Di María's position at United

Ekeke said:
Di Maria, Ander and a non-De Jong type of sitting player sounds gung ho but maybe it'd work against 90% of teams and we'd have do something else against the best teams in the CL who would exploit the lack of defensive cover
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We can worry about the Champions League if/when we get back into it.
 
Crazy how people seem determined to drop Rooney or RVP or Mata for Janazaj. He is a talented kid but they are world class players. Team will be built around them for plan A. Janazaj is a plan b and ADM's versatility allows him to switch from his position of cm to winger to transition to 433 when required.
 
DFreshKing said:
Crazy how people seem determined to drop Rooney or RVP or Mata for Janazaj. He is a talented kid but they are world class players. Team will be built around them for plan A. Janazaj is a plan b and ADM's versatility allows him to switch from his position of cm to winger to transition to 433 when required.
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The team should be built around Janazaj seeing as he's much younger and will therefore hopefully be around long after Rooney and Van Persie. Plus neither, Rooney, Mata or Van Persie are wingers really so it makes sense to include Janazaj in the lineups with wingers deployed.
 
Trigg said:
The team should be built around Janazaj seeing as he's much younger and will therefore hopefully be around long after Rooney and Van Persie. Plus neither, Rooney, Mata or Van Persie are wingers really so it makes sense to include Janazaj in the lineups with wingers deployed.
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I'd rather play my best players now and let the future sort itself out, only god knows it lest we forget.
 
DFreshKing said:
I'd rather play my best players now and let the future sort itself out, only god knows it lest we forget.
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Agreed. But I think Januzaj is better playing out wide than Rooney, RvP and Mata.

For me it's about getting the correct balance within the team, not picking all the better individual players.
 
I think it would be a diamond formation like this, which is essentially a similar system to the current 3-5-2 except one of the centre backs becomes a defensive midfielder instead.

 
Theon said:
I think it would be a diamond formation like this, which is essentially a similar system to the current 3-5-2 except one of the centre backs becomes a defensive midfielder instead.

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That looks very good to me. Would love to see it happen :drool:
 
Theon said:
I think it would be a diamond formation like this, which is essentially a similar system to the current 3-5-2 except one of the centre backs becomes a defensive midfielder instead.

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This looks really good, both Di Maria and Ander can play wide too and can offer more width when necessary. Herrera played right midfielder for Zaragoza.
 
The fact we played 3-5-2 with Vermijl out of position on Tuesday, after we signed Di Maria, suggests we're sticking with it.

'Predicting' a formation with 4 at the back is wishful thinking.
 
I think in a 3-5-2, AdM could slot into either the WB (either side) positions or CM, giving a lot of versatility.
 
Our first choice wingbacks are injured, and our first choice CM's are injured. God knows which of the two positions he will fill but what an amazing talent to have at our disposal.
 
I love how some of the teams have gone from having Vidal to Carvalho in it. :lol: That said, I feel Carvalho would be a better fit for us as he's a proper number 6, which is feel should be higher on our priority list, in comparison to a number 8 in Vidal.

As for position, with the addition of Di Maria, I'd love Van Gaal to go to a 433 or 4312, but I feel he has his heart set on the 352 formation. Like all the other top managers, he seems pretty stubborn, and will want to prove to the fans that his 3412 system will work, although like he said he can change it during the game.

I think we could possibly see Di Maria on the left against Burnley. Something like:

De Gea
Jones - Evans - Blackett
Valencia - Herrera - Fletcher - Di Maria
Mata
Van Persie - Rooney​
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
I love how some of the teams have gone from having Vidal to Carvalho in it. :lol: That said, I feel Carvalho would be a better fit for us as he's a proper number 6, which is feel should be higher on our priority list, in comparison to a number 8 in Vidal.

As for position, with the addition of Di Maria, I'd love Van Gaal to go to a 433 or 4312, but I feel he has his heart set on the 352 formation. Like all the other top managers, he seems pretty stubborn, and will want to prove to the fans that his 3412 system will work, although like he said he can change it during the game.

