Declan Rice

Status
Not open for further replies.
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
I just don’t see it, not for the price.

I just struggle to believe you can’t find a player elsewhere that does what he does for half the price. Nothing about him is “exceptional”.

I might be wrong, I don’t watch him anywhere near enough.
Click to expand...
I disagree. A PL proven player is much more vital. He’s already used to the physicality and tempo of our league. I think he’d do even better in a better team.

Hypothetically speaking, if we are keeping Pogba who will most likely play as part of a midfield 2, Rice would be good with him.
 
Adam-Utd said:
He's barely on upgrade on what we already have to be honest. For 60m+ we need somebody who's better, not another option.
Click to expand...

60m is definitely lot, might take him for 50m though. But he’s an upgrade in my opinion. He offers something we don’t have.

  1. Fred & McT defensively are very good but they also have flaw defensively which Fred is not good when one on one (can get dribble past by skilful who can dribble like Thiago and physical strong who can dribble like Loftus Cheek), while McT tends to conceded cheap fouls. This is what Rice can provide balance, winning tackles without conceded cheap fouls and good in one on one.
  2. He can play as holding midfield with composure on the ball so he’s Matic‘s direct replacement. That role & ability is something we don’t have at the moment.
  3. Not having fit holding midfielder could be the reason why Ole hasn’t play VDB enough. Ole played Matic when he was caretaker manager with Herrera as CM or box to box and Pogba more as no 10. This also means McT can play more in his strength to box to box role.
  4. Even if we end up stick with double pivot more, I think having holding midfielder will still provide flexibility in our formation. We can switch to diamond which something Ole had used times and times before.
 
LonelyFire said:
What do you think he offers that we don’t already have? As a box to box player, I don’t rate him any better than McTominay (interestingly a few Liverpool supporting mates of mine have said exactly the same). As I said, the glaring omission in our squad is the deep lying playmaker role and it’s hilarious if people think Rice is that player. As for being the most promising midfielder for England, I’m not sure I share the sentiment but as you say, it’s a low bar.
Click to expand...

Fred / Mctomminay can't hold the midfield on their own in the shape of a 4-3-3 Rice can. He offers more defensive discipline and maturity and the biggest contributor is (potentially) we can finally go into games with two advanced 8's offering the team more of a presence in possession of the midfield. Rice opens doors tactically, if the managers intention is to play a double pivot however as a preference, we are better off looking elsewhere.
 
I think if we are going for this lad then I’ll just have to trust the process. I doubt carrick looked amazing at West Ham either. Rice seems to be doing well in an ok team and on paper he’s future England captain material. He’s still far too expensive at 80 million but I don’t think he’ll cost that much in the end if he wants to come. It’s essential we upgrade the position either way. It’s a major weakness that stops us dominating games.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Yeah we won’t be doing that.
Click to expand...

On what basis ? remember Ole reverted to a double pivot because of the lack of options in the midfield it was circumstantial.

Our preferred formation back then was a 3 midfield consisting of Herrera, Matic, Pogba. It's totally not out of the question for us to go back especially if it helps us stabilise our build up play which for the last few months has been very lethargic.
 
After the last few games, surprised anyone sees the need to spunk money on this lad. No where near a priority.
 
passing-wind said:
On what basis ? remember Ole reverted to a double pivot because of the lack of options in the midfield it was circumstantial.

Our preferred formation back then was a 3 midfield consisting of Herrera, Matic, Pogba. It's totally not out of the question for us to go back especially if it helps us stabilise our build up play which for the last few months has been very lethargic.
Click to expand...

Bruno resembles nothing like those 3 though, and Bruno will play.
 
Good player but what we need is proven world class ability. I'd say same for the next right winger and CB. He's appears an upgrade on Scott but I can't say for certain that I wouldn't be saying that if it was Scott in a West Ham shirt and not Rice. Maybe West Ham you'd see more of the Leeds Scott? Part of the problem is generally we are harder on our own players, you watch them with a critical eye (especially when the teams is losing). Been bitten too many times of late wanting other teams players.....
 
I don't believe he can play in a single pivot and I wouldn't expect him to either full-time. I think what people mean when they say playing with two #8s is having another #8 next to him (Rice) in a double pivot who will provide a higher level of ability on the ball and play in a more box to box role and become the conduit for both defense and attack. On the ball the box to box midfielder will help with the build up phase and get forward to support the attackers and fullbacks. Off the ball he will have to retreat and take up position next to the DM to maintain structure and take part in the transition again.

