You’re right, we need to sell Bruno as wellDeclan Rice
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You’re right, we need to sell Bruno as wellHe could be playing in a 3 man midfield as the most advanced midfielder and will still drop deep to dictate play, because he's that profile of player from what he's shown playing at Monaco and now at United.
So what's important is the profile/attributes of said player and not specifically the role in midfield IMO. The potentional is there, we just need to see if he has it in himself to make the step up at first team level.
No one said that, strawman much?
We should have Hannibal or Galbraith able to play alongside Rice to add some creativity from the youth system. Bruno can do it further up the pitch. Sancho as a wider player.
The thing with Rice for me is that he is the type of midfielder that we miss that can allow us to try VDB right now in a midfield 3 alongside players like Pogba, Fred or Mctominay maybe even Bruno.
Just provides an element of stability in front of the defence and to the midfielders infront of him.
Chelsea aren’t mugs. They can blow over 100m on a player but only on someone they consider an absolute necessity e.g Lukaku. Their midfield is hardly screaming out for Rice to be competitive.
He can find himself in a Kane situation, priced out of a move. Good thing is he has time on his side, unlike the latter.
My issue with stats is they don't have a way to capture how a player dictates play. For example Jogrinho creates less chances than a Rice. But he runs the games for teams he plays for. Most of the passing and team tempo is determined by him. Even pass completion doesn't say much. You can have way high pass completion whilst passing it 10 to 15 yards ala Makelele. Its not the same as running the game through passing.
I understand most people believe Rice will improve at these things. I personally don't think United should be looking to sign someone who isn't already good at what I'm talking about. Because to me that role knits the team together. It's arguably the most important by far.
Rice is a good player. So is his passing. Yet my misgiving about him were confirmed at the Euros. He and Phillips struggled to live with the ability to dictate with passing that Italy had with Verratti and Jorginho. Yet to me, Phillips had a far better game in that final than Rice.
To me that is why he wouldn't be a right fit for United. If we had him as the anchor man, we'd also need to sign a player who can run games sit next to him. Yet right now all our squad lacks is a 6 who can run games. Because we have a collection of midfielders excellent at attacking and running things in the final third. Not running things from deep. So to me it makes little sense hiring a player who is a good 6, able yo drive from deep yet doesn't have running games from deep as a strength.
This is the reason I don't agree with the parallels between him and Keane. To me, he does everything Keane could do, save for running games. To me he is more Gilberto than Keane. If we had like a Scholes type on our books. I'd happily want him signed. But we have the likes of Fred, mctominay, Pogba and Bruno. They need more of a Carrick than a Gilberto.
Southgate's management of England shouldn't be what decides a players ability IMO. We purposefully gave the ball completely to Italy once Shaw scored with Italy having 66% possesion including extra time and completely controlling that game.
It's why I decided to watch Rice for West Ham to see if he was as shit as he looked for the national team and got impressed but what I saw compared to the average looking performances he was putting for England.
It's why I decided to watch Rice for West Ham to see if he was as shit as he looked for the national team and got impressed but what I saw compared to the average looking performances he was putting for England.
It is a good point, and I agree. Stats dont give you the entire picture. But I think it is quite interesting to note that in the PL this season;
- Rice makes basically as many passes per 90 min as Jorginho playing for West Ham,
- Rice a higher completion rate than Jorginho,
- Rice moves the ball further with each pass, on average, than Jorginho,
- Rice moves the ball further up the pitch with each pass than Jorginho,
- Rice makes more passes into the final third than Jorginho per 90 min,
- Rice creates more chances than Jorginho per 90 min,
We dont get all information in stats. But this information is, none the less, quite relevant and interesting. It should be easier to have a higher completion rate at Chelsea than at West Ham. It should be easier to find players in the final third. You should, by default, make more passes and create more chances playing for Chelsea. But he dont.
And as you say, Jorginho is one of the best midfielders in the world. In his prime at 29 years old playing at Chelsea for Thomas Tuchel. Rice is 22, playing for West Ham, under David Moyes.
I agree with you that he was poor for England. But as I have said before, I have seen great players be poor for England so many times before.
harsh but true. what about Liverpool RB? Sterling?
Good post. I think it’s a credit to Rices determination to improve that he’s stepped it up even more this season just like he says he would. Credit to moyes for allowing him to expand his game further as he’s certainly capable off it.