I think we could possibly see Di Maria on the left against Burnley. Something like:

De Gea
Jones - Evans - Blackett
Valencia - Herrera - Fletcher - Di Maria
Mata
Van Persie - Rooney​
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Unfortunately you will have to swap Herrera for Cleverley, but that side you've named looks pretty good.
 
Jonno said:
Unfortunately you will have to swap Herrera for Cleverley, but that side you've named looks pretty good.
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Oh, is Herrera still injured then?

In that case, we could also see:

De Gea
Jones - Evans - Blackett
Fletcher
Valencia - Mata - Di Maria - Young
Van Persie - Rooney


EDIT:


When our full squads back, I think Van Gaal could play:

De Gea
Jones - Evans - Rojo
Carrick
Valencia - Herrera - Di Maria - Shaw
Van Persie - Rooney
​
 
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With our current squad I would like to see either of these two formations.

-------------De Gea----------
Rafael----Jones----Rojo----Shaw
-------------Carrick----------
--------Herrera--Di Maria-----
Januzaj-----------------Welbeck
-----------Van Persie----------

Or

-----------De Gea-----------
Rafael---Jones---Rojo---Shaw
------Carrick---Herrera------
Di Maria-----Mata------Januzaj
-----------Rooney----------

To be honest though. I don't care if he play in CM or on the wing. I just want the 3-5-2 gone.
 
I got from the presser that we will stick with 3-5-2, sadly.

I think Di Maria in the 10 role behind v.Persie and Rooney. Mata will be dropped.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
I got from the presser that we will stick with 3-5-2, sadly.

I think Di Maria in the 10 role behind v.Persie and Rooney. Mata will be dropped.
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I personally think Van Persie is more likely to be dropped than Mata when everyone is fit. Against Burnley however, I think Di Maria will come into midfield with Herrera still injured.
 
DFreshKing said:
Crazy how people seem determined to drop Rooney or RVP or Mata for Janazaj. He is a talented kid but they are world class players. Team will be built around them for plan A. Janazaj is a plan b and ADM's versatility allows him to switch from his position of cm to winger to transition to 433 when required.
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To be fair, Januzaj looked a class above them often last season.
 
I think he will start out in midfield, and possibly even in a midfield 2 in the 3-5-2. But I reckon he will move out wide when we sign another midfielder in the ilk of Vidal/Carvalho/De Jong!
 
I understood from Van Gaal in preseason that he wanted a team and players who could switch between multiple formations as the tactical situation required it.

That means BOTH 3-5-2 and 4-3-3 will be played.

As he said before, the players already understand the 4-3-3. They used it at times under Fergie/Moyes.

So for the present he is going to drill and play the 3-5-2 until the team learns how to play it.

The players he has bought and kept are players who can play different positions effectively in either formation.

Did the Dutch only play 3-5-2 in the World Cup? No, they used different formations according to their opponent.

As many have already been doing I think we have to think about two formations and which players will change their roles in each.
 
Sampy93 said:
I think he will start out in midfield, and possibly even in a midfield 2 in the 3-5-2.
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That's what I suggested previously, which is not too dissimilar to the diamond line up posted above. It looks more vulnerable than the diamond but if the midfield gets properly supported by the defence then it would work fine and in a similar fashion.

Trouble is when we sign Carvalho/Vidal I'm not seeing a natural fit for all those players whilst also playing three at the back. In that situation it just makes more sense to drop one of the centre backs (who aren't great) to play a midfield three - e.g. Di Maria/Vidal/Herrera - behind our front three up top.
 
Theon said:
That's what I suggested previously, which is not too dissimilar to the diamond line up posted above. It looks more vulnerable than the diamond but if the midfield gets properly supported by the defence then it would work fine and in a similar fashion.

Trouble is when we sign Carvalho/Vidal I'm not seeing a natural fit for all those players whilst also playing three at the back. In that situation it just makes more sense to drop one of the centre backs (who aren't great) to play a midfield three - e.g. Di Maria/Vidal/Herrera - behind our front three up top.
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Thats my thinking as well, Get a world class holding midfielder and play him with Herrera (B2B) and Mata (AM) with Di maria on the wing.
Another option would be to play Di Maria in the midfield three and play Rooney wide left, with Di maria providing width as he did at Real when Rooney drifts more central. Basically playing 4-1-4-1 when attacking.
 
