The Southgate Effect? That was kind of his position as well.
Declan Rice
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I think he'd be an upgrade on McTominay and Fred and probably more naturally suited to play alongside Pogba, similar to Matic. I think he is the right profile of midfielder we should be looking at, but I'm still to be convinced about how good he actually is. If West Ham get relegated then he may be available at a sensible price, otherwise it would be silly to pay the ridiculous sum West Ham would demand.
Disagree.
Any midfield player at premiership level should have good passing ability. Even more so at a top club. Even more so for us.
I agree that we need a better "Anchor Man" as you called it, we need an upgrade on Matic and we could certainly do with more competition for Fred and McTominey.
I think all 3 that we have are good, but certainly can be improved upon. I dont think Rice is a serious upgrade on any of them, but argue he would improve the overall squad.
I cant work out if its a good or bad thing Rice can play at DM and CB, Jack of two trades master of none?
I dont think the passing quality we have is good enough. Fred and McTom could be described as Ok and Matic i would say is Basic, we dont have enough forward passes from deep midfield, and even CB distribution is poor from Lindelof in particular. Rice seems on par with the ball with what we have, arguably worse. He's very very safe and just plonks it sideways and backwards. He doesnt influence the game enough bar interceptions, which is handy but i wouldnt even put him in the elite bracket at breaking up the play. For me, Rice is a bit of a nothing player.
Could Carrick coach him and make him better? I suspect so. Rice may also up his game when placed around better players. I agree, there is a case for him but for me it's weak. His value is sky high and when your unsure if your a CB or DM, then i see no appeal in us signing him.
Your formation suggestion also made me chuckle a little. I had to read your post three or four times. I like out of the box thinking and that certainly falls into that category.
Appreciate the logic, but for me that'll never work
Stop going for ex-Chelsea players, it never really ends well for you.
I disagree. While I think we need an anchor man like you said, we also need a DM that is composed, and very good at evading press, bringing the ball out from defense and playing forward passes
Dont see where he fills a need in midfield, we absolutely suck at moving the ball out of the defensive third and need a strong passer at the base of midfield. Rice isn't that.
I think a little tweaking in his game and he could be a possibility. The old Keane mantra of forward passing could be worked into his game more. He still tends to play the safe pass too often, that could be age, the fact he's playing in a poor team and once they lose possession they are in trouble, maybe his manager has it drilled into to him to not lose the ball. He doesn't need to be anything fancy, just win it, and use the outlets we have on the wing ie Rashford and hopefully Sancho. We like Pogba and Fernandes further forward but they will drop deep at times esp when we are defending so he has that outlet as well. As someone else said he's actually decent carrying the ball, another aspect that would be improved playing with better coaching and players.
Agree. Look at Liverpool. Every single player is a good passer of the ball. It is a minimum criteria. That used to be us.
Henderson, Fabinho, Milner and Keita. They average a completion percentage ranging from 85 % to 88 % in the PL. And the average distance of a pass for these players are 1200 yards. Progressive distance is 276 yards. Winjaldum is the only player below 1000 yards, but his completion rate is 91 %.
Our midfield is ranging from 72 % to 85 %. 69 % is you include Bruno Fernandes (probably not fair considering the risk he takes and that makes him more of an attacker). Pogba and Fred is at a completion rate of 83 and 85 %, and let the ball travel a similar distance as the LFC midfield (including progressive passing). The rest is not even close. Players like McTominay and Pereira have lower completion rate and play shorter and less progressive passes. I know this is a narrow approach, but it is also a bit telling. Furthermore, the story is the same if you dive further in and look at the broader picture (passes in the final third, into the box etc).
You can always carry a player or two like Winjaldum, but in our case we have too many of them. The only players at Man Utd with figures that looks respectable compared to the LFC-players are probably Fred, Pogba and Maguire. Bringing in a better RW will make it easier to pass. Improving our general play too. But we also need to make sure we bring in players who can pass the ball.
That's fair enough.
But we have only seen Bruno and Pogba for one game - and according to that some fans will still want a player who is a good passer and to some others it's clearly not going to be an issue anymore because Pogba can do that.
