If Rice wasn't English, no one would even look at him amongst the big clubs. He is all hustle but when it comes to controlling a game, he is nowhere near good enough. You need a Carrick/Matic/Busquets type player to control the tempo and midfield. Not another headless chicken running into challenges but being average on the ball.
Declan Rice
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But what about those boxes labelled first touch, passing, ability to turn away from trouble? Does he tick those?
Not saying he doesn't but at the highest level there must be question marks at least.
It's a fact. there'd be more hyperbolic shite if he wasnt english.
there's an anti-english bias with a lot of fans on here and in general tbh
Would you ever pay 70 mil for a player like Rice if he was in the Bundesliga? Bayern would laugh away from the table. Bayern would though would happily break the bank for someone like a Kimmich. That tells you a lot about the prices being bandied and the quality on offer when it comes to Rice.Who knows, he actually might be rated higher if he wasn't English.
He'd still be much less expensive though
I don't buy it. things he is criticized for like passing range, vision for example are not passport related criticisms
That is the only truthHe'd still be much less expensive though
It depends on the way you want to set up...Jorghino sits deep but very much controls the tempo of his team while players like Kante, Veratti, Kovacic, Barella, do the high octane stuff. Because Bruno is essentially one of our midfielders, we can’t play that way...he is not discipline enough and too forward thinking. So it means our midfield 2 have to be different . An out and out anchor that can’t dictate a game is how I see Rice. Therefore our number 8 becomes a hugely important position.
In short, buying Rice for a midfield 3 with Bruno leaves another conundrum-who plays 8? Technical, wants the ball under pressure in tight spaces to get us out of trouble...can play forward. To me it’s a Veratti type player. In truth, the money Rice would cost, we will be left with Fred or McT in that role and that would be paying 100 million to fix half a problem.
we need to make our scouts earn their money and pick up two cheaper options. Start with Bissouma...
In short, buying Rice for a midfield 3 with Bruno leaves another conundrum-who plays 8? Technical, wants the ball under pressure in tight spaces to get us out of trouble...can play forward. To me it’s a Veratti type player. In truth, the money Rice would cost, we will be left with Fred or McT in that role and that would be paying 100 million to fix half a problem.
we need to make our scouts earn their money and pick up two cheaper options. Start with Bissouma...
Anyway Carry on son.
You can talk with your "Rice is an English Morgan Schneiderlin"
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He really isn't a internet myth at all and was consistently superb in a team which sacrificed defensive stability for goals in a high pressure approach..He suffered a very bad injury and was ruled out for about a whole season and it's taken him a while to regain the dynamism and lost muscle mass which made him very dominant at defending spaces in a high risk approach. And the below tweet citing Bild comfirms that.
Kimmich was signed from 2nd Bundesliga and cost 8m €.
Highest ever transfer within Bundesliga was Upamecano this summer for 42m € (36m £). No Bundesliga club apart from Bayern would be able to pay 70m € (let alone what's it in £) for a player and even we only did it once. Prices in PL are a bubble due to the TV money - Grealish is the best example. It is what it is and it's certainly not Rice's fault.
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Puhlease. I'm older than you
No need, You described him that way yourself
Talented, young, has leadership qualities, prem experience, good physicality about him, potential to improve........
no mention of important things like passing range, vision. ability to dictate games, big match temperament etc
Quite weird. His passing range is good. On average, he moves the ball further than most DMs.
Plus he can play as CB if needed.Puhlease. I'm older than you
No need, You described him that way yourself
Talented, young, has leadership qualities, prem experience, good physicality about him, potential to improve........
no mention of important things like passing range, vision. ability to dictate games, big match temperament etc
What I meant was someone like Busquets in his prime would perhaps get that price tag, but for someone as limited as Rice, it's hilarious we are talking about how 70 mil is justified to be spent on him. He will be another player for whom we need to buy a top midfielder to sit beside him to control the game (see Varane for Maguire).
Time will tell I suppose.
And what I meant is that the price tag is also related to the market and not just to some pure quality of the player, whatever that is.
As for Rice, I'll have to take your word for it, I haven't seen him often but he seemed a pretty great player to me.
British players are only valued when they play abroad (Sancho pre transfer everyone was crying about him, and now people crying about Bellingham, the same with that Bayern guy who turned German). Do you even remember the hype that Gauld player got at Sporting Lisbon? Premierleague British players are looked down upon compared to so many other nations even though they fail too. (A new French/French league midfielder gets mentioned almost every summer only for them not to be that great the season after)
Or
English players are rated When they have high high levels of technique (Grealish was the most recent example). It's the easiest way to rate someone to some - through their technical ability.
The reason why some people don't rate Rice is because these people follow 'the football' during the match and don't think what Rice does technically with the ball is good enough.
