Declan Rice

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Inigo Montoya said:
He isn't. Looked quality at AM but seems to have dropped off
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Such a contrast to that player at Anfield a year ago. But it's relatively common for players to need a year to settle when arriving to the Premier League, especially midfielders - Fred is a good example of the contrast in form time to settle can produce.

I'm sure with 12 months of English football under his belt, a proper preseason and an injury-free run in the team Arsenal will see a return to Partey's AM levels. Hopefully the same logic can apply to Donny.
 
cyberman said:
Modern football is moving away fron DMs anyway. We dont need to have one
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Fabinho, Casemeiro, Kimmich, Busquets, Kante and Brozovic suggest different. All the best teams have a defensive midfielder as it allows all of their attacking players the licence to do their thing without defensive shackles so if we want to unleash the Fernandes/Pogba duo or add Grealish then a pure out and out defensive midfielder is definitely needed.
 
davidmichael said:
Fabinho, Casemeiro, Kimmich, Busquets, Kante and Brozovic suggest different. All the best teams have a defensive midfielder as it allows all of their attacking players the licence to do their thing without defensive shackles so if we want to unleash the Fernandes/Pogba duo or add Grealish then a pure out and out defensive midfielder is definitely needed.
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They arent really DMs though, especially Kimmich. Hell wasnt it fecking Thiago that sat deeper for them? Buaquets has been destroyed and overran on a yearly basis over the last 5 years ffs! Kante is also the definition of a box to box player.
Modern midfielders need to do more than what Rice brings to the team. Hes just a lightening rod for the press at the elite level.
 
He'd be ok for a fee around 35M. Nothing above that, his defensive contribution is good but he offers so little in attack. I think we should be looking for an all round player that can defend but also create some chances.
 
He’s a very good little player and ready to make the step up, similar in that respect to Kante before joining Chelsea.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
feck me @Red00012, I don’t think I’ve ever made a negative post previously about him. Not that I can recall as I love his attitude and his one on one ability.

If calling the technical side of his game out is agenda posting, well every single post on this forum is agenda based.

I’ve actually just had to check my previous posts and well, they are defending him, calling him a decent buy and well, I’m on page 2 and yet to find a negative one. “Agenda”, :lol: get a fecking grip of yourself man.
Oh wait, got a negative one, although it does say I think he’s a very very good defender.
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I’ve no interest in going back through your posts pal :lol: Just saying no need to be knit picking one moment in 120 mins where he sliced a clearance over the bar . It wasn’t as bad as you make it out to be.
Also you’ve written him off already when he’s clearly showing improvement on last season. He’s 23 and it’s his second season at the club.
 
davidmichael said:
Fabinho, Casemeiro, Kimmich, Busquets, Kante and Brozovic suggest different. All the best teams have a defensive midfielder as it allows all of their attacking players the licence to do their thing without defensive shackles so if we want to unleash the Fernandes/Pogba duo or add Grealish then a pure out and out defensive midfielder is definitely needed.
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These fellas can actually play football. I can’t speak for Brozovic as I don’t recall even seeing him play but Busquets is one of the best deep-lying midfielders to play the game over the past two decades and Kimmich is one of the best players in Europe. I take your wider point, but let’s not pretend that our solution to having this defensive midfielder you speak of is Declan Rice. Fabinho, for one, is a significantly better footballer and he’s just down the road.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Well except for the fact that Kante was the best midfielder in the league for the league winners, before joining Chelsea.
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You’re right, Kante was even better and more established, but in hindsight he was an obvious signing for all the top sides yet Chelsea had a clear run at him for some reason. I think with Rice you’re getting a top quality player who will only get better and be there for a decade.
 
His price is an issue. He has areas of game that need improving, he's only 22, so that's normal. What he does instinctively have though is very good positional awareness, if a defender is up field or caught of position he invariably is there to clean up. Seems deceptively quick as well, on one breakaway he tracked Greenwood and stayed with him. He's a player who could play that dm role on his own. Right now Fred can't be trusted, he needs McT or Matic alongside him. As much as I think he would improve here as a player, I feel for that kind of money we'd need to address central defence first
 
JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo said:
Stop it. Rice is a much better passer. If Fred could pass he would be the perfect player
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Neither are good enough at passing the ball to a standard I’d expect to see from a United midfielder. This is my overarching point. Fred at least has more variety and is much more purposeful in what he attempts to do.
 