So having someone like Florian Neuhaus in a box to box role next to Rice would be ideal. Or if the coaching staff felt Hannibal Mejbri is ready to make the step up then he could be groomed to play that role and his potential at a similar age is bigger than what Neuhaus showed at the same age. But we would then have to be patient and I'm not sure our fans will be patient.
 
Last edited:
passing-wind said:
Fred / Mctomminay can't hold the midfield on their own in the shape of a 4-3-3 Rice can. He offers more defensive discipline and maturity and the biggest contributor is (potentially) we can finally go into games with two advanced 8's offering the team more of a presence in possession of the midfield. Rice opens doors tactically, if the managers intention is to play a double pivot however as a preference, we are better off looking elsewhere.
Click to expand...

You know West Ham have been shit most of the time besides this season. Not sure why we would want to sign players that look good in poor teams. Fred and Scott are playing for Man Utd and that means it's just different to any other team in the PL. The level of expectation is just different which means it comes with a different set of expectations. Ask Harry what that feels like....
 
Adnan said:
I don't believe he can play in a single pivot and wouldn't expect that either full-time. I think what people mean when they say playing with two #8s is having another #8 next to him (Rice) in a double pivot who will provide a higher level of ability on the ball and play in a more box to box role and become the conduit for both defense and attack. On the ball the box to box midfielder will help with the build up phase and get forward to support the attackers and fullbacks. Off the ball he will have to retreat and take up position next to the DM to maintain structure and take part in the transition again.

So having someone like Florian Neuhaus in a box to box role next to Rice would be ideal. Or if the coaching staff felt Hannibal Mejbri is ready to make the step up then he could be groomed to play that role and his potential at a similar age is bigger than what Neuhaus showed at the same age. But we would then have to be patient and I'm not sure our fans will be patient.
Click to expand...

What makes you think that way? Before when Pellegrini was still manager, Pellegrini his former manager made statement that he’s a holding midfielder. ‘’So I think that is a player that – I can’t say he will have a brilliant future – but he is pressing and at this moment he is the best holding midfielder of England.”
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
What makes you think that way? Before when Pellegrini was still manager, Pellegrini his former manager made statement that he’s a holding midfielder. ‘’So I think that is a player that – I can’t say he will have a brilliant future – but he is pressing and at this moment he is the best holding midfielder of England.”
Click to expand...
He is a holding midfielder no question but he will still need support defensively off the ball or we'll get over-run in midfield if we play with two advanced #8s like some have suggested similarly to how Man City have played under Guardiola at times in the last few years.

The best approach IMO is always to look for balance. And the most balanced approach would be to have a holding midfielder, creative box to box and someone who plays more as the AM in a more advanced role.
 
Holding midfielder is needed to get the best out of our current squad for next season in my opinion. Personally after witnessing Matic this season, I no longer think Matic is good enough for us at his current age and replacing him is one of the most important transfer move for next season.

Fred Rice VDB
Bruno

OR

Rice Fred
Bruno

OR

Rice
Bruno VDB/McT​
 
I actually think a creative box to box in a double pivot would improve us more than signing a DM as things stand.
 
Adnan said:
I actually think a creative box to box in a double pivot would improve us more than signing a DM as things stand.
Click to expand...

Don‘t you think we have too many box to box already like McT with VDB is considered as creative box to box?
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
Don‘t you think we have too many box to box already like McT with VDB is considered as creative box to box?
Click to expand...
I think we have quantity rather than quality hence it affects our ability to transition play effectively. If Ole sees VdB as that player then I will sit back and be patient and see how things work out because in the long-term it might suit us better with Hannibal Mejbri potentially being a viable candidate for the role. But if I'm honest, I'm happy with Fred being our DM for now rather than spending huge money on Rice which I feel could be better spent in other positions in a market affected by Covid.
 
Adnan said:
I think we have quantity rather than quality hence it affects our ability to transition play effectively. If Ole sees VdB as that player then I will sit back and be patient and see how things work out because in the long-term it might suit us better with Hannibal Mejbri potentially being a viable candidate for the role. But if I'm honest, I'm happy with Fred being our DM for now rather than spending huge money on Rice which I feel could be better spent in other positions in a market affected by Covid.
Click to expand...

I'm actually confused about what is your view on choosing creative box to box over holding midfielder whether it's for short or long term. In my opinion, based on this season's progress so far, we should be looking for to improve our current squad to go toe to toe in the league against Liverpool with VVD fit & Man City. And based on the current squad, what we don't have is holding midfielder because Matic is no longer good enough at his age.