My lord though what he does off the ball is great. He literally is making a team shape by himself and making your team play 3 at the back when it's needed and play with only 4 at the back when that's the best. Constantly analysing the game and where the opposition is attacking from and he is there before they get there. Just sucks up the space. 90 mins of that at the age of 22.
Sure, I wouldn't say he is worth 100 million - not many players are - especially at CDM; but there is not a player I have seen that's available that really plays the way Rice does and can give us the benefits of having him in the squad.
People putting up names like Tchouameni and Zakaria or whoever haven't really understood the tactical benefit of Rice because they don't really play the same and haven't analysed the way Rice plays.
Just sucks up the space. I'm not normally a person who is quite a fan of a player that I want United to buy him - but he is tactically very intelligent and I love that type of player in our team first than having/going for a midfielder thats running around everywhere chasing the ball - I don't think that type of midfielder is always that hard to find.
Bizarre claim unless "valued" for some reason in your mind has no connection with the amount of money that gets paid for those players when they transfer. What better way to know how players are "valued" than by what their price ends up being?
And so Grealish was 50% higher valued than Sancho which surely has above all to do with the fact that Grealish played in the PL, or even Championship, while Sancho didn't. Because it can't have been down to quality, top level experience, or resale value...
So of course it's the other way round. If you play in England, you are higher valued in that you are higher priced.
Yeah okay, players are more valued when they play here in the PL but that's through the clubs and how much they value their players.
How much fans value is different and they seem to adore these British players and couldn't care less how much is spent on them is if A) if they play abroad or B) they are technically gifted enough to catch the eye.
Sancho fits both of this.
Nearly 97% of this forum wanted Sancho. Same people were loving Grealish too and wondering how we could even fit them both in to our sides. Now there's Bellingham, whose hype goes up when moving to Dortmund (people line him up for our 2024 transfers) scores a technical goal in the Bundesliga or CL and the hype goes up again.
Bellingham was first rated and hyped in the English championship. The bundesliga merely confirmed it was spot on
There's no point as the tactically inept management will bring him down to their level.
No dm worth looking at for our club has a limited passing range. We require one with whom passing is a strength. As the bare minimum. One who would not need another creative player to be placed alongside them to be best used
Want.
Want
Want...
Will end up at Chelsea.
Want
Want...
Will end up at Chelsea.
Ok, so players like Fabinho and Rodri, or even Jorginho, would be a no for you? In my opinion, they are not limited, but they are no Carrick/Alonso, and in the same mould as Rice.
There is few players like that. None in the PL (maybe with the exception of Henderson when he plays deep).
Spot on.
Another massively, massively, massively overrated average English player. If he wasn't English then nobody here would even know his name.
This is probably the thing Rice does least.
Curious, do you go to West Ham's home/away games regularly? Genuinely asking as you have mentioned it a couple of times how others on here who don't rate him follow the ball (which is usually the case on TV), but you seem to think you follow the game as a whole all the time, which is frankly not possible on TV.
Or do you watch detailed analysis of Declan Rice by Youtubers?
Watched him a few times. He is always a busy player off the ball. The kind of CM which we should be targeting should be in the Busquets/Xabi/Carrick mould rather than a more refined Fred. To control the tempo of the play which any top team usually looks to do, Rice is not the answer. Considering that, the price tag which is slapped on him, it would be insane to argue it's worth it.
I’m under no doubt that we will not ‘fix’ the midfield just by buying one midfielder. We need 2 regardless if we buy rice or someone else. The second could be bought OR Hannibal promoted
The way i see it
——————Bruno
Hannibal—————-
————Rice————
The second spot is a b2b spot. I’ve used Hannibal here but in games where you need it tighter you could play McTominay.
VdB I’m assuming is gone unless a new manager comes in otherwise he could easily play the b2b role too
The way i see it
——————Bruno
Hannibal—————-
————Rice————
The second spot is a b2b spot. I’ve used Hannibal here but in games where you need it tighter you could play McTominay.
VdB I’m assuming is gone unless a new manager comes in otherwise he could easily play the b2b role too
I first didn't rate Rice at all because I wasn't impressed by what he was doing on the ball. I couldn't see anything on YouTube; nothing was eye catching. Phillips looked better as Yorkshire Pirlo. In the euros, I noticed how England wernt attacked the whole tournament until we parked the bus Vs Italy. Still not that convinced by Rice; very conservative on the ball, alot of back passes etc. Nothing in games that resembled Scholes/Carrick or even Keane. So I decided to watch West Ham on TV - why do people rate him? Why are Chelsea & United linked to this average player?
This is when I watched & understood him - he's never chasing the ball in a reactive way, the guy is analysing where the attack could come from; stopping the attack by going to those positions before the attacker. He sucks up the space to attack. He only makes defensive tackles once he sees his defensive mates are in their best safe positions (incase the attacker goes through him) - until then he is holding the most dangerous opposition attacking areas to stop the attack happening.
