't help but wonder if the "British class on the touchline" and "uniting the nation first and foremost" are a little bit at odds with full focus on the footballing side. Again, not judging if it's good or not, but it seems to me the English manager has much more off-the-field expectations than most other NT managers.
 
Telsim said:
Did England ever have a game that would be considered historic during his tenure? Like a great win over a mighty opponent? Because all I seem to remember is England having extremely favourable draws and then getting dumped by the first equally matched or relatively better team.
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We've had plenty of great moments that'll be remembered for a long time, more than the previous 20 odd years combined.
 
Spain deserves to win they completely outclassed England

Southgate tactics were genuinely awful
 
I think he does deserve some credit in that regard but ultimately he's a limited manager. An ideal place to have called it a day would have been after the last World Cup but I do understand why he wanted to give this Euros a go.
 
Sunny Jim said:
he achieved nothing with England which is a specular achievement itself when you look at the quality of players he has managed.
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Southgate did a great job of getting people interested and creating a community.

There were very fine margins between Southgate being a multi-trophy-winning hero and a “bottler” / “nearly man”.

I’d argue about the quality of players. England have had much better quality players before without getting close to winning anything.

If you make a combined France / England XI or do the same with Spain / England, there won’t be an English majority there.
 
Telsim said:
Did England ever have a game that would be considered historic during his tenure? Like a great win over a mighty opponent? Because all I seem to remember is England having extremely favourable draws and then getting dumped by the first equally matched or relatively better team.
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Perhaps the R16 game at Euro 2020 against Germany, 2-0 for England.
 
He had incredible luck.

He took over just as a new crop of talent came through to replace the very average team we had in the mid 2010s. We went into this Euros with the Premier League's best player, La Liga's best player, and Bundesliga's top scorer, yet our xG was less than a goal a game.

Then he somehow managed to avoid any kind of decent opposition until the deepest stages of 5 tournaments. Compare to Capello who met Germany very early on in 2010 and Eriksen who lost to a ridiculous Brazil side in 2002 containing R9, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Cafu and Roberto Carlos.


I've long suspected a lot of his success is down to letting a group of extremely talented footballers do what they want so they're happy and play with freedom. Their talent alone steamrollers weaker opposition but it ultimately fails when any degree of tactical planning is needed.
 
Out of all interest, who was the best team he beat in a knockout game? Netherlands?

Getting to 2 finals is a good achievement, something an Irish soccer fan can only dream of, but there is no denying with the players he has and the luck he’s had with draws it would have been a total failure to not run as deep as he has in tournaments.
 
So , let me get this straight:

They want two things from The job:

1, cultural ambassador
2. Getting a team to play great football


And the argument here is that number 2 isn’t that important?
 
From the angle of:
  • Hodgson had us knocked out of Euro 2016 by Iceland after finishing second, behind Wales, in the group, and finished bottom of the group (that contained Costa Rica), without a win in the 2014 World Cup
  • Capello finished second with one win in a group containing USA, Algeria and Slovenia before getting battered by Germany in the 2010 World Cup
  • McLaren couldn't even get us to Euro 2008
It's been a remarkable turnaround. However, he didn't assemble the squad(s) he's had. They were all developed at their respective clubs, and he has been the beneficiary of a supremely talented pool of players to choose from.

From the angle of:
  • Beat Tunisia, Panama, Colombia (without James Rodriguez and on penalties) and Sweden to reach the 2018 World Cup semi-final, where we lost to Croatia (who weren't all that)
  • Beat Croatia, Czech Republic, Germany (at possibly their lowest ebb since Euro 2000), Ukraine and Denmark (in extra time) to reach the Euro 2020 final, where we lost to Italy (who failed to qualify for the World Cups either side)
  • Beat Iran, Wales and Senegal to reach the 2022 World Cup quarter-final, where we lost to France
  • Beat Serbia, Slovakia (in extra time), Switzerland (on penalties) and Netherlands to reach the Euro 2024 final, where we lost to Spain
I'm not sure it's that much of a remarkable turnaround, the 2006 World Cup, 2004 Euros, 1998 World Cup and 1996 Euros all ended on penalty shoot-out defeats to Portugal (x2), Argentina and Germany respectively. It's hard to argue that Southgate was winning any of those ties.

I also think the "squad harmony" praise is overstated. The club rivalries aren't the same as they were in the 00s, so the players simply don't care as much about those things. I'm not sure how much work Southgate's actually had to do there.
 
Red Star One said:



So I am seeing a little bit of this sentiment and some very high praise for what Southgate achieved with England, and it got me wondering, how do the England supporters on the Caf view Southgate's achievement outside of failing to secure the trophy? From the outside, it's not the first time I have the impression that the English NT manager job is perhaps a bit different than other European national team jobs - an Italian or Spanish manager would have one main goal, and that's to get the group to play decent football, make them hard to beat and try to win something. In England, apart from unrealistic footballing expectations of bringing it home each time, the manager must also be the perfect Englishman, ooze class and decency, promote national values, unite the country, be charismatic and be the model king's subject. And the manager's idolisation level, as he's no longer just a gaffer but the Champion of National Unity, skyrockets.

Again, apart from Southgate's football achievements that speak for themselves and no one can take from him the back-to-back Euro finals, anyone also feels like sometimes the focus was too little on his managerial skills and too much on this elusive vibe and culture? Then again, perhaps England is a special case considering the past clashes in the NT between players from rival clubs, but this happens everywhere, right? I rarely read high praises of Italian/Spanish (quoting those cultures as I know them best) national managers just because they got the Madrid/Barca or Inter/Juve playing together.
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If the manager of Italy, Germany, Spain, France, etc had half the players Southgate has and didn’t win anything he’d have been sacked after the arguably the Euro20, definitely after WC Qatar.

That’s why those teams don’t have to go back 60 years since their last trophy.
 
Most people would say the England manager, a relatively poor club manager, was given a gift due to the quality of premier league managers and still screwed it up.
 
duffer said:
Who are Henry Mance and James Graham?
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Mance is the chief features writer at arguably most influential news outlet in the UK, the FT, so not a complete random.
Graham wrote a theatre play (very popular, well received by the critiques and BBC is already shooting the TV series based on it) Dear England a play about England football manager Gareth Southgate, the pressures of elite sport, and the role of the national men's football team in the national psyche. The play explores how Southgate helped to change notions of masculinity on the England team , which I find absolutely hilarious
 
Think he has built a structure to be built on. It involves all the age groups, not just the senior team. He has been a good spokesman for the F.A. which was needed. Think he needed to go for his own mental welfare.
 
Sunny Jim said:
he achieved nothing with England which is a specular achievement itself when you look at the quality of players he has managed.
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People said the same about Roberto Martinez with Belgium.

But most of the time, a better team won the tournament like France in 2018, Argentina in 2022, Spain in 2024. Euro 2020 was the only one which I feel Southgate should have won and his poor tactics cost England the victory but Italy were good that tournament too and had knocked out Belgium and Spain on the way to winning it
 
I mean this has pretty much been the culture in England for some time.

Outside of Man.City, when was the last time a teams season was scrutinised or considered a failure (or even underwhelming) if they got top 4 but won nothing?
 
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