Declan Rice

[RkkMan]

You know we didn't pay the asking price for Sancho, so we didn't pay up, we waited. I don't think we will see us pay that kind of money for him....

COVID had completely compromised finances last year when BVB wanted €120M a figure like that was never being paid by anybody at the time. In a normal market like the one we paid £80m for Maguire we'd have happily paid more for Sancho. Next year will be a "normal" market with fans back and vaccines distributed all over the world so don't be shocked to see Utd willing to pay a little extra for Rice

 

[lex talionis]

Overhyped and overpriced, Rice would undoubtedly be a significant upgrade over Fred, for whom we paid 50m, but under Ole we’d still go with a double pivot, this raising the legitimate question whether the 100m it would take to bring in Rice would be funds well spent. There are very solid alternatives who would cost far less, and we shouldn’t give up on Garner just yet.

 

[Ramshock]

Overhyped and overpriced, Rice would undoubtedly be a significant upgrade over Fred, for whom we paid 50m, but under Ole we’d still go with a double pivot, this raising the legitimate question whether the 100m it would take to bring in Rice would be funds well spent. There are very solid alternatives who would cost far less, and we shouldn’t give up on Garner just yet.

Would he now? You know that how?

 

[Abraxas]

You know we didn't pay the asking price for Sancho, so we didn't pay up, we waited. I don't think we will see us pay that kind of money for him....

Sure, but what's the relevance to the point that we should be concerned by the knock on effect of his transfer value? We shouldn't in my opinion, we should only worry if we have the finances to do it and he's worth that much to us.

We didn't think Sancho was worth the fee they wanted as they knew the position would be different the following summer. I would doubt protecting a future negotiating position factored high within their thinking but who knows. Nothing about our dealings suggests we pay much attention to that and why should we, football finances are a runaway freight train, our transfers are of small importance within the overall landscape that influences fees.

 

[Hammondo]

Yes we bypassed the midfield when we had Pogba and Bruno pulling strings, I am sure we can do that to midfields of higher quality than the one West Ham had. As soon as Pogba was subbed off, we lost much of the ball and the quality in the middle changed.

He is an easy target for criticism because it's evident that he is the weakest part of the team. And no he does not struggle in midfield because of winger or Pogba or whoever the hell plays next to him. He gets turned, brushed of the ball, outpaced and easily bypassed because he is very average in his defensive game. He runs all day, but the quality in much of his game is lacking. Rice on the other hand has much better defensive instincts and it's not even a contest because the kid is actually a CDM, while Fred is not one.

The problem with Rice is the price being mentioned, which is stupid, if actually brought in, I am sure that he will show his quality.

We didn't against wolves or Southampton with those 2.

 

[MadMike]

Would he now? You know that how?

It's a fairly safe assumption to be fair, based on the likelihood of retaining the 4-2-3-1 formation. I don't see that formation changing so long as Bruno delivers the results he does playing free from the #10 position. I don't see us changing to 4-3-3 any time soon, do you?

 

[Ramshock]

It's a fairly safe assumption to be fair, based on the likelihood of retaining the 4-2-3-1 formation. I don't see that formation changing so long as Bruno delivers the results he does playing free from the #10 position. I don't see us changing to 4-3-3 any time soon, do you?

I think he is looking to eventually go to a 4-3-3 but doesnt have a single pivot strong enough for it. Rice could be that lad. Overpriced though I will agree with that.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

I think he is looking to eventually go to a 4-3-3 but doesnt have a single pivot strong enough for it. Rice could be that lad. Overpriced though I will agree with that.

There’s not a single CDM in the world strong enough to accommodate playing in a midfield 3 with Pogba and Bruno, even Kante couldn’t make it work for the French NT and you can argue Griezmann is still more hardworking than Bruno defensively.

Thats not even taking into account the atrocious work rate of our wide forwards, except Lingard (and imo why Ole is keen to retain him). And Ronaldo instead of Cavani in the CF position. We would be better off trying to control game and eat the occasional sucker punch through the middle rather than trying to make Pogba in CM work.

 

[Redlyn]

So what's a fair price for Rice? Basically a price point which both parties grudgingly accept but no one is really happy about it.

I would say 70m. Not sure West ham will accept less for their prized 22 yr old captain who is already a fixture in the England team. At the same time it is a lot of money for a player somewhat limited on the ball.