Sampy93 said:
Thats my thinking as well, Get a world class holding midfielder and play him with Herrera (B2B) and Mata (AM) with Di maria on the wing.
Another option would be to play Di Maria in the midfield three and play Rooney wide left, with Di maria providing width as he did at Real when Rooney drifts more central. Basically playing 4-1-4-1 when attacking.
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I mean like the team below - effectively making the transition from three centre backs, to two centre backs and one defensive midfielder. The two systems are similar and it allows us to keep playing Mata/Van Persie/Rooney up top, which Van Gaal clearly wants to do. The difference is pretty marginal, one of the centre backs plays 15 yards further forward as a DM, but besides that it's a similar set up with fullbacks providing width and an attacking midfielder feeding two strikers up top.

At the moment I think we're set on 3-5-2 but when we sign a top midfielder like Vidal or Carvalho it does not seem possible to play them all whilst also keeping three at the back. Once we've signed a Vidal or Carvalho it makes sense to move to diamond. This maintains a similar style to a 3-5-2 but would be a better fit in those circumstances.

United-formation-tactics.png
 
Van Gaal's tactical evolution

Louis van Gaal has begun his time in charge of Manchester United by playing a 3-4-1-2 formation, an alignment with which he enjoyed success as Netherlands manager at the World Cup.

"Success" must be qualified, of course -- the Netherlands came third. However, it was a dramatically better performance than was expected, as many tipped them to finish behind Chile and Spain in the group stage. In the end, only a defeat to Argentina on penalties denied them a second consecutive appearance in the final.

However, it's worth remembering that 3-4-1-2 was Van Gaal's default formation, rather than his only one. He also played 4-3-3, 4-3-1-2, 3-4-3 and 4-2-3-1 at various stages, varying his approach according to the nature of the opposition, and the situation of the game. Besides, Van Gaal has never been a "template" manager, someone who brings an identical approach to different sides. He's often used 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 as his first-choice formations.

The question then, is simple. Why is he so keen to play a 3-4-1-2 at Manchester United?

The latter part of the formation makes most sense. In Wayne Rooney, Robin van Persie and Juan Mata, Van Gaal possesses three ultra-talented attackers who prefer to play centrally. None of the trio have been at their best for the past year -- in keeping with the rest of the United squad -- but all three are superbly efficient footballers.

Rooney, for all his faults, is just one goal behind third-placed Thierry Henry on the Premier League's all-time scoring list, Van Persie has finished as the league's top goal scorer in two of the past three seasons and Mata was close to being the best player in the league in his final complete season at Chelsea, racking up 12 goals and as many assists.

Using those three together in central positions makes perfect sense, which means a "...1-2" format is natural. In theory, the 3-4-1-2 allows United to have a spare man in defence and ensures plenty of thrust in wide positions.

It's highly questionable, however, whether the other seven outfield players suit the formation. For the first two games of the Premier League season, Van Gaal has been without any recognised full-backs, and therefore playing a four-man defence would have been extremely difficult, which is why using Antonio Valencia and Ashley Young as wing-backs was a logical, if far from perfect, solution. But when Rafael and Luke Shaw return to full fitness, and now that Angel Di Maria has completed his transfer from Real Madrid, it makes sense for Van Gaal to play 4-3-1-2, rather than 3-4-1-2.

Up front, Van Persie, Rooney and Mata would continue in a tight, central triangle, and while there would be less natural width (with the wing-backs becoming full-backs) there would be more forward running from the "shuttlers" on the outside of the diamond, who could charge forward with a solid holding midfielder protecting the defence.

The role of the shuttler involves great energy. Essentially, it means playing as a central midfielder but then providing width having made sudden diagonal bursts. In this particular position, Di Maria is arguably the world's best and it was particularly useful when he played in the same Real Madrid side as Cristiano Ronaldo, who always made the reverse movement, cutting inside from a wide starting position.