Kag said:
These fellas can actually play football. I can’t speak for Brozovic as I don’t recall even seeing him play but Busquets is one of the best deep-lying midfielders to play the game over the past two decades and Kimmich is one of the best players in Europe. I take your wider point, but let’s not pretend that our solution to having this defensive midfielder you speak of is Declan Rice. Fabinho, for one, is a significantly better footballer and he’s just down the road.
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This is sort of my concern with Rice too. He's got a lot of qualities I admire but his ability on the ball, compared to what will be his peers if he were to join us, would be lacking. He's a decent passer but he's not as good as Pogba or Matic, nor is he as good at passing as the other names you've mentioned. I think we should be looking someone with outstanding passing, I'd actually say it should be the quality we're looking at first due to our playing style.

One thing I have noticed is that McTominay's range has drastically improved and so has Fred's, even though his still isn't great, which might be the result of good coaching which leads me to wonder if we could help improve Rice in that regard. Even Pogba and Matic's long range passing, which they were already very good at, seems sharp and they regularly find their intended target when switching play.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Well there you have it, as expected.

Plenty of you love a limited player as long as he’s tough and works hard. Each to their own.
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All footballers have limitations. AWB is a defensive monster and improving every single game in the attack. Just remember that he does what he does without a right winger to combine with, too.

EDIT: Not saying this as justification to sign/not sign Rice BTW, I haven't watched him enough to give an opinion.
 
My fear with him is that like Schneiderlin, the surrounding players on the pitch won't really see him as being worth giving the ball in the buildup and we'll effectively end up putting even more pressure on whoever is the #8, the fullbacks and center backs and even keeper (when we're pressed) as part of the buildup.

When I watch him play, I don't see a midfielder who wants to get on the ball. Noble does. Soucek is a much better one touch passer so even though he's not a great passer he quickens the tempo more often.

I like the rest of Rice's game, but at his price tag, if we're not signing him to play CB I think he's probably a 30-40M signing and he'd probably cost like 60+.

So yeah, not sure I see why we wouldn't just sign Phillips or Neuhaus or another option.
 
NoPace said:
My fear with him is that like Schneiderlin, the surrounding players on the pitch won't really see him as being worth giving the ball in the buildup and we'll effectively end up putting even more pressure on whoever is the #8, the fullbacks and center backs and even keeper (when we're pressed) as part of the buildup.

When I watch him play, I don't see a midfielder who wants to get on the ball. Noble does. Soucek is a much better one touch passer so even though he's not a great passer he quickens the tempo more often.

I like the rest of Rice's game, but at his price tag, if we're not signing him to play CB I think he's probably a 30-40M signing and he'd probably cost like 60+.

So yeah, not sure I see why we wouldn't just sign Phillips or Neuhaus or another option.
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Indeed. Phillips isn’t good enough either but he’d be a much better option in the current United midfield than Rice would. At least he can get his foot on the ball and play some football. Even then, he’s not enough; certainly not yet.
 
JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo said:
Stop it. Rice is a much better passer. If Fred could pass he would be the perfect player
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Is he though?

Fred makes over 30% more passes per game, more long passes, more attacking passes, more expected assists, and yet still has a higher completion rate. Obviously the team that surrounds them and the tactics have a big influence, but I haven't seen anything in the (admittedly few) times I've watched Rice that shows any significant passing ability. Literally the only particularly impressive pass I've seen him do in those games was one very good cross when he got forward into an attacking position on the left.

Fred's supposed lack of passing ability is massively overstated on here. Obviously he's not great but he's still much better than some people try to make out. Rice might go on to be better when he's surrounded by a better team and as he matures, but saying he's already a 'much better passer' is going overboard.
 
davidmichael said:
Fabinho, Casemeiro, Kimmich, Busquets, Kante and Brozovic suggest different. All the best teams have a defensive midfielder as it allows all of their attacking players the licence to do their thing without defensive shackles so if we want to unleash the Fernandes/Pogba duo or add Grealish then a pure out and out defensive midfielder is definitely needed.
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Most of those play next to another midfielder who also does a lot of defensive work. Whether that is another defensive midfielder, a deep-lying playmaker, or a box to box midfielder with a high workload. Most sides tend to play two midfielders who are defensively solid, but of course they do tend to provide more on the ball than what Fred and McTominay together do.