There has also been links to more CAM/CM players like Grealish, Van de Beek to atleast reduce some lack of creative ability in our squad in central areas so the CDM area is something that's not fussing me too much - especially if we start to utilize the two attacking CM/CAM thing as a tactic much like the city does. We also play with 2 ball playing defenders who have the ability to get the ball forward as long as the shielding is there.
For me - the future of United is looking like a mixture of the 4231/433 in attack and the 352 in defence but we cant be chopping and changing formation every time we meet a different team - we need to build confidence in our own formation.
That's why I'm very interested in CB's who are made to play CDM's like Rice and Lisandro martinez or CDM's made to play like CB's like Zakaria, Kalvin Phillips, Mckennie etc - because I think one day we will go for them to strike the balance between our attacking and defensive formation ie the formation we play against the bottom 16 and the top 4 respectively.
What's rice's numbers?
I've said previously, would be very happy to have him as a CB, he shouldn't be our starting DM though. nice to know he can play there if we did buy him.
I feel as good as some of his long range passing was, I think with a higher intensity game, he's not getting the time or space to do that or put the ball into. He can still do that from a CB position like Laporte.
It is a long tradition that doesn't appear to be fading. Especially when we've not produced a decent DM in years, I only see it continuing. Yeah I feel a bit sorry for Dier, he has never excelled in the DM, he's just been good and never really had the tools to continue to progress to a top class DM. I think if we look at the last two title winning sides DMs, Fabinho and Fernandinho, their ability on and off the ball is incomparable to Dier and Rice.
Of course we need someone who can pass a ball . We signed Schneiderlin and I for one was delighted because I thought he would be great at breaking up play etc. Then after a couple of games I like most others realised while he could break up play when he had time on the ball like you get at the bigger clubs that he was actually bang average and couldn't pass the ball .
Matic Mctominay and Fred are all miles ahead of Rice in their ability on the ball .
I don't know about the rest on here but I'm seriously fed up reading about Rice .
Today, Matic's importance so far has come more from his defensive ability to play as a 'false CB' whilst starting in a CDM position rather than his passing abilities.
I'm not saying Declan Rice is the best out there - I'm just saying let's not rule him out.
I realised since the LVG days that we were going to play the back 3 in our formation and we will need false CB one say so I've kept an eye on players like Rice, Zakaria, Kalvin Phillips Lisandro Martinez etc.
Some are more technical whilst some are more defensive.
I was watching that boy yesterday and saying thank god we never bought him.
As average as they come but for some reason with a high price tag.
Hope that's the end of any thoughts of going after him.
As average as they come but for some reason with a high price tag.
Hope that's the end of any thoughts of going after him.
I agree with everything you say only my opinion is forget about Rice . For me he's one of the most overrated players in the PL and he's probably only got his England breakthrough due to the England / Ireland situation. I will be very suprised if he's still a England regular for much longer
Brilliant post.
Just highlights while the like of McTom/Fred/Pogba/Matic are good solid players - we can do better.
I believe each of these are capable of better, but in terms of potential signings we need to be looking at a higher standard than a Declan Rice
Do you see how Matic is playing deep as a third CB at times?
Matic comes deep to receive the ball and shields the CB's better than anyone we currently we have.
Calling him a 3rd CB isn't correct in my opinion. He's a DM. He plays in Midfield.
He was playing so deep literally playing between Maguire and Lindelof as a starting position before making runs with the ball and pressing up when he had to.
Ofcourse he is a CDM but he was covering the 3rd CB position without us actually having to have a 3rd CB always there. Whenever a fullback decided to go forward we would always have a back 4 because of his ability to drop back in to the back 3 and the other full back to play more defensive on the other side.
Also regarding the passing numbers and accuracy- City and Liverpool have easily the best tactical systems in the league, and some would hesitate to argue that they do compete for tactical systems of the world.