The Argentine is frequently misunderstood and often termed a winger, which suggests he's in the mould of Arjen Robben or Gareth Bale. In reality, at no point in his seven-year European career has Di Maria played in a front three -- he has generally been tucked inside into a deeper, more central position. At Benfica, for example, he excelled on the opposite side of the diamond to Ramires.

For Real Madrid under Jose Mourinho, he played a disciplined, narrow wide role in a 4-2-3-1 to compensate for Ronaldo and Mesut Ozil's attacking positioning; again, almost tucked back into a midfield three alongside Xabi Alonso and Sami Khedira. He turns defence into attack, rather than being stationed permanently in attack.

Meanwhile, for Argentina he's been fielded on the left of a midfield three under both Diego Maradona and Alejandro Sabella, although he was pushed wider in a 4-4-1-1 at the recent World Cup.

Fitting Di Maria into a 3-4-1-2 would be more awkward because he doesn't belong in the front three, using him and Ander Herrera together in a two-man midfield would be risky and playing him as a wing-back would be a waste.

This 4-3-1-2 formation also would perfectly suit Herrera, another expensive United newcomer. He is a good all-round midfielder, almost a throwback as a box-to-box player, and accustomed to covering huge distances under former coach Marcelo Bielsa at Athletic Bilbao.

This system would release him to play his natural game, storming forward into attack and running in advance of Mata and Rooney, something obviously lacking in United's first two games of the campaign.

Further back, United could revert to a back four comfortably. Shaw and Rafael could be wing-backs, but they've both been trained as full-backs and would be more at home in those roles. Centrally, United's lack of defenders is less worrying if Van Gaal needs to play only two of them.

Perhaps the most interesting position would be the holding midfield role. Here, Van Gaal could play Michael Carrick or perhaps Phil Jones, who has been one of United's better performers in the opening two matches.

Carrick's distribution is superior but Jones would be capable of dropping back between the centre-backs, which would mean United could become a 3-4-1-2 as an option within matches, rather than as a default system. This would be useful against sides playing two strikers. The problem with the 3-4-1-2, as was shown against both Swansea and Sunderland, is that three-against-one at the back was entirely unnecessary, and left them overrun in other positions.

There are merits to every system, of course, and given that he spent the past couple of months drilling players in the 3-4-1-2, it seems that Van Gaal perhaps wanted to bring tried-and-tested training ground drills with him.

Nevertheless, the 3-4-1-2 requires specialist players in specialist positions, and this transfer window has not yet prompted the revolution in the playing staff Van Gaal was anticipating.

It's difficult to identify a key Manchester United player who loses out by Van Gaal playing 4-3-1-2 rather than 3-4-1-2. Ashley Young and Antonio Valencia wouldn't command a place, but then that's a reflection of their underperformance for the past two years anyway.

Van Gaal is a famously stubborn individual and would be reluctant to change his approach so soon, but Di Maria's arrival means United have a squad perfectly suited to 4-3-1-2. http://www.espnfc.co.uk/blog/tactic...gaals-tactical-evolution-at-manchester-united
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I found this article really interesting. I wonder if a plan to play this way is the reason we appear to be back in for Carvalho given that it suits a DM in his mould.
 
LR7 said:
I found this article really interesting. I wonder if a plan to play this way is the reason we appear to be back in for Carvalho given that it suits a DM in his mould.
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Agree with this article. This formation would see us play all our superstars in their best positions and in a balanced team. It would also allow us to set up our defence in a system they'll be far more comfortable with and stop our lack of quality at CB from being anywhere near as badly exposed.

I know everyone wants Vidal but I'd be more than happy with a DM like Carvahlo if it meant we'd switch to a well balanced 4-3-1-2.
 
I see Mata being dropped, good player but he has a few flaws which may seem him being put on the bench, especially when everyone comes back. Van Persie will start (our best player) and so will Rooney. Di Maria is tactically flexible which is a big plus.
 
I think we're more likely to see one of Rooney or RvP dropped if it comes to it.