It’s frustrating that he’s still judged on his England performances as he’s only doing exactly what Southgate has told him too
Kane is one too during Pochettino's tenure. Vardy won the title with Leicester as their main striker aswell.
Walker and Stones may be overrated to people - but they are ultimately being used consistently as starters by one of the best managers in the world. Phil Foden is young and has arguably replaced David Silva, Potentially winning the title this year with Grealish in his first year at City looking as favourites - a player who has himself disposed Sterling as a main player for Rodger's Liverpool and then bought by City, winning titles, scoring goal after goal at City being a main player for their title wins and even CL final reaches. Absolutely trounce a player like Sane's career at City - a player many would salivate as a foreign young gem prior to his time at City.
Players like TAA are viewed as the best in their position by some. What about Reece James for Chelsea, another English RB seemingly overtaking the best in the World this year. Chelsea are looking like the other favourites in the PL this year - Hudson Odoi is looking good again whilst players like Mount have always outperformed Werner who seem at times completely lost. Chilwell has resurrected under a proper manager like Tuchel scoring 3 goals in 3 matches or something. This resurrection was seen by Shaw last year - with him regarded by some as Shawberto Carlos, doing well in the PL, Europa league and the Euro's - scoring in the bloody final. Klopp played 5 British players in between 2 CL finals and its still a British played that scored the wonder goal for Real Madrid in Bale. Trippier was a runner up in that other match and then moved to athletic Madrid to help win them the title. Sancho has won 2 cups as a Dortmund player & became worth alot. Now people want Bellingham for his performances too as they help dominate teams in Germany.
Just as an example- People will say English/British players are crap & then mention some random ass player doing ok in Ligue 1 like Camavinga who had a crap season last year, Absolutely nothing. Now it's Tchouameni- who I think is good but gets hyped for Pogba's performances for France more than anything really he did. Everything gets quiet when Monaco is drawing 0-0 to Reims, Monaco drawing 0-0 to PSV at home, Monaco losing 2-0 Brest; all when Tchouameni is playing number 8 CM. Couple years ago it was Ndombele who cant even get in to the Tottenham Hotspurs squad. Pogba himself has been a 90 million player who has been a vast disssapointment to many United fans and to make it worse - he is also planning to leave us on a free. 90 mil down the drain. Griezmann for Barcelona? Most people wanted him here desperately but was largely a flop. So is Ousammane Dembele. Massive prices, just as much failure.
Just judging players by their nation is ultimately wrong. Its not good when it's done about French players and its not good done when it's done about English players either.
Or Rice is finding it easy to find passes because it's West Ham and teams doesn't defend as deep as against Chelsea.
Alexander Arnold is from their academy. Mainly was talking about the expensive English players that were hyped before they moved to a big club.
I quoted Sterling in my post saying even if they show world class ability they do it for 2 or 3 seasons at the most. Now City want Sterling sold.
You are taking about Kane, Vardy, Hudson Odoi. These are home grown players, they had no pressure joining the first team not like they bought them for 80 million.
If you read my post I said big English transfer that have flopped in the past ten years or so.
There is a big thing here about buying players from Dortmund because they mostly flop when bought but yet you guys want more English players who flop even more considering they are use to the league.
Why dont you see more of the same with other midfielders at similar teams like West Ham?
A player like Ndidi is waaaay below these players. And West Ham-possession numbers this season is much closer to Chelsea than Leicester. Same with Bissouma btw.
And why do you think international players do not flop?
Greizmann, Dembele, Umtiti, Lenglet all from one country to one club.
I said United fans are iffy about buying players from Dortmund because of our experiences with them not ones did I say International players don’t flop.
The point I was trying to make
Oh right, I agree about that.
Dortmund players are not the best and has hardly done well outside the Bundesliga. Some even not as good as before like Gotze.
Very true.
think he meant big signings mostly which Rice would be
Rice has a serious claim for best midfielder in the league this season. WhoScored actually has him as the 8th highest average rated player in the PL this season. Only midfielders rated higher are Gallagher (who's been G/Aing at a crazy rate), and Kovacic. I've never been too hot on him, but his progression as a player is playing out very much in real time.