Players like Henderson, Milner didnt suddenly turn magical in their passing- their system became as close to perfect as they could for their group of players with Klopp. Literally Henderson, Keita, Fabinho are nothing exceptional in their passing capacity to cry about in world football but Klopp's tactics are. He has the ability to make good players play above their level by perfecting and practicing a tactical understanding.
Yesterday was the first time I saw at United post SAF, where I saw the perfect team chosen, the perfect tactics, the best team, each players strengths benefits other peoples strengths and covers each others weaknesses ( AWB has an ability to overlap for once due to a RW who cuts in, all forwards play narrow to each other, we play two creative CAM/CM covered by a defensive capable CDm that covers the weaknesses of both the CM but also that of the partnership of the 2 CB's by playing up and down and guarding that area as an anchor man & more ) if we stick with these systems then in my opinion our passing abilities and stats will only improve in accuracy and length the more we play it.
Matic wasn't dropping deep,Maguire and Lindelof were pushing up
When they weren't attacking Maguire and Lindelof were pushing up to create a back 3, but when they had to drop back Matic would drop back to create a back 3 and cover space
Do you also think that Matic didnt play at times in a back 3 yesterday?
Shows the video.
A CDM capable of playing as a CB only when needed allows us to have a back 3 a times to cover dangerous areas or let the fullbacks get more forward. If not then the CDM himself can come and do his normal game when the fullbacks are back or when there is no attacking pressure.
I'm not saying Declan Rice is perfect for this but he will obviously be looked at and compared to others like Zakaria and others who can play CB/CDM , and if he has a good game against teams like spurs then it shouldn't be just discarded.
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We barely defended though. Pogba and Matic were constantly coming to take the ball off our CBs and play it up the pitch.
We just played a high line which brings our CB amd DM closer together, I don't think its much more than that.
Sheff Utd hadn't an ounce of pace up top. We just took liberties
He is above average for me but definitely not worth the suggested figures.
I'd rather we gave Garner an opportunity. He has such quick accurate passing ability.
No, he’s a dime-a-dozen, boil-in-bag player, the proof is in the pudding.
Nice post. I think the team we fielded yesterday had players who were all comfortable on the ball with the exception of AWB. I think it’s okay because he is getting better on the ball and can learn passing patterns and what to do when he is under pressure.
The problem is when we field multiple players that aren’t very comfortable on the ball. James, AWB and mctominay aren’t elite technicians on the ball so when under pressure they tend to make inaccurate passes or fail to dribble out of trouble. It was a main issue against Tottenham because they were all in close proximity to each other which led to failed passes and break down of plays.
Mctominay has a big future here so he will need to improve his passing. One thing he can really learn from matic is controlling the tempo. He could still work in place of matic as long as he isn’t paired with James as that handicaps our creativeness.
James is not a terrible passer but he just can’t dribble in tight spaces. Relies too much on his speed. Dribbling is something you either have or you don’t. he shouldn’t be a starter and that’s okay. There are multiple games in the season were he can be useful.
Ah now you’re just milking it.Back on topic, ge won’t leave WH, he’s in-grained there
He has the sort of mentality Ole is looking for
That's a good point, Liverpool's midfield aren't spraying 40-50 yards passes to players feet, they don't need to. They have an efficient front 3 who they get the ball to without fuss. None of those mentioned are top class passers, but they keep it tight and move it at the right time, as you say good passers, very functional. Re stats, I'm too keen on them in this regard, Liverpool have so much possession in games that those stats are always going to be high. We already have 2 top quality passers in mid, people are going on like we need a 3rd world class passer for defensive mid, we don't, we need a player who will protect the defence and keep it simple. Our lack of defensive mid cover was exposed in the Spurs game, a good quality defensive mid would have been coming round the back of the defence and putting in a tackle, or cutting that of at source.Whoever we get, we need to be realistic, we've 2 mids who do their best work in attacking areas. We have a central defence that is short on pace, we've a keeper whose reluctant to come of his line. Defensive cover will be their job, as Liverpool do, win the ball and give it to the teammates who can do the damage. In an ideal world a top quality defensive mid with top class passing would be ideal, but those are few and far between.
More people tilting to Rice for DM. He used to be called overrated
Bang average. Hope we stay well clear, never understood the hype.