Bit irrelevant though as it looks like we're continuing with the 3-5-2, in which case we're more likely to see Di Maria in midfield behind RvP, Rooney and Mata rather than replacing any of them.
 
Maybe you can go

-----------De Gea---------------
----------Back four--------------
di Maria---Carvalho (DM)---Herrera
------------Mata-----------------
----------RVP-Rooney------------

Which can transition into

di Maria-DM-Herrera-Mata
-------RVP--Rooney-----

or
---------Mata--------
Di Maria--RVP--Rooney

Di Maria can be part of a three man midfield and then switch to being a wide man. Also, regardless of it's the left or right, we have two forward thinking fullbacks in Rafael and Shaw anyway. In a match situation, I think di Maria will pick up the CM/winger position which the others will react to. Depending on where Mata and Rooney is one can drift to the left. I think it's important Rooney gets his fair share of action up top in central zones, and that Mata is prepared to be on the left when the system requires him to be. Januzaj could do both the Mata and di Maria job as well. In regards to Rojo, if Shaw was to be caught upfield, I guess he could fill in at LB and have the DM fill in for him as well. Problem being, we don't really have a DM at the moment...

If it's 3 at the back, I don't see us fitting the four of them in tbh.
 
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If we dont buy another midfielder then the 352 is going to be here to stay all season with him in cm.

If we switch to a 433 we don't have the midfielders to use 3 in midfield with him on the wing and if he was in the middle 3 then we don't have the wingers for the system!
 
So the article suggests we will be looking at something like this?

------------------De Gea--------------
-------Jones/Evans--Rojo/Smalling--
Rafael-----------------------------Shaw
---------------Carrick/Jones----------
-------Herrera---------------Di Maria--
-------------------Mata-----------------
-----------van Persie---Rooney--------
 
TheReligion said:
So the article suggests we will be looking at something like this?

------------------De Gea--------------
-------Jones/Evans--Rojo/Smalling--
Rafael-----------------------------Shaw
---------------Carrick/Jones----------
-------Herrera---------------Di Maria--
-------------------Mata-----------------
-----------van Persie---Rooney--------
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I mentioned it here,

Theon said:
I mean like the team below - effectively making the transition from three centre backs, to two centre backs and one defensive midfielder. The two systems are similar and it allows us to keep playing Mata/Van Persie/Rooney up top, which Van Gaal clearly wants to do. The difference is pretty marginal, one of the centre backs plays 15 yards further forward as a DM, but besides that it's a similar set up with fullbacks providing width and an attacking midfielder feeding two strikers up top.

At the moment I think we're set on 3-5-2 but when we sign a top midfielder like Vidal or Carvalho it does not seem possible to play them all whilst also keeping three at the back. Once we've signed a Vidal or Carvalho it makes sense to move to diamond. This maintains a similar style to a 3-5-2 but would be a better fit in those circumstances.

United-formation-tactics.png
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But personally I think the transition the article is talking about is dependant on signing a top midfielder. If we don't sign one then I expect Van Gaal will stick with a 3-5-2, whereas if we sign a Carvalho, or even potentially someone lesser like a De Jong, then he could well make the move to a diamond.

It's a system he's played before and in those circumstances it would suit our players the best. We'll know more tomorrow when we see whether it's a 3-5-2 with Di Maria in midfield behind Mata.
 
Theon said:
I mentioned it here,




But personally I think the transition the article is talking about is dependant on signing a top midfielder. If we don't sign one then I expect Van Gaal will stick with a 3-5-2, whereas if we sign a Carvalho, or even potentially someone lesser like a De Jong, then he could well make the move to a diamond.

It's a system he's played before and in those circumstances it would suit our players the best. We'll know more tomorrow when we see whether it's a 3-5-2 with Di Maria in midfield behind Mata.
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Sorry you did mate, and in a much prettier way than I did!

It looks like Daley Blind is to be announced tomorrow for 14m. I read he is primarily a DM although I would like to think he is coming in as a squad player in the sense we are looking to offload a few players this window.
 
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