 

[MadMike]

I think he is looking to eventually go to a 4-3-3 but doesnt have a single pivot strong enough for it. Rice could be that lad. Overpriced though I will agree with that.

Hmm, I don't really see that to be honest. 4-3-3 means pulling Fernandes back to an #8 whereas Fernandes is actually very effective as a #10 but quite profligate with the ball to be a good #8.

The plan might be to play 4-2-3-1 with Rice-Pogba in the base of the midfield where Rice hopefully covers for the defensive inefficiencies of Pogba. Whether that works or not, is anyone's guess.

 

[lex talionis]

Would he now? You know that how?

Does a leopard have spots?

 

[AneRu]

I think he is looking to eventually go to a 4-3-3 but doesnt have a single pivot strong enough for it. Rice could be that lad. Overpriced though I will agree with that.

I think the Bruno signing and his output to date guarantees we won't revert to 4-3-3 anytime soon. He is our most important and effective player so it doesn't make sense to change tactics that may not get the best out of him.

Whilst I like Rice, I don't think he is worth anyway near what West Ham will demand for him. I also think other players like Bissouma or Tchouameni will present better value for money.

But I think he is Ole's number one but, given how our midfield seems to be shaping up with McTominay's increased importance, I think we need someone who will be more influential with the ball.

 

[Mainoldo]

Why are you assuming we will shift from 4-2-3-1, when there's zero indication we will do that? Our best player(Bruno) is ineffective in a a deeper role in a 4-3-3, so ofcourse we should not change that. We should be buying players that fit in out current system, not ones we have to change our whole system for, thats how you get signings like VdB that dont work out.

Saying our style is not meant for these players is not true either. We treat the ball like a hot potato because McT/Fred are bad on the ball. Notice how Maguire has so many touches and dithers with the ball? Its just a question of quality. If he had a tempo setter in front of him, he wouldnt need to act like the DLP. Matic struggles, because his legs are gone. Put a Carrick or Scholes in there, and they wouldnt struggle at all, hell Matic had a lot of great games in midfield last season.

We simply dont have a player of that mould. Usually players like that have a runner beside them like Henderson, Kante, Khedira, Fletcher etc. Ours would be McT/Fred. A tempo setter is not out of place in our team either, Scholes never was out of place in SAF's sides, although we were hardly tiki taka Barcelona type team.

I already said Rice and McTominay works as Rice is that guy who would shield and set the tempo. McTominay can easily do the job Soucheck does (However you spell his name).

My point was our style of play is the hinderance not the type of player. Styles come from the manager and his coaches. You thinking a deep line playmaker chances this is just very naive. I mean we have enough good players as it is and we still use the ball like a hot potato. Our best player is a key example of that too. Always giving it away.

 

[croadyman]

I think the Bruno signing and his output to date guarantees we won't revert to 4-3-3 anytime soon. He is our most important and effective player so it doesn't make sense to change tactics that may not get the best out of him.

Whilst I like Rice, I don't think he is worth anyway near what West Ham will demand for him. I also think other players like Bissouma or Tchouameni will present better value for money.

But I think he is Ole's number one but, given how our midfield seems to be shaping up with McTominay's increased importance, I think we need someone who will be more influential with the ball.

Maybe we need a poll on who people would prefer out of Bissouma/Rice

 

[Bondi77]

Maybe we need a poll on who people would prefer out of Bissouma/Rice

Never tasted Bissouma.

 

[Hammondo]

I already said Rice and McTominay works as Rice is that guy who would shield and set the tempo. McTominay can easily do the job Soucheck does (However you spell his name).

My point was our style of play is the hinderance not the type of player. Styles come from the manager and his coaches. You thinking a deep line playmaker chances this is just very naive. I mean we have enough good players as it is and we still use the ball like a hot potato. Our best player is a key example of that too. Always giving it away.

Rice isn't close to a player who can set the tempo.

 

[Mainoldo]

Rice isn't close to a player who can set the tempo.

He can pass very well. Explain to me what tempo setting is? Also we have no tempo so it really is not important. We just need someone who can screen and pass. Rice = Job done.

