That would be suicidal.
Declan Rice
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It certainly is not irrelevant, just look at how many minutes they played last season. We lost 2 midfielders (and I'm glad they're gone) but we have not replaced them. Unless we really consider the kids as first team players. Because if we don't strengthen in midfield, there surely will be a lot of opportunities for them to play.
Matic was literally past-it by 2019, Pogba was detrimental when played CM (funny how he was at his best during his 6 years at United when Ole put him on the left
), and I don't remember Lingard and Mata playing much. Cavani was also basically non-existent in his 2nd season.I think the trouble with CM is we are clearly all in for De Jong, in terms of RB we are trying to sell Wan Bissaka to buy one. RW is all about Antony but need to sell Ronaldo to partly fund it.
Matic and Pogba combined played 2700 minutes, who will take those minutes this season? They were definitely not good, but at least provided us some options, now we don't have any. This is THE issue with our midfield, we will be playing CBs in midfield by October.Matic was literally past-it by 2019, Pogba was detrimental when played CM (funny how he was at his best during his 6 years at United when Ole put him on the left
At Ajax, FdJ was the CB/CDM-hybrid. I dont think EtH would want a type like Rice next to FdJ. Rather he would want someone who is comfortable pushing higher up the pitch, in between the opposition CB and MC and (almost next to Bruno when in possession).
When at Ajax he played with two 6’s, but with different tasks. FdJ was the «connector» (a word EtH recently used to describe Freds job), while Schone often pushed higher.
The perfect player next to FdJ would probably be someone like Kovacic. Or maybe Modric is in his prime.
As per Bebestation’s post, ETH regards FDJ as roaming and adventurous, away too often to be a 6.
First of all, I think Garner is ready to play a part for us and I'd also say that he can partner all of McTominay, Fred and de Jong. So hopefully he can play a part this season.
Secondly, I'd agree with you if we were talking about a title challenge, but I guess we're debating whether we can get 75 or more points, which is more than possible with this squad for a world class manager.
Not to be a 6, but to be alone as a 6. Hence, playing with two 6. But the 6 at Ajax was not a double pivot like at Man Utd.
FdJ was what Bebestation refer to as a «hybrid» CB while Schone, also capable of covering alot of space in defence, often moved higher up the pitch. I’m quite confident, in EtHs mind Rice would be an option instead of FdJ. Not a good partner next to him.
Bellingham would probably be the perfect partner for FdJ.
I see. I admire your optimism (getting de Jong and playing Garner), but don't share it unfortunately. I am terrified at how thin our squad is in midfield area.
No I don’t agree but an interesting point of view.
If our squad looks like the same on 1 Sept, then you have reasons to be upset and worried. Wouldn't worry about it in late July, though.
Fair enough.
I think the relevant thing is how Schone played. He is a very different player to Rice, and his function at Ajax was not as a hybrid CM/CB at all. In fact, he was more of a hybrid 6 and 8. Maybe even 10.
Yeah, I can see where you are coming from but my interpretation of ETH’s comments about FDJ are that he is better with a more defensively disciplined player in CM so that he can roam and impact the game more broadly than from the 6 position. I don’t read much into what happened at Ajax.
If he comes here we’ll see how he is used but I still think Rice is the player who would compliment him best. That’s without getting into the detail of what Rice can give us in terms of character and physicality; his type is what would create the right blend. I suspect Martinez will get some games in midfield in that role.
I can see what your saying but for me it was how Schone played that made De Jong play as deep as the CB.
Ten Hag clearly wants De Jong to roam - a roaming playmaker is going to come down as much as a third CB but also go forward as a CAM.
Schone was never a ball winning type of anchor man so this made De Jong play as the deepest one of the 2 number 6’s.
All Rice would do is make De Jong be able to move forward more on the pitch as he roams around and as Ten Hag said - get chances created for the forward line.
I don’t personally see what Bellingham add’s to the weaknesses or strengths of Frenkie De Jong - if Frenkie goes roaming on the pitch then leaving Bellingham as the last defensive midfielder before the opposition gets to our defense is a bit wrong.
Anyway, De Jong over Rice any day of the week because he is the attacking orchaestra player that sets the tempo for our attack. However at the same time Rice would be the defensive orchestra player that sets the defensive positioning for a team to be tight compact and have the freedom to roam or attack.
I just see them as perfect partners.
If we get Frenkie this summer - I believe we will see Martinez as his partner as the season progresses. If that does happen then I can see Rice replacing him.
If the whole need for a defensive minded 6 is wrong - then De Jong’s partner will most likely be a player like Fred than be a player like Bellingham in my eyes and De Jong will be the deepest CDM with Fred pressing further up the pitch.