That being said... I think were we to sign Rice, we would still need another midfielder beside him. That's a lot of outlay in midfield...
That being said... I think were we to sign Rice, we would still need another midfielder beside him. That's a lot of outlay in midfield...
In regards to Chelsea, I think it comes down purely to Kante's injuries. He's been picking up quite a few injuries the last couple of seasons, so they may want to go all out on the player that they ultimately see replacing him. Rice is a very different type of player, but they don't necessarily have to replace him like-for-like (and trying to do so will obviously end up with a significant downgrade since Kante is the best at what he does).
That's the only way I see them as willing to pay what it will take to get Rice in the next season or two.
My point is. Its harder to run things for a Chelsea than a West Ham. A Jorginho's job at chelsea is to run things. Not create chances. If Declan Rice were to move to a club like ours He'd be expected to run things.
Those statistics tell me Rice is an excellent defensive midfielder. Not a top end deep lying midfield controller. United in my view need more than just a top end DM
Thing is a Jorginho has been doing this 4 years at least. It's always been feature of his game. Its it just maturity. A Carrick for example always had it. What he improved with age was his defensive awareness.
I don't believe a United at this stage can afford to wait for a Rice to come into his own as a deep lying controller. Especially given the current make up of the team. Signing him would mean us having to sign another midfield controller in addition. Especially if we do lose POGBA
true story
Do you think Matic runs things? Or Kante runs things?
What about Casemiro behind Kroos and Modric?
Just want to know your opinion.
Kante pre Sarri wasn't really able to help control things from deeper
Drinkwater run things alongside Kante
Matic run things for years from deep at Chelsea, definitely did alongside Kante.
Jorginho runs things alongside Kante. Although the current version of Kante contributes
Declan Rice is like a big size version of that Kante. I don't believe we currently have anyone in our main senior squad who would do the game running job alongside him. Only Pogba if he stayed could at least compensate for it with his insane creative passing range.
Name the Modric and Kroos in our squad that Rice could play alongside comfortably.
Remember Kroos and Modric are not Bruno and Pogba. They are possession controllers who create. Not pro active creators who don't control possession. In my view the only ways a Rice, Pogba, Bruno thing would have a chance to work for us is if we got a coach who was a style system coach. So that the system would mask the fact the team doesn't have any controller from deep
We will regardless of who we sign, I think. If we sign a Bellingham in a few years, people will be screaming for a new Keane/Carrick. If we sign Rice, people will be calling for a new Scholes.
In my opinion, he is a lot more similar to Fabinho than Kante.
In my view a Bellingham can run things from deeper. I believe if Southgate is sharp. Next world cup Bellingham will be playing deeper with either Rice or Phillips at the world cup in his favoured double pivot.
Fair Enough.I just don't think he can run a game like I saw Fabinho do at monaco repeatedly, hence my liking him to Kante at Leiciester. Or even Casemiro really. I like his ball carrying ability and really like what he can do defensively. Not so much his passing in terms of what United currently needs to complete the first team
I mean I agree with this partially - but again why is it Rice's fault that Pogba didn't turn in to the 90 mil playmaker we wanted him to be or plays for France?
Rice isn't a deep lying playmaker and anyone who watches him isn't ever pretending that he is coming here to be one is it?
People want Rice to come here and protect the CB'S. That's what his game is.
Why can't the tempo setter play next to Rice and Rice gives him and the CB'S all the freedom and protection they have to play the game they want to set a tempo for the team?
The thing that's great about Rice is not his ability to set the tempo of the team - it's his ability to set the shape of the team and how it should line at different points in the match and depending on which team is safe and which team isn't through his situational awareness, be it a 352, a 4231, a 541 or a 212212 shape - it's changing primarily with how Rice is analysing that situation for West Ham and where he himself is positioning himself as a faux CB/CDM hybrid player.
He is changing the shape of West Ham through his positional awareness to get the most freedom to his attackers and protection for his defenders.
Even though he himself doesn't set the tempo of his team through his passing (which is statistically decent anyway) - why can't a player who sets the tempo play next to Rice and reap the benefits of it?
I remember Chelsea playing Fabregas and he had protection. Kroos and modric had protection. Pirlo had protection. Scholes didn't need a deep lying playmaker sitting next to him- he needed someone who could provide some stability. Fernandinho isn't exactly xabi alonso even though his whole team is possesion based, the creativity came from the players more in front of him.