 

[Lash]

It’s not United setting the precedent though, city just paid 100m for grealish, Madrid just offered 200m for Mbappe. I agree that football has lost the run of itself but other clubs don’t seem to want to cap fees so where does that leave United

Do you not worry though, with you admitting that we only tend to spend 75m-80m net every year, that the price for Rice would prohbit investment elsewhere? Plus what we saw with City and Kane - "if you're willing to spend 80m on Rice, my player is worth x".

 

[RkkMan]

Do you not worry though, with you admitting that we only tend to spend 75m-80m net every year, that the price for Rice would prohbit investment elsewhere? Plus what we saw with City and Kane - "if you're willing to spend 80m on Rice, my player is worth x".

We don't need much investment elsewhere though assuming Pogba stays. After a DM maybe we'd need a ST at best and next year will likely be a kinder market for sales. Mata/Grant/Cavani are all leaving for free, Dalot/Matic will have a year left on their deals so we could sell them for cut price fees and Martial looks nailed on to leave. You could add Henderson if DDG keeps up his form and VDB if Pogba and Lingard sign new deals.

 

[Lash]

We don't need much investment elsewhere though assuming Pogba stays. After a DM maybe we'd need a ST at best and next year will likely be a kinder market for sales. Mata/Grant/Cavani are all leaving for free, Dalot/Matic will have a year left on their deals so we could sell them for cut price fees and Martial looks nailed on to leave. You could add Henderson if DDG keeps up his form and VDB if Pogba and Lingard sign new deals.

Well we will see at the end of the year, but I'm not so sure we're going to come to the end of the season and go: "If we'd have had Rice, we'd have won the league/cup/whatever".

 

[golden_blunder]

Do you not worry though, with you admitting that we only tend to spend 75m-80m net every year, that the price for Rice would prohbit investment elsewhere? Plus what we saw with City and Kane - "if you're willing to spend 80m on Rice, my player is worth x".

Off course but whilst city etc continue to break the mould we will continue to be left behind. Unless the owners are prepared to break their transfer structure (unlikely), it means we just have to build at a different pace. One plus point if that is that the manager has to be sure that the players are the right fit for United snd so far he’s got more right than wrong

 

[Lash]

Off course but whilst city etc continue to break the mould we will continue to be left behind. Unless the owners are prepared to break their transfer structure (unlikely), it means we just have to build at a different pace. One plus point if that is that the manager has to be sure that the players are the right fit for United snd so far he’s got more right than wrong

Fair points. I'm not sure what's more of a gamble though, building at a different pace and spending big money on players, or now trying to get more value to try and address more areas of the squad - which obvioulsy might not yield results either.

 

[lifted]

It’s not United setting the precedent though, city just paid 100m for grealish, Madrid just offered 200m for Mbappe. I agree that football has lost the run of itself but other clubs don’t seem to want to cap fees so where does that leave United

I think £75m for VVD was also a precursor for how much we paid for Maguire too.

 

[MadMike]

He can pass very well. Explain to me what tempo setting is? Also we have no tempo so it really is not important. We just need someone who can screen and pass. Rice = Job done.

In my opinion, that's a fairly low requirement for a CDM and not really worth 9 figures or anywhere near it.

Major gripe about Rice is the price to be honest. I think he's good at what he does, especially for his age, but because the requirement is fairly limited, I value him as £50m-60m player. There's about a dozen players that do what he does at the same level and will cost less than half, they just might be 2-3 years older and not English. And for those who say "why do you care, the money is not coming out of your pocket", so long as the club has finite financial resources it affects the club's transfer strategy and I care about that.

Additionally, people are being really short-sighted if they think we only need a CDM next summer to replace Matic, in my opinion. We tried to sign a RB (Trippier) in the summer and failed, which only tells me we're likely to be back out on the market for a RB next season unless Dalot convinces Ole. There's also there's a distinct possibility that Pogba won't renew and will leave. On top of that it's quite doubtful at the moment that Donny will become the playmaking CM we want him to be and that he'll be here past next summer. In that case we might well need a playmaking CM to replace those two and bring some genuine passing ability to our midfield. Finally Cavani will surely be leaving next summer and Martial's days are starting to look numbered too. With Ronaldo 37 and on his final year we'll need another option upfront and a succession plan. So we might be in for a striker as well.

In other words, we might be in for the usual 3-4 players, like every summer basically. Spending all, or the vast majority, of our transfer money on Rice doesn't sound like clever strategy to me.