Let’s see.
I’m not against Rice. Recently he has developed into more of a box-to-box midfielder, and that would suit FdJ well.
What I do not buy is that Rice, next to FdJ, would play as a CB/CM hybrid. Rather we would push Rice higher up the pitch.
That would be a waste of both their talents. Bebestation’s post 12256 makes perfect sense to me.
Well, that is how EtH played FdJ/Schone at Ajax. And I’m not sure I agree it was a waste of FdJs talent.
That would ve quite different from how he used FdJ at Ajax, would it not? FdJ was always the «connector», and I think he will be at Man Utd too.
Looking at Schone/FdJs stats at Fbref in the 18/19 campaign is illustrating.
- Schone had more touches than Frenkie in the attacking third, while Frenkie had a lot more touches in the defensive 3rd and the middle 3rd area of the pitch. Frenkie almot made twice as many touches as Schone in the defensive penalty area.
- FdJ also made more tackles in the defensive 3rd of the pitch,
- Schone actually had a higher xg and xga than FdJ (and had 1 goal and 2 assists that campaign, while FdJ had zero)
Obviously, while FdJ covers alot of ground, and was alot better than Schone, I do think that EtH ideally would want someone who offers more in the attacking third next to FdJ. Not someone who covers him in the defensive third.
I think Frenkie’s gift if his contribution in build up and transition from defence to attack. He makes it quick and fluid. He is not a player KdB or Xavi, always finding a solution in the final third.
Personally, I think someone like Garner, could be a really good match too.
Ten Hag has stated that he wants 2 6’s and a CAM. Now CAM and De Jong heavily influences our attacking ability even if where they take their touches deep. We can’t go with another attacking player to have all 3 attacking?
For me Ten Hag used Schone as the player he had than a player he built his tactics around.
I think over the course of the season we are going to be a team that has amazing attacking ability but gets caught out on the opposition attack or counters.
We are primarily a possession team that will get counter attacked. Rice’s main ability is to stop the passing lanes of opposition attacks.
Just because De Jong receives the ball deep doesn’t mean Rice is useless - he basically swaps positions with de Jong as soon as he starts roaming.
Rice starts further up the pitch as De Jong gets the ball deep - then as De Jong starts roaming, Rice swaps positions to be the deeper player that guards the CB’s getting attacked on any sort of counter.
This is the false back 3 with Rice or Martinez being the false CB, guarding 2 ball playing CB’s and letting both fullbacks go on the attack to along side De Jong.
I think people’s main issue with Rice is they see him as someone that may stop the attack being fluid or as quick. But as the season progresses I think we are going to realize that we can’t have 11 players on the pitch focusing on possesion and attacks - especially to the speed that Ten Hag plays his football in comparison to a Guardiola.
That’s where I see Rice coming in, the last piece of the puzzle, the one defensive reader to let the rest of the team focus on attacking at a freedom.
De Jong comes deep, Rice stays in midfield, De Jong goes forward and Rice comes deeper to provide that protection.
To start our attack, our most offensive midfielder is free to meeting our CB’s, then we continue the attack with ball up the pitch with our most defensive midfielder now taking the spot of meeting/covering the CB’s.
If you have watched Rice at West Ham it’s great to see how Rice let’s Soucek roam up the pitch. However since it’s Moyes, Soucek is more like Fellaini in an Aerial way. We obviously don’t need that Aerial way and De Jong roams technically up and down the pitch like Soucek does aerially due to Rice’s protection.
I think EtH found a player that could do the job that was needed for FdJ, his most talented player, to do what he does best. Schone addapted to FdJ.
I think Kovacic would be a natural at that job. While I do think Rice would be the best option if we failed to get FdJ.
I’m also really excited about the idea of Garner next to FdJ.
But Rice and FDJ are nothing alike in how they play or contribute to the phases of play.
Garner is really not good enough, and hes not someone who could dictate play at this level.
They are two different type of players, but not that different either. In some ways I would argue that Frenkie de Jong is the dutch Rice. Both of them are really well suited to being, as Bebestation keeps arguing, a CB/DMC-hybrid. Rice is perhaps a bit more "laid-back" (i.e. how he defends space). I would argue that Frenkie de Jong is more suited to a proactive possession-type of football.
I do think Rice would have been more suited for our two former coaches/managers than FdJ (I even made a thread about him in 2018).
I don’t think ETH would expect Rice to be able to do what FDJ does. They have both been deployed in the same part of the pitch but you could not slot them in and out of the same line up. If you play Rice you need a more creative player with him; if you play FDJ you need a more physical, tactical defender with a good engine alongside.