All these tactical positions influence the attack too. Is it it best time for the fullbacks & Soucek to go completely forward? Rice analyses the situation, falls back in the 2 CB'S to create a back 3. Soucek & the fullbacks are now on the other end of the pitch with a level of freedom because West Ham are now playing 3 at the back. Rice then analyses the safety, comes out as the furthest CB of the 3 (playing as a false CDM CB hybrid player) to dictate play to a good decent level and get the ball to his forward attackers or even sometimes go on a marauding run because he is quite press resistant.
As the opposition attack restarts, Rice is again analysing both positions of his team mates & opposition; deciding which channels are going to get attacked, holding those positions out so the attack slows down; allowing his team mates time to get back in to their best places. Once his team mates are there- he may intercept at this point, make a pass to a better placed player or go on a run by himself.
Tchouameni, Fred, McTominay and others are ultimately different type of midfielder to him. No way is he good as him - but the closest player to what Rice does is Frenkie De Jong during Ten Hag's semi final run. Playing as a CB/CDM hybrid in a faux back 3, analysing which version ajax needs at time - playing a positionally aware game to play in 2 lanes creating attacks both as a CB and a CDM. De Jong is obviously another level footballer and the most technical, creative version of that player. Rice is the more strong, robust defensive version of this. I think statman dave showed a video about their similarities in roles. I decided to see if Rice's performance was a one off & it wasnt - he was a very consistent player and now I'm quite the fan who wants him here.
He isn't coming for anything less than 80m and I don't think he is worth it . We are going to get robbed and it will just be another Maguire situation. For that price we can do much better especially given that we need one more midfielder and a right back (Crazy thinking we signed one 2 year back)
Whos dictating play in this lineup? In this type of formation?
Based on what? Do you believe all 3 don't have the passing ability I talked about?
In my book you are undercutting their abilities.
Jorginho ran everything for Napoli. Does the same for Italy and chelsea. He is a proper dictating passer Al Carrick.
Rodri was purchased by Pep for that reason. Alongside being able to replicate the physical and game reading attributes Fernandinho brings to the table.
Fabinho has excellent passing range. Evem dictating passing. Showed it time again in his Monaco days, were he made Timoue Bakayoko look good. At Liverpool he doesnt get to for he is used in a direct manner and most his physical attributes are brought to the for.
Rice in my book isn't as good as any of them at passing. Especially dictating passing. Which is my biggest gripe with him.
Fullbacks and Bruno
That's just total nonsense.
I believe they dont have more range than Rice, yes. I also think Rice is very effective with his passing. He moves the ball quickly, due to being able to pass well with both feet.
It is hard to argue, because some of it quite subjective. But in terms of statistics, he is great and not far behind any of these.
Out of the four (Rodri, Fabinho, Jorginho and Rice), only Rodri has a higher completion rate. Rodri is at 93%, Rice at 90 % and Jorginho/Fabinho at 89%.
Along with Rodri he is also the player who moves the ball the furthest per pass (20,5 yards). Fabinho and Jorginho is at 19 and 17,4 yards per pass respectively.
But Rice is by far the most progressive of the bunch. While Rodri, Fabinho and Jorginho moves the ball 4,0, 3,96 and 4,4 yards forward per pass, Rice moves it more than 5,2 yards forward with each pass.
Rodri is the only player out of these four who has completed more passes into the final third per 90 min, 6.89. Rice has completed 6,64 passes into the final third, while Fabinho is at 6,13 and Jorginho at 4,76.
Furtermore, he has the most shot creating passes. Per 90 min, he and Rodri is both at 2,00, while Jorginho is at 1,95 and Fabinho at 0,65. He also makes the most key passes 1,09, Jorginho is closest at 0,73. Rice has an xA of 0,11, while the others is at 0,05 and 0,03.
Say what you like about stats, I know quite a few dont care for them, but considering Rice plays for West Ham, is 22 years old, I find these numbers impressive. I compare him to three of the best players in the world, playing for Pep, Klopp and Tuchel. Not only does he match them, on several metrics, he is even better than them. The metrics where he comes short, number of passes per game, is more related to the team he plays for.
Fabinho at 22-23 had barely played a senior game in midfield while Jorginho struggled to get minutes for Napoli in Serie A.
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Rather have Ndidi over him all day long. If Rodgers gets the gig it may be possible.
Are you serious?
To multiple generations of West Ham fans he is as good as they can remember.
Look at Declan Rice skills video on YouTube. He pretty much has it all at the age of 22 and will only get better.
Anyway, this whole thread is academic, he will not be coming here, even if we stump up the asking price, he will go to Chelsea.
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Hannibal is threatening to become that player and has the range of passing/vision/play making qualities, which we hope translate to the first team.
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I hope he does.
Which is why I have him b2b. He can push forward or drop back and make it a 2
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