 

[Kostov]

So what's a fair price for Rice? Basically a price point which both parties grudgingly accept but no one is really happy about it.

I would say 70m. Not sure West ham will accept less for their prized 22 yr old captain who is already a fixture in the England team. At the same time it is a lot of money for a player somewhat limited on the ball.

There is no fair price for Rice really. We paid 50m+ for Fred the average ball chasing zero quality on the ball, most un brazilian midfielder out there who was also older, there is not reason why would West Ham settle for less than 70m, which is outrageous.

 

[Mainoldo]

In my opinion, that's a fairly low requirement for a CDM and not really worth 9 figures or anywhere near it.

Major gripe about Rice is the price to be honest. I think he's good at what he does, especially for his age, but because the requirement is fairly limited, I value him as £50m-60m player. There's about a dozen players that do what he does at the same level and will cost less than half, they just might be 2-3 years older and not English. And for those who say "why do you care, the money is not coming out of your pocket", so long as the club has finite financial resources it affects the club's transfer strategy and I care about that.

Additionally, people are being really short-sighted if they think we only need a CDM next summer to replace Matic, in my opinion. We tried to sign a RB (Trippier) in the summer and failed, which only tells me we're likely to be back out on the market for a RB next season unless Dalot convinces Ole. There's also there's a distinct possibility that Pogba won't renew and will leave. On top of that it's quite doubtful at the moment that Donny will become the playmaking CM we want him to be and that he'll be here past next summer. In that case we might well need a playmaking CM to replace those two and bring some genuine passing ability to our midfield. Finally Cavani will surely be leaving next summer and Martial's days are starting to look numbered too. With Ronaldo 37 and on his final year we'll need another option upfront and a succession plan. So we might be in for a striker as well.

In other words, we might be in for the usual 3-4 players, like every summer basically. Spending all, or the vast majority, of our transfer money on Rice doesn't sound like clever strategy to me.

That’s fair. But I disagree it’s time to settle on the transfer front and get this team playing good football. 1-2 transfers next summer is enough.

 

[MadMike]

That’s fair. But I disagree it’s time to settle on the transfer front and get this team playing good football. 1-2 transfers next summer is enough.

Depends what we mean by settle, there's always a bunch of criteria being evaluated to create a list of targets on order of priority.

Say Rice is Ole's first option, not specifically for quality reasons but maybe because he is young and English and fits the mould of the squad being built just a tad better (I'm obviously speculating on the reasons here). Is that worth double the price over someone like Bissouma? And is going for the latter really settling? On some of the criteria, yes perhaps. But are those what will make the difference in the football the team plays? Will the team not play good football with Bissouma instead of Rice in CDM?

To get to the point, I think what matters more is quality and I think there's a few options where I really don't feel that we'd settling on quality. I feel forking out a wad of of cash to pay "English tax" is only warranted when that player is also by far the best option available for that position in the market. We felt that way about Sancho when we went for him in 2020 I guess. I don't feel like that's the case with Rice, I feel there's a few options at his level who would cost a lot less.

If Ole and the scouts feel Rice is clearly superior to the other options, the ok I hold my hands up. I have my doubts that's the case though.

 

[RkkMan]

 

[Mainoldo]

Depends what we mean by settle, there's always a bunch of criteria being evaluated to create a list of targets on order of priority.

Say Rice is Ole's first option, not specifically for quality reasons but maybe because he is young and English and fits the mould of the squad being built just a tad better (I'm obviously speculating on the reasons here). Is that worth double the price over someone like Bissouma? And is going for the latter really settling? On some of the criteria, yes perhaps. But are those what will make the difference in the football the team plays? Will the team not play good football with Bissouma instead of Rice in CDM?

To get to the point, I think what matters more is quality and I think there's a few options where I really don't feel that we'd settling on quality. I feel forking out a wad of of cash to pay "English tax" is only warranted when that player is also by far the best option available for that position in the market. We felt that way about Sancho when we went for him in 2020 I guess. I don't feel like that's the case with Rice, I feel there's a few options at his level who would cost a lot less.

If Ole and the scouts feel Rice is clearly superior to the other options, the ok I hold my hands up. I have my doubts that's the case though.

Who is though. I can't name much better for us?