In other words, they have complimentary attributes. They are not alternatives to each other unless you want a different approach and a different line-up altogether.
If that is the case, why did EtH play Schone next to FdJ? In the 18/19 campaign FdJ made 15,1 recoveries per 90 min. Rice has never made more than 12,5 per 90 min.
And what do you mean by creative? Normally, when people talk about players being creative they talk about players like de Bruyne and Eriksen. Players who make the final pass into the box. That is mot Frenkie de Jong.
Frenkie de Jong is a player that is great at moving the ball into the final third. For someone like Eriksen or KdB.
I really think Rice and FdJ is two players that suit two different styles. They could play together, but it would be sub-optimal. If you played Rice instead of Frenkie de Jong you would lose something in build up and transition.
Yes I said they can only be considered alternatives if you want a different approach or style if you prefer. We don’t need to consider Schone unless we’re going to buy him as well. We need to find the best pairing and play both to their strengths.
The thing about Rice is he has got the intelligence to play around FDJ, to compliment him, to keep the shape and balance of the team, to adapt his role to the game situation. Those two together would be ideal.
We dont need to consider Schone, but we need to consider the task of Schone. Because Schone was used to get the best out of Frenkie de Jong.
Time will (hopefully) tell. But I think we will see that EtH prefer a player that offer something quite different than what Rice would (if Rice where allowed to play to his strenght) next to FdJ.
Yeah, we’ll see of course. FDJ is a very exciting prospect. I do think the way they lined up in Ajax is a bit of a red herring; ETH was setting up the best he could with players he had. What he preferred then is likely different to what he prefers now in current context and may also be different to what he actually had at Ajax.
Surprised he's not been linked more actively with clubs this summer... though I guess west hams price tag might have put a lot of people off.
Think his contract expires in 2025 so perhaps after the world Cup or next summer will be weat hams last chance to get a good return on him.
Think his contract expires in 2025 so perhaps after the world Cup or next summer will be weat hams last chance to get a good return on him.
If we don’t get frenkie, would it be worth paying a extra 20mil and going for this guy?
If the money is there we should get him but it would result in a pretty different style to what we’d get with FDJ, to begin with anyway. And depending who else gets picked in there. With Eriksen here and Mejbri coming through I’d probably take Rice ahead of FDJ because of the physicality, character and tactical intelligence he brings.
@andersj
For me I look at his 18/19 squad and the only player that could play CB/CDM was Daley blind who was their defender that season.
The following season they bought Martinez and played him at CDM but had sold De Jong.
What’s going to be interesting is if we do sign De Jong then that Martinez and De Jong is going to play together for a full season first time.
Ten Hag has also used Alvarez in such a position but I wouldn’t call either Alvarez or Martinez a “wanderer” like Ten Hag description of De Jong.
I just think we have to see if Ten Hag sees a Cb/CDM hybrid player brings the best out of De Jong or De Jong himself ishimself such a player.
I do think though Kovacic, De Jong and Bruno is an overly attacking midfield.
Let’s just see how Martinez is used this season.
For me I look at his 18/19 squad and the only player that could play CB/CDM was Daley blind who was their defender that season.
The following season they bought Martinez and played him at CDM but had sold De Jong.
What’s going to be interesting is if we do sign De Jong then that Martinez and De Jong is going to play together for a full season first time.
Ten Hag has also used Alvarez in such a position but I wouldn’t call either Alvarez or Martinez a “wanderer” like Ten Hag description of De Jong.
I just think we have to see if Ten Hag sees a Cb/CDM hybrid player brings the best out of De Jong or De Jong himself ishimself such a player.
I do think though Kovacic, De Jong and Bruno is an overly attacking midfield.
Let’s just see how Martinez is used this season.
It seems ETH like players with versatilita, can play multiple position. He no seems to be interest in pure DM, so non think Rice is an option. If option, probably buy by board, not great for Utd.
Other than Chelsea (eventually) I don't see where this guy will end up after the price West Ham have put on him. Far too pricey, even though he's clearly a very good player
What a well written and good post! I completely agree, you are spot on in your tactical description!
Garner, FDJ and VDB should be expected to be used in the midfield. VDB was here only half of last season and was barely used then. He's had close to as many minutes in this preseason as he had for Man Utd last season. Eriksen might also be used in midfield a few times, as well as AM and on the wing.
We’re not sure if we get FDJ and Garner and VDB are not in the same class as Matic and Pogba. The idea of our being competitive with those two in the team is pretty fanciful.
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