This idea that some people have that we can get one top DM and that will allow us to regularly play Pogba in a midfield two (if he stays) is going to end in disappointment I feel. Even for France (where matches are normally slower and against lower quality opposition than in the league) and he was playing next to Kante at his peak they still had to play a third hard working midfielder on the wing.

Do we need a top midfielder who is both defensively good and a better passer than what we currently have? Yes. But it shouldn't be with the idea that we can then play Bruno and another attacking midfielder. Whoever partners the new guy will still need to do a significant amount of defensive work, so unless we are going to buy two midfielders it'll have to be Fred or McTominay for now. Then if that's not good enough we can get sign the second guy in a year or two.
 
MadDogg said:
Is he though?

Fred makes over 30% more passes per game, more long passes, more attacking passes, more expected assists, and yet still has a higher completion rate. Obviously the team that surrounds them and the tactics have a big influence, but I haven't seen anything in the (admittedly few) times I've watched Rice that shows any significant passing ability. Literally the only particularly impressive pass I've seen him do in those games was one very good cross when he got forward into an attacking position on the left.

Fred's supposed lack of passing ability is massively overstated on here. Obviously he's not great but he's still much better than some people try to make out. Rice might go on to be better when he's surrounded by a better team and as he matures, but saying he's already a 'much better passer' is going overboard.
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In the 1 minute it took to check on the official Prem website, Rice has a better pass completion percentage, more passes forward, more crosses than Fred. Where are you getting your data?
 
SAFMUTD said:
He'd be ok for a fee around 35M. Nothing above that, his defensive contribution is good but he offers so little in attack. I think we should be looking for an all round player that can defend but also create some chances.
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35m would have been fair and I agree, but West Ham would think if we can pay 50m for Fred, why not pay at least the same for Rice.
 
JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo said:
In the 1 minute it took to check on the official Prem website, Rice has a better pass completion percentage, more passes forward, more crosses than Fred. Where are you getting your data?
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https://fbref.com/en/players/b853e0ad/matchlogs/s10728/passing/Fred-Match-Logs
https://fbref.com/en/players/1c7012b8/matchlogs/s10728/passing/Declan-Rice-Match-Logs

Fred 87.4% completion rate, Rice 85.3%.

Fred passes it long slightly more (with a higher success rate again) and has 35 passes that led to somebody attempting a shot (34 for Rice) despite playing significantly less. He has also passed it into the attacking third more times despite that gametime difference. Rice does have more crosses. Like I said the teams they play on will obviously have an impact but Rice certainly isn't 'much better'. Fred is better than you are giving him credit for.
 
JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo said:
In the 1 minute it took to check on the official Prem website, Rice has a better pass completion percentage, more passes forward, more crosses than Fred. Where are you getting your data?
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Squawka has Fred ahead on most metrics this season.
 
His price tag is a massive issue, IMO. He has shown nowhere near being a £50m + midfielder as of yet, he may get there in a season or two but why risk paying that now? It's not like his price could jump up that much. There's a pricing ceiling on these types of players, so waiting until full potential is reached before forking out is the way to go.
 
Personally, I do not think that Rice for any more than £30m is an upgrade. His stats and numbers are not too far from Fred's numbers.

We have to remember he is playing in a park the bus team, very defensive minded where he is alongside 3/4 players. At Manutd, he is going to be isolated more often than not. Can he handle being the sole DM with full backs pushed up?

Can he receive the ball from CB and play progressive passes? If he cannot do that, we are better off getting an out and out DM like Ndidi.
 
Kostov said:
35m would have been fair and I agree, but West Ham would think if we can pay 50m for Fred, why not pay at least the same for Rice.
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I agree West Ham would surely ask for above 50M, so I say we look elsewhere I dont think he's worth it.
 
It's easy to claim he does "more forward passes" well no bloody wonder when they're sitting in their box defending half the time. Every pass has to go forwards.

Being a midfielder for WHU or us is a very different proposition.

The best comparison is how Rice has played for England, and he doesn't look special.
 
Adam-Utd said:
It's easy to claim he does "more forward passes" well no bloody wonder when they're sitting in their box defending half the time. Every pass has to go forwards.

Being a midfielder for WHU or us is a very different proposition.

The best comparison is how Rice has played for England, and he doesn't look special.
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To be fair this can be said for Fred - an energetic midfielder that follows the ball, tackles and initiates a counter attack by a pass forward.

The pass aspect is arguably the least hardest when you have just broken up an opposition attack.
 