 

[MadMike]

Who is though. I can't name much better for us?

There's a misunderstanding I feel. My point is that they don't need to be better (let alone much better) if they are half the price. They just need to be of the same quality. It's Rice who has to be much better if he's going to cost something close to 9 figures.

Experienced ones: Bissouma, NDidi, Brozovic, Palhinha, Bennacer.

Younger ones: Tchouameni, Boubacar Kamara

 

[Lash]

There's a misunderstanding I feel. My point is that they don't need to be better (let alone much better) if they are half the price. They just need to be of same quality. It's Rice who has to be much better if he's going to cost something close to 9 figures.

Experienced ones: Bissouma, NDidi, Brozovic, Palhinha, Bennacer.

Younger ones: Tchouameni, Boubacar Kamara

I'm actually becoming very warm to this guy the more I watch him. Especially at the potential price.

My best pal is a Naples fan and I actually think we probably missed a cheap option with Anguissa.

 

[MadMike]

I'm actually becoming very warm to this guy the more I watch him. Especially at the potential price.

My best pal is a Naples fan and I actually think we probably missed a cheap option with Anguissa.

Tchouameni and Kamara look very promising but they both carry the risk of taking time to adapt to the EPL. Because they are young, less experienced and play in a weaker league. Same risks Sancho carried essentially and now we're seeing some of that. Of course there is also the risk they might never turn out as good as we expect. They are riskier transfers than Rice, in my opinion, which is why I put them separately.

Bissouma and Ndidi are currently the two best shielding CDMs in the EPL outside of the big 4 teams (City, United, Liverpool, Chelsea) in my opinion. They have also been doing it consistently for at least 3 years and they would cost less than Rice because they don't have English tax.

 

[Kostov]

Do you not worry though, with you admitting that we only tend to spend 75m-80m net every year, that the price for Rice would prohbit investment elsewhere? Plus what we saw with City and Kane - "if you're willing to spend 80m on Rice, my player is worth x".

Didn't we do the same already when we bought Fred for 50m pounds? I am sure West Ham would do the same.

 

[Mainoldo]

There's a misunderstanding I feel. My point is that they don't need to be better (let alone much better) if they are half the price. They just need to be of the same quality. It's Rice who has to be much better if he's going to cost something close to 9 figures.

Experienced ones: Bissouma, NDidi, Brozovic, Palhinha, Bennacer.

Younger ones: Tchouameni, Boubacar Kamara

I get you. I just think for the manager and style of play we have. Rice is the best fit to come in and adopt straight away to what we need.

I love Kamara... I like his style a lot. Glad to see I'm not the only one to notice him.

 

[Lash]

Didn't we do the same already when we bought Fred for 50m pounds? I am sure West Ham would do the same.

That's not the same window though, plus no one would argue he's worth that now.

 

[Devil may care]

Ndidi will be massively overpriced as well and arguably offers even less on the ball than Rice.

 

[Kostov]

There's a misunderstanding I feel. My point is that they don't need to be better (let alone much better) if they are half the price. They just need to be of the same quality. It's Rice who has to be much better if he's going to cost something close to 9 figures.

Experienced ones: Bissouma, NDidi, Brozovic, Palhinha, Bennacer.

Younger ones: Tchouameni, Boubacar Kamara

Nor sure how much Bissouma would cost, but Ndidi won't be cheaper regardless of his nationality, Brozovic is not good enough and 29 by the end of the year, Bennacer is no update on what we have, but Palhinha or whatever his hame is is a very very good option imo.

 

[Kostov]

Ndidi will be massively overpriced as well and arguably offers even less on the ball than Rice.

Also injury prone if I am not mistaken.

 

[Kostov]

That's not the same window though, plus no one would argue he's worth that now.

Well yeah, but City just spent 100m for a player that they not even need, so the window will not be any more appealing imo. Fred was also older, from a 3rd grade league and from a selling club. West Ham would probably feel that they can skin as alive.

 

[MadMike]

I get you. I just think for the manager and style of play we have. Rice is the best fit to come in and adopt straight away to what we need.

I love Kamara... I like his style a lot. Glad to see I'm not the only one to notice him.

Well fair enough, I can understand that opinion. Can I ask what part of Rice's playstyle you think makes him more compatible to us than.. say Bissouma?