I'm not saying you haven't done it - but watch a Rice game for West Ham and focus on how he plays. It's different to how he plays for England, he literally controls a certain aspect of space and shape for West Ham as there 22 year old captain.
100 percent agree.
Looks like our fans always assume the way to fix the problems is by buying a new player. Happened with Maguire , Wan Bissaka and I am afraid it will repeat with Rice. In first season of Maguire, AWB everyone hailed what a good signings they are and once our performances are dropped we are looking for new players.
I don't think Rice is a bad player and he will be good addition to the squad, but saying buying him will solve all the MF and Defensive problems is very premature. There is no guarantee that a midfield of Rice, Pogba, Bruno will work especially considering Rice plays in a 2-man defensive midfields at WHU and England national team.
I don't think Rice is a bad player and he will be good addition to the squad, but saying buying him will solve all the MF and Defensive problems is very premature. There is no guarantee that a midfield of Rice, Pogba, Bruno will work especially considering Rice plays in a 2-man defensive midfields at WHU and England national team.
Who say it is? The simple truth is he is not what this United squad currently needs in the one position they lack. Say you lose a Pogba and spend 80m on Rice. You'd have to wait another season to find a and afford a controller to play alongside him
There are a number of his fans who claim he will grow into that
In my view we need more than just someone protecting our back 4 in that position. Moreover for the kind of money he will cost
Which tempo setter? United currently don't have any. The closest viable one we have to one is Pogba due to his insane passing range. The other is old man Matic. We lose Pogba and you add Rice for 80m. What then? I don't think Garner nor Mejbri would be ready to step up alongside him just yet. Perhaps DVB if he stayed could.
But if he can't we'd be very short in a critical area.
Both the player and the club would not benefit and you know how impatient fans and the media get with delayed gratification moves at club's like United....
I think you misunderstand me. Its obvious Rice would be excellent alongside a midfield controller for he is a top level defensive anchor man. The point is United don't currently have any! Neither do we have the type of attacking fullbacks on both flanks to compensate for the lack of one. That is the reason why people like me don't see Rice at 80m as a viable transfer.
We'd have to probably invest in either fullbacks or another 60-80m playmaker to make his transfer work. Or if our heart is set on getting him we must break the bank to keep Pogba. Much to the chagrin of many of our fans ironically
United currently need a Matic/Carrick type to replace Matic. Not a Casemiro/Kante type like Rice is.
Rice IMHO would make sense if you were bagging a bellingham at the same time
And again I kind of agree with this except some points:
- If you think Rice & Bellingham would be a good partnership; why is it that we should stall and not buy Rice until we buy Bellingham first? Bellingham is a player that won't likely be available for some time since Dortmund are selling players like Haaland sooner.
- I don't view Matic anything as a deep lying playmaker just because he can pass - he is a player who is an anchorman type player that gives an element of stability in deeper areas being a CDM. The proof in my eyes to this is with Pogba. Pogba who is the main deep passer in our team, is hardly ever lined up with Fred or Mctominay. This is because Fred and Mctominay cannot provide the defensive stability by themselves that Matic can. If Matic's role of our team was a deep lying playmaker that sets a tempo for our team from deep - he wouldn't be lined up next to Pogba as his main midfield partner. Matic would also be able to play more games with Fred or Mctominay and be a deeper tempo setter for our team, which he hasn't done or isn't that good at - he is primarily a defensive stability setter with some decent passing ability.
- Even if you did view Matic as some sort of good passer and the 2nd best tempo setter we have - who is the player we have that can actually play as a CDM for us and provide the ruthless stability that's needed a level higher up the pitch before the opposition attackers reach our CB'S? Fred can't do it. Mctominay can't do it. Pogba can't do it. VDB can't do it. Matic is old and in your eyes more of a tempo setter.
- We lack that stability an Anchorman type CDM can give because at best; we only really have one in Matic. Matic needs replacing.
- I totally agree though that we need a deep lying playmaker, if Pogba is leaving; even though we have Hannibal, Garner, Galbraith, VDB - who might be too young or not good enough. However, I don't see why we don't need a CDM that can again, give us stability or win the ball back of the opposition in dangerous areas.