I'd swap him for Pereira, Lingard and a few balls but that's about it.
If we want to get back to contending for major trophies we need special players not journeymen.
If we want to get back to contending for major trophies we need special players not journeymen.
Declan Rice is a more polished version of McTominay, but the thing they both don't have is effective passing. Still too many people don't realize this. The composure on the ball, the reading of the game, the breaking between the lines, the ability to carry the ball into space and pass forward is something that Matic has on Rice and McTominay. Just because he's not as fast, pacey, or aggressive in the tackle as he once was doesn't mean he's worse than these players.
You need players who can think on the ball and execute properly on the ball. Rice hasn't shown this at all, neither has McTominay.
You need players who can think on the ball and execute properly on the ball. Rice hasn't shown this at all, neither has McTominay.
Exactly this. Matic actually thinks with the ball and dictates tempo from deep. Also composed enough to move forward with the ball which buys pogba and Bruno enough time to get into advanced positions. I don’t think Rice is what we need. We should break the bank for a busquets/carrick tupe of player.
He looked great against Spurs, and he was basically a one man midfield playing with Noble in a Moyes team!
I think he could develop into a top player and we should definitely inquire if they go down
I think he could develop into a top player and we should definitely inquire if they go down
Matic is as close as you can get to Carrick, although he's not as good in positioning nor intercepting. When Carrick played, you'd see the opponent was like passing the ball to him.
Declan Rice is still young, so he still has plenty of time to improve. I think we signed Carrick when he was 24/25 y.o.?
Declan Rice is still young, so he still has plenty of time to improve. I think we signed Carrick when he was 24/25 y.o.?
We don't need to buy another player who 'could' develop into a top player with an English premium price, unless West Ham (hopefully) go down which should reduce his price, but even then, wouldn't touch him with a 1000 foot pole. We have McTominay and Garner already to develop and groom into the squad.
Look at the teams ahead and around United. City - Rodri/Fernandinho, Liverpool - Fabinho, Chelsea - Jorginho, Leicester - Ndidi.
Those are their deepest central midfielders who skew towards the defensive side so they qualify as a defensive or holding or regista. Everyone of them, bar Ndidi, can pass and has composure and is a bit of a metronome with the ball. Ndidi plays in a team that loves to counter and use Vardy's pace in behind or Maddison's ingenuity. That's the way they've played since winning the league, albeit a little more expansive under Rodgers, but you don't see those types of holding midfield players in other top European teams like the top 2 in Spain (Barca - Busquets, RM - Casemiro) or in Germany with Bayern - Kimmich, Thiago, Alaba and Dortmund - Witzel.
Roy Keane, Paul Scholes, Michael Carrick, Matic. Those are pretty much the generational central midfielders the past 25 or 30 years that helped anchor a United midfield. You can put in Nicky Butt as well, maybe a Giggsy towards his later time, but I'd put Butt before him. But those players all could pass the fecking ball and knew what to do with it with technical abilities far and away better than Rice. Yes he's young, but he's not transitioning lower down the pitch from a more attacking role/position like Keane, Scholes, Carrick, and Giggs did. Would rather just invest the time and commitment to McTominay and Garner.
I understand if you don't rate the other 3 (albeit Matic having 2 EPL titles to his name) but surely Pogba is an intruder on that list.
Rodri doesn’t work in that role at City, and it has cost them the title this season. Ndidi isn’t any more of a footballer than Rice and Fabinho has the tenacity and drive of Rice which I find so appealing.
I think you are underrating him as a player here. McTominey is a great option to have, but Garner can’t be considered in the debate. We saw what has happened to Gomes.
Calm down, it was his first season in the EPL. He's class.
Aguero hasn't been fit most of the year....and that's exactly why City havent been up to par this year...defense is not good enough and thats the backline including Mendy who is so poor. Laporte has missed time due to injury and he's their best CB. Jesus isn't good enough and obviously isn't Aguero.
Rodri is a good player. Gomes doesn't even play the same position as McTominay nor Garner nor Rice.
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