Dele 'Muhammad' Alli | Walker takes the finger from Dele | FIFA open disciplinary proceedings

GlastonSpur said:
So what's left if you exclude skills and ability from "talent"? Twinkly eyes perhaps? Or maybe the fact that a player briefly wore a United shirt? Do tell.
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Your ability is how well you are capable of doing something, talent is natural predisposition to becoming good at something. Talent alone does not mean you are good enough at something and you don't improve talent, you improve ability and if you're talented you have a better chance.

How do you survive with such lack of basic ability to grasp such simple things?
 
PickledRed said:
Thanks for the feedback.

Interesting that you identify a Barcelona player to debunk my argument. A club famous for applying excruciating attention to the most basic of skills with their daily rondo drill. Why do the planet's best set of players do something so rudimentary every day? Because that's what makes the difference - even for Messi.

Again, on a general point, you've missed the nuance of my argument. I'm not arguing that we could all make it if we worked hard or even that all professionals could achieve the same high levels of performance. However, there's no doubt that hard work and ambition to achieve real mastery (Ronaldo) - see Dan Pink - are far more important than you are suggesting. In fact, I think Dweck would regard you as having a fixed mindset...that's possibly the rudest thing I've ever said to anyone on here. :smirk:
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You mentioned Gladwell, that's what I initially pulled you up on. His 10,000 hour rule or whatever it is, is bollocks - that's all my point is.

Talented people who use their talent - will come out on top 9/10 times.

Darren Fletchers will not - no matter how hard they run around.
 
Minimalist said:
Speaking of bizarre arguments...

Yeah, loads of pre-hyped youngsters don't kick on because they just don't put in the effort. What about the ones who do put in the effort but everyone eventually realises (like the Theo Walcott's of this world) that they're just a bit limited.

It's bollocks. Talent is the difference 90% of the time - it's logical. If a 19 year old could play like Lionel Messi on the pitch, it wouldn't fecking matter how 'hard' he worked in training.
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You appear to be wilfully missing the finer point of this discussion. As for your Messi remark, I don't think I've ever read anything so reductive about Messi's outrageous application. He's a testament to hard work - that's not saying he isn't talented, of course.

You're also obsessing over one player to prove a point despite the reservoir of examples to support growth mindset and application as being primary.
 
PickledRed said:
You appear to be wilfully missing the finer point of this discussion. As for your Messi remark, I don't think I've ever read anything so reductive about Messi's outrageous application. He's a testament to hard work - that's not saying he isn't talented, of course.

You're also obsessing over one player to prove a point despite the reservoir of examples to support growth mindset and application as being primary.
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Fine, I've missed the argument if you say so - I don't care beyond saying that hard work and 'desire for growth' is not the 'major difference' between the winners in sport. It matters but it's no where near the top three things a player needs.
 
Minimalist said:
Speaking of bizarre arguments...

Yeah, loads of pre-hyped youngsters don't kick on because they just don't put in the effort. What about the ones who do put in the effort but everyone eventually realises (like the Theo Walcott's of this world) that they're just a bit limited.

It's bollocks. Talent is the difference 90% of the time - it's logical. If a 19 year old could play like Lionel Messi on the pitch, it wouldn't fecking matter how 'hard' he worked in training.
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Ok.
 
Minimalist said:
Speaking of bizarre arguments...

Yeah, loads of pre-hyped youngsters don't kick on because they just don't put in the effort. What about the ones who do put in the effort but everyone eventually realises (like the Theo Walcott's of this world) that they're just a bit limited.

It's bollocks. Talent is the difference 90% of the time - it's logical. If a 19 year old could play like Lionel Messi on the pitch, it wouldn't fecking matter how 'hard' he worked in training.
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It seems very obvious that you need both.
 
ADJUDICATOR said:
I'd be utterly astounded if Alli was as highly rated a player, as Pogba is now, in three years time.
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he most probably won't be but I wouldn't write him off just yet, he may ace it in the fecking premier league for spurs or other team. Some may disagree but EPL will always be toughest league in the world and playing for seria A best team is a bit different story but then it's hard to compare so the initial thought was always a hyperbole. He's gonna become a bit different kind of player anyway
 
Minimalist said:
Yeah, loads of pre-hyped youngsters don't kick on because they just don't put in the effort. What about the ones who do put in the effort but everyone eventually realises (like the Theo Walcott's of this world) that they're just a bit limited.
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Walcott is a semi-regular starter for one of the 10 biggest clubs in the world and his ability allows him to earn more than CEOs of many multinationals. It takes extreme elitism not to consider him a success.

You say he's a bit limited, that proves the point. There are many youngsters as limited as him or more talented who didn't make it for various reasons, including lack of hard work and dedication to improve.
 
Excellent tonight despite that dreadful miss. Him and Kane have been superb.
 
He's such a talent, but his attitude when angry reminds me of Wilshere who I hate.

Dream debut season.
 
His link up with Kane is a joy to watch. And Dier compliments him. And all three are English. So hopefully they all start this Summer.
 
The interesting thing about him is that he doesn't need the caveat of being good 'for an English player'; he's genuinely a top player for his age bracket on an international scale.

What are the foreign press saying about him?
 
Earlier in this thread I was being told that Alli had less potential than Pogba had shown at the same age. Anyone care to say the same now?
 
GlastonSpur said:
Earlier in this thread I was being told that Alli had less potential than Pogba had shown at the same age. Anyone care to say the same now?
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Call them out and ask them.
 
Not taking anything away from him, he's obviously class, but my god that miss was hilarious.
 
WhoDaGOAT said:
He's such a talent, but his attitude when angry reminds me of Wilshere who I hate.

Dream debut season.
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Tbh, don't mind his attitude. I can appreciate his competitive spirit, and we'd all love him if he played for us. Some more fire is exactly what our players need.
 
Summit said:
Call them out and ask them.
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Nah, I don't like to focus on individual posters as much as some do ... prefer to talk about football. And we all make silly claims from time to time.
 
adexkola said:
Pogba has won multiple league medals and has made it to a CL final. I like Alli, but steady on
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He isn't saying Alli is better now, but better than Pogba was at the age Allis is now.
 
adexkola said:
Pogba has won multiple league medals and has made it to a CL final. I like Alli, but steady on
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Alli only turned 20 a few days ago - he's achieved more than Pogba had by the same age. That much is so obvious it's barely worth arguing. Even if your eyes deceive you, just look at the stats concerning goals scored, assists and Prem appearances.
 
Sylar said:
His link up with Kane is a joy to watch. And Dier compliments him. And all three are English. So hopefully they all start this Summer.
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100% have to, all three are the future of the national team. I can't stand the idea of wilshere taking the defensive role, even if henderson was fit it has to be dier. Kane always gets chances and will always score a good percentage of them. Alli I think has the highest ceiling of them all, absolutely exceptional talent, he can play centre mid or number 10 but rarely has an indifferent game. Quite often for spurs Eriksen cuts inside, so Kane tries to exploit the space created on the left and in this case Alli runs straight into the centre where you would expect a striker to be, did that tonight so effectively, nightmare for defences.
 
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