- However, the difference in our opinion is that Rice is not deemed good enough replacement for Pogba or in particular Matic due to the way you view Matic. You view Matic as a player who plays for United and is able to set a tempo for the team. I disagree with that, I view Matic as a stability based/Anchorman/ball winning type midfielder and I believe Rice is a very good replacement for that in our team. Replacing Pogba, our main deep lying playmaker needs a totally different player.
not quite what I meant. I was simply implying if we were buying Bellingham at the same time, Rice would be an excellent buy. But if we are indeed losing a pogba. Then We spend 80m on Rice, the have nada left to invest in a top end controller, we'd be doing him no favours. We wouldn't have the ideal partner for him any longer and he'd be expected to offer what he can't. Ala a fish being judged on climbing trees. Like how Lindeloff is labelled 'poor' just because he and Maguire are fundamentally incompatible as a center defence pair.
Matic with age has simply become less effective. But he has always been a similar player to Carrick. Offering excellent defensive stability whilst being able to run things from deep. His partnership with Pogba is by far our best because he offers both the defensive stability and the passing.
It's the same reason why it works with a Mctominay. With Fred when he does his dropping into center defence act. Fred can't run things at all a so the midfield dies. Yet he doesn't carry the ball into the attack like a Mctominay can. He is also better suited to pass and move but deeper than both DVB and Mctominay so the matic combo with him becomes problematic.
My point is this squad needs a player who is both a defensive anchor and a tempo setter like Carrick, Keane or Matic in their prime.
It doesn't just need a defensive shield.
Why I don't deem Rice good enough to replace Matic is because of how our squad is shaped. Right now we are packed with box to box 8s. One (Pogba) has the insane passing range so acts our only deeper 2nd playmaker in the squad since Maric tends to just operate as a 3rd center half. DVB is more about pass and move, Mctominay is a ball carrier whilst Fred is a harrier.
When buying a Rice to replace Matic one has to take into account who else apart from Pogba will be his midfield partners.
Because we can't play without a deep lying controller and succeed because we don't have the fullbacks to compensate. So merely buying a high end defensive shield doesn't really permanently solve our midfield issues. It simply leaves us needing one more buy in spite of spending close to 80m. Which to many makes no sense.
That is why many were eager for a player like Camavinga. A player capable of running a game from deep whilst offering the defensive shield of a Rice. Because such a player would seamlessly fit with all our midfielders in the squad. Whilst giving us the essential deeper 2nd playmaker in the first xi but most importantly end us needing to heavily invest further in our midfield, even if we lost a Pogba
See this is what I disagree with. Camavinga is better on the ball than Rice and can defensively add an element to our team like Fred's or Mctominay's - but Camavinga's ability to shield the team defensively well is no where near the level of Rice's.
Camavinga is seen playing on the other end of the pitch trying to take on the LB and make some nice passes. It's how he plays. It was the same with that guy from Brighton who got put in to Jail or something - you see him all over the place. Rice is much deeper and always analysing the tactical situation to decide the shape and positioning him and his team mates should take.
Anyway, talking about him isn't going change your mind on him. Watch some West Ham games and follow him and how he is plays such a hard role at 22 years old.
Im not confused about his role. It just isn't enough for United. People often confuse a Camavinga having to be every where for a a rennes with no tactical intelligence. Nothing could be further from the truth. As good as a Rice is at what he does it just isn't what united currently need at all. Since Butt left. It became essential from Keane to now for our anchor men to be able to control play from deep in addition to being a bonanfide defensive shield. Especially as their partners have offered less and less defensively, whilst becoming more of pro active chance creators than the controller Scholes morphed into in his later years
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Rice is quality. He's very consistent across the board, he doesn't have a weakness in his game and granted he might not excel in anything either but he'd provide a very solid base in the midfield. Someone who all of our players could put their trust in knowing that he won't do something stupid. Consistency as a defensive midfield is vital and he'd be a perfect foil for any player we decide to play alongside him.
A significant upgrade on all of our midfielders.
A significant upgrade on all of our midfielders.
I think he's not that agile and fast. And for a DM, his tackling is pretty average.
Huh?
besides that nonsense you’ve posted, he’s a player who’s in the right place at the right time meaning he doesn’t necessarily need to tackle.
I’m sure someone will be along with the stats soon anyway
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