Box to box is a hard-working with good all-round abilities, they are capable to tracking back to make tackles and blocks and also carry the ball forward or run to the opponents box to try to score. That's basically McTominay especially what he has shown against Leeds United. VDB is also in the category which shown the stats below (7 goals and 3 assists in 18 games as box to box in 19/20). While Fred is more of a CM, he doesn't offer end product but he offers passing through the line from deep area, energy to press and defensively good & discipline but he has big weakness with his composure when making passes and defending a one on one situation to let players dribble past through him with physical strength and dribbling ability.

In my opinion a holding midfielder who has composure on the ball and can defend one on one situation without conceded cheap fouls too often will be able to get the best out of Fred, McT & VDB.

7HuxTVV.png
 
Adnan said:
I think we have quantity rather than quality hence it affects our ability to transition play effectively. If Ole sees VdB as that player then I will sit back and be patient and see how things work out because in the long-term it might suit us better with Hannibal Mejbri potentially being a viable candidate for the role. But if I'm honest, I'm happy with Fred being our DM for now rather than spending huge money on Rice which I feel could be better spent in other positions in a market affected by Covid.
Click to expand...

There is no doubt that Fred is capable of showing that energy and legs in the midfield but still feel we need a proper CDM alongside him, however you make a very good point about needing to consider whether we need to spend the money in the other areas of priority. I find myself keep changing my mind on which is the most important positions to address in the summer so this is certainly a very tricky but important decision to make.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
I'm actually confused about what is your view on choosing creative box to box over holding midfielder whether it's for short or long term. In my opinion, based on this season's progress so far, we should be looking for to improve our current squad to go toe to toe in the league against Liverpool with VVD fit & Man City. And based on the current squad, what we don't have is holding midfielder because Matic is no longer good enough at his age.

Box to box is a hard-working with good all-round abilities, they are capable to tracking back to make tackles and blocks and also carry the ball forward or run to the opponents box to try to score. That's basically McTominay especially what he has shown against Leeds United. VDB is also in the category which shown the stats below (7 goals and 3 assists in 18 games as box to box in 19/20). While Fred is more of a CM, he doesn't offer end product but he offers passing through the line from deep area, energy to press and defensively very good & discipline but he has big weakness with his composure when making passes and defending a one on one situation to let players dribble past through him with physical strength and dribbling ability.

In my opinion a holding midfielder who has composure on the ball and can defend one on one situation without conceded fouls too often will be able to get the best out of Fred, McT & VDB.

7HuxTVV.png
Click to expand...
You could be right and a DM with good positional and line breaking ability could be what this team needs. But I'm not sure Fred and McTominay would improve our build up play in the #8 role to the requisite level to challenge for the top honours.

I'm also not sure if Rice is someone that will provide the incisive line breaking passes from a deeper role. Brozovic and Locatelli who both ply their trade in Italy seem far more capable in that regard and seem like players who we should target IMO.

But my opinion is subjective so please take it with a pinch of salt.
 
I have a feeling he’ll rise for one year or two, big club buying him for big money, and then a steep decline.
 
Adnan said:
You could be right and a DM with good positional and line breaking ability could be what this team needs. But I'm not sure Fred and McTominay would improve our build up play in the #8 role to the requisite level to challenge for the top honours.

I'm also not sure if Rice is someone that will provide the incisive line breaking passes from a deeper role. Brozovic and Locatelli who both ply their trade in Italy seem far more capable in that regard and seem like players who we should target IMO.

But my opinion is subjective so please take it with a pinch of salt.
Click to expand...

Football is about playing from the back nowdays means two ball playing centre back are needed and also part of their role to provide the incisive line breaking passes from a deeper role. Fred is also underrated in this aspect due to his erratic play that tends to give the ball away but when the passes were on, he always aim to play the incisive line breaking passes.

I don't expect my holding midfielder to be as good as Carrick or Alonso on the ball since very rarely you will find one nowdays but I expect him to be much better on the ball than Ndidi. I don't think Rice is anywhere near Carrick or Alonso on the ball but he's much better than Ndidi on the ball. Whether he is the choice or no, it's down to the manager but if Ole thinks he is the right man, I can understand of his choice because Rice is unlike Ndidi on the ball.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Quick one then, Bruno or Maddison in Jan 2020...?

You’d 100% have gone with the Leicester man right? PL proven is often a load of tosh.
Click to expand...
To put things into perspective, with respect to Bruno, who says Maddison couldn’t have had the same impact with us?

With all of Bruno’s qualities, I still think he loses possession more often than Maddison.

But again, just to be clear, I love Bruno. However I could find some room to justify Maddison too.

We might have gone for Maddison too but Bruno cost less.
 