Bebestation said:
To be fair this can be said for Fred - an energetic midfielder that follows the ball, tackles and initiates a counter attack by a pass forward.

The pass aspect is arguably the least hardest when you have just broken up an opposition attack.
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Not really, we have teams pinned back more than the other way around.

Often Fred's job is to keep the ball moving, going from side to side to get teams working and probing for space.

People that use "he only passes sideways" as a criticism is just stupid, that only really matters if he fails to make the probing pass when it's available.

He's more than capable of doing that type of pass, just look at free kick Cavani won for Fernandes v Liverpool
 
Kag said:
Neither are good enough at passing the ball to a standard I’d expect to see from a United midfielder. This is my overarching point. Fred at least has more variety and is much more purposeful in what he attempts to do.
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What a load of bull. Does he pass less better than Kante, Matic, Rodri and Fernandinho?
 
Adam-Utd said:
Not really, we have teams pinned back more than the other way around.

Often Fred's job is to keep the ball moving, going from side to side to get teams working and probing for space.

People that use "he only passes sideways" as a criticism is just stupid, that only really matters if he fails to make the probing pass when it's available.

He's more than capable of doing that type of pass, just look at free kick Cavani won for Fernandes v Liverpool
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I'm not sure how passing is harder when the team is sat back because all of the team mates are within your reach aren't they?

Compare to Rice where the team mates may be half attacking and half sat back, the options seem limited.
 
Red00012 said:
I’ve no interest in going back through your posts pal :lol:
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Ah so you had no idea of my regular stance and called it an “agenda” from one post, and now you pop back in just to confirm that stupidity :wenger:
Do you even know what an “agenda” is man or have you just heard it a few times here on the caf?
 
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Bebestation said:
I'm not sure how passing is harder when the team is sat back because all of the team mates are within your reach aren't they?

Compare to Rice where the team mates may be half attacking and half sat back, the options seem limited.
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open space?

If you're countering then passing forward is always easier. If you're playing against a parked bus you aren't passing forwards unless you get a clear opportunity.

Yes passing sideways or backwards is easier, but then what you shouldn't really use either of those stats in a judgement of what makes a good passer IMO.

I think it's fair to say Fred is a decent passer but he has an error in him, and when he does it looks worse than usual.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Ah so you had no idea of my regular stance and called it an “agenda” from one post, and now you pop back in just to confirm that stupidity :wenger:
Do you even know what an “agenda” is man or have you just heard it a few times here on the caf?
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Funny how you chose to answer a part of my post and not the other part:wenger:
Finding a minuscule little error and calling it almost a goal would suggest you have some sort of issue no ? By saying he won’t improve at 23 years of age while only been at the club 18 months where he is still developing as a player is probably one of the deluded things I’ve come across
 
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From what I have seen, he is a tad overrated by some, especially Hammers fans.

But he might bring some balance and stability to the midfield and, I hear, he has good leadership skills, which we are sorely lacking in CM.
 
Adam-Utd said:
It's easy to claim he does "more forward passes" well no bloody wonder when they're sitting in their box defending half the time. Every pass has to go forwards.

Being a midfielder for WHU or us is a very different proposition.

The best comparison is how Rice has played for England, and he doesn't look special.
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I get your point , but his style of play isn't one for looking special, he's an effective defensive screen, there to let the special players shine. I wouldn't hold England form against him, we were prepared to pay around 100 mill for Sancho and he hasn't exactly shone in international games. I think the general consensus is Rice is a good young player but with improvements needed in his game. Problem is West Ham will want the kind of fee you'd pay for a fully developed world class player.I don't see us pursuing him.
 
poleglass red said:
I get your point , but his style of play isn't one for looking special, he's an effective defensive screen, there to let the special players shine. I wouldn't hold England form against him, we were prepared to pay around 100 mill for Sancho and he hasn't exactly shone in international games. I think the general consensus is Rice is a good young player but with improvements needed in his game. Problem is West Ham will want the kind of fee you'd pay for a fully developed world class player.I don't see us pursuing him.
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If he's not able to offer anything beyond the basic requirements of a defensive midfielder, then he needs to be incredible at what he does - which he isn't.
 
Pexbo said:
What ever happened to Nigel Reo-Coker?
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He was commentating on River Plate vs Palmieras for the BBC the other week. Along with BBC's stream playing at 1.2x speed for some reason it gave the game a real other worldly quality.
 
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