What kind of player is Soucek? Is he like Fred who is a box to box? Could he hold a CDM position or does that reduce his goalscoring ability.
 
Rice is an upgrade on McTominay and Fred. I'd suggest that we would get away with only needing to play one holding midfielder if it was him.
 
He's surprised me with his improvement but £70m is just too much money to spend on a DM when we have pressing needs up front.
 
Hawks2008 said:
He's surprised me with his improvement but £70m is just too much money to spend on a DM when we have pressing needs up front.
Click to expand...

Yeah I have to admit it does feel like a lot and perhaps need to look at the european market for someone instead
 
passing-wind said:
Fred / Mctomminay can't hold the midfield on their own in the shape of a 4-3-3 Rice can. He offers more defensive discipline and maturity and the biggest contributor is (potentially) we can finally go into games with two advanced 8's offering the team more of a presence in possession of the midfield. Rice opens doors tactically, if the managers intention is to play a double pivot however as a preference, we are better off looking elsewhere.
Click to expand...

We are not going to all of a sudden change to 433. Secondly, if we were to go with that formation, you get a deep lying playmaker. Rice is not that.
 
Name Changed said:
Rice is an upgrade on McTominay and Fred. I'd suggest that we would get away with only needing to play one holding midfielder if it was him.
Click to expand...

He’s not. Secondly, we play 2 because our central defenders get exposed by full backs constantly being high up the pitch. Rice isn’t going to change that.
 
LonelyFire said:
He’s not. Secondly, we play 2 because our central defenders get exposed by full backs constantly being high up the pitch. Rice isn’t going to change that.
Click to expand...
We play to because none of them is a proper CDM, with the required instincts and tactical nous. Fred will run his guts out and cut so many balls, win tackles, but will get bypasses with a single touch and you find attackers running directly at out CBs unopposed, same with McT. That's why I feel a top CDM is vital for us going forward.
 
Kostov said:
We play to because none of them is a proper CDM, with the required instincts and tactical nous. Fred will run his guts out and cut so many balls, win tackles, but will get bypasses with a single touch and you find attackers running directly at out CBs unopposed, same with McT. That's why I feel a top CDM is vital for us going forward.
Click to expand...

Bruno is a proper number 10, I don’t see any way that we’re gonna be playing with a single defensive midfielder and a number 10.
 
Kostov said:
We play to because none of them is a proper CDM, with the required instincts and tactical nous. Fred will run his guts out and cut so many balls, win tackles, but will get bypasses with a single touch and you find attackers running directly at out CBs unopposed, same with McT. That's why I feel a top CDM is vital for us going forward.
Click to expand...

Matic is a proper CDM. We’ve never played with a single pivot with him. Rice isn’t going to make a difference with the defence - that exists because the personnel we have are too slow so need protecting. Rice would just cause another problem with unadventurous/slow passing from midfield.

He’s not the answer. Certainly not at the price West Ham will be asking.
 
Although Declan Rice would improve our regular first choice starting line-up i'd much rather we went out and purchased Manuel Locatelli who i feel is a step up from Rice.. He would be more suitable to compliment our other players all round as a deep lying defensive playmaker in a similar role to which Michael Carrick was so effective and influential.. He would also be attained at a much lower price.
 
The last thing we need to do is get rinsed by another club for a just okay player like Leicester did to us with Maguire.
 
I prefer Bissouma. I think he looks a real gem at Brighton. No way he will still be there next season.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Bruno is a proper number 10, I don’t see any way that we’re gonna be playing with a single defensive midfielder and a number 10.
Click to expand...
We can imo, a CDM like Rice, Bruno, and a B2B balanced midfielder who can contribute in attack and play his part in defense. I have criticized Pogba in the past, but in the last couple of matches I've been surprised by his application and he has played very well as that second B2B midfielder. I also think Donny can play in that role, he was very good in the CL when he got employed deeper against the Turkish side.

LonelyFire said:
Matic is a proper CDM. We’ve never played with a single pivot with him. Rice isn’t going to make a difference with the defence - that exists because the personnel we have are too slow so need protecting. Rice would just cause another problem with unadventurous/slow passing from midfield.

He’s not the answer. Certainly not at the price West Ham will be asking.
Click to expand...
Matic is a proper CDM who is long past his best, if we had the 26 year old Matic in our squad, we won't be talking about needing another CDM. Maguire isn't the only slow CB in the league and it really isn't the problem regarding our defense and defensive shape, even with both Fred and McT we tend to get exposed down the middle very often.

Regarding the price, yes I agree that West Ham will want too much, but regarding his quality and profile Rice will make a good fit.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.