Declan Rice

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Deery said:
Just looks like a centre back in midfield to me, give it 2 years people will be scratching their heads at how he’s ever been valued at £80m.
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Well he did start at centre back but I totally disagree. He has progressed at West Ham year on year. His positioning and reading of the game has always been excellent, his passign is limited but generally he seems to have the right weight of pass over short distances. But he is developing his game more the last 7/8 months with driving runs we are seeing a lot more already this season and getting more involved further up the field.

Its just personal opinion, but I find it laughable Phillips was England player of the year and some would prefer him over Rice. I really like Phillips how he comes across as a person on camera and he has a better passign range of course than Rice.....but for me he is naive winnign the ball back, his tackling is average, his reading of the game is average etc etc.

As for the price tag, yes it is high considering the number of talented young midfielders around Europe that could cost a fraction of the price....but from West Hams side, I understand it. He is a young player captaining the club who seems to have a great personality within the dressign room too which shouldnt be under estimated. He really isnt easy for them to replace keeping all of that in mind. Why would they sell him for £40/50m? People were also talking about Grealish and the price beign absurd at £70m not long ago and now he goes for £100m, we paid £80m odd for Maguire, a similar fee for Sancho who as talented as he is.....was there a queue of other top clubs in for him? Personally think all of those transfers were over priced but when you look at the fees for English players being paid, is £80m actually so absurd as this is the premeirship in England not France so the players never align unless we are talking of superstars.

RIce wouldnt be my first choice, not even as an ENglish player as that would be Bellingham, but I certainyl wouldnt be dissapointed if we did sign him as I think he would improve us significantly in midfield
 
Mainoldo said:
There only deficiencies because of our style of play. We don’t focus on retaining the ball. Thiago losses the ball just as much as a Pogba VDB.
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If you think Pogba or VdB are as secure on the ball in deeper areas compares to the likes of Thiago or Jorginho, I dont know what to tell you. I'm one of Pogba's biggest fans, and even I would tell you that his weakness is he dallies on the ball for too long, gets crowded out and then loses it. Players like Thiago/Jorginho/Veratti control the tempo of the game in a way Pogba cannot(because he is not a natural CM), and also are much more defensively secure than Pogba/VdB. They know when to keep it simple, know when to go long, know when to slow it down, and know when to speed it up. We dont have a player like that in our team, and havent since the days of Scholes and Carrick.

luke511 said:
Not really, Rice would be Matic's replacement and you could partner him up with McTominay, Pogba, VDB, Fred.
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If we partner him with McT and Fred, that defeats the point of people who are saying "we play McT and Fred, because we dont have a dedicated DM and we need 2 players to do that job".

VdB is a big question mark and wayyyy down the pecking order. And Pogba cannot be trusted in a two man midfield, particularly not in big games, because he is not press resistant. Hannibal is a youth player.

Chances if, even if we buy Rice, our midfield would either be Rice-Fred or Rice-McT.
 
I want him to be a Manchester United player because I think he is good at the role he does and it fulfils a need that we have.

Apologies if I have offended anybody with my opinion but I think I had to say it.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
If you look at his stats at club level it's pretty clear that he's excellent at the defensive side of the game but where he's different to a player like Ndidi is that he's also an excellent long range passer. His expected assists is also at the higher level. He does take corners but he's also very good at through balls. He gets dribbled past a lot but as you say Leeds often leave him completely exposed. I think in a double pivot as the CDM he could shine.

https://fbref.com/en/players/4f565d77/scout/365_euro/Kalvin-Phillips-Scouting-Report
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Interesting you say that as for me in the Euros, this was something that made me woonder why people were ravig so much about him , as jsut didnt see it. Remember he WAS in a double pivot with Rice as the more forward player. Of coruse its international football which is different, though for me I think the problem would be worse at club football.

When ever I see Phillips he always seem far to over enthusiastic in trying to win the ball back, so so often he over exerts himself pressing and just gets turned, passed by or gives away a foul. It happened serveral times in virtually every game at the Euros.

I think Phillips is a decent player dont get me wrong, but I really dont get the fanfare and hype. He has a good range of passing at a decent level, but it isnt exceptional or a Yorkshire Pirlo, thats pure daft. The rest of his game is pretty average. For me at least there is no way he should e starting for ENgland like he seems to be now
 
shahzy said:
He's not much better than Mctom who I also don't rate. We need much much better if you want to be a top team that CONTROLS games
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Personally find the McTom comparisons lazy and not right either. See it so often from fans, explayers and pundits too.

Similar build, age and position. Both from the UK and neither excel technically. For me Rice is miles ahead of McTominay in terms of positioning and reading the game, he adds far more to us defensively that Mctominay does. Currently Mctominay just doesnt have that to his game, he does have the energy and strength winign the ball bacl, Rice more often nicks it. The only real similarity we are starting to see as McTominay has been progressign with it for a while and Rice is starting to, is driving powerful runs.

Personally unless we see VDB step up this season (which I doubt) or Hannibal really break throug which I also doubt more to lack of regular opportunities, I feel we actually need two central midfielders next summer (as I did this summer). We are obsessed with a ball playing midfielder though we already have a great one in Pogba.....that cant defend or read the game though. Of coruse a good all rounder who is excellent technically and passign would be great (maybe Hannibal can become that). But I disagree with the not needing Rice when we hahave McTominay, I actually think a McRice partnership would be very good in a lot of the bigger games for us, a far better version of the current McFred one
 
jesperjaap said:
Interesting you say that as for me in the Euros, this was something that made me woonder why people were ravig so much about him , as jsut didnt see it. Remember he WAS in a double pivot with Rice as the more forward player. Of coruse its international football which is different, though for me I think the problem would be worse at club football.

When ever I see Phillips he always seem far to over enthusiastic in trying to win the ball back, so so often he over exerts himself pressing and just gets turned, passed by or gives away a foul. It happened serveral times in virtually every game at the Euros.

I think Phillips is a decent player dont get me wrong, but I really dont get the fanfare and hype. He has a good range of passing at a decent level, but it isnt exceptional or a Yorkshire Pirlo, thats pure daft. The rest of his game is pretty average. For me at least there is no way he should e starting for ENgland like he seems to be now
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Phillips plays ahead of Rice for England, he plays as the box to box 8 while Rice is the CDM. Phillips was pressing really high up the pitch for England. A lot of the good stuff he does for England is through pressing and workrate. He ran a lot further than anyone else in the team at the Euros. He plays a different role to the one at club level where he remains deep, gets on the ball and passes more.

https://theathletic.co.uk/2649318/2...nd-exploit-croatia-being-pulled-out-of-shape/

I'm not saying that we should sign him though.
 
Rice is a pure sitting DM, the likes of which have not played for the club very often. He'll make us defensively very solid and his passing is decent enough to facilitate the transition from defense to attack. If paired with Mctominay who is a strong ball winner with a decent eye for a pass and a goal, it'll suit us to a tee.

I can totally see why ole wants him in the team.
 
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https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...an-rice-transfer-west-ham-nolan-b1923950.html

Seems West Ham staff are still rumbling on about a £100m player. Rice did reject the contract extension offered in July over his valuation, but the numpty signed a 7 year deal with them in 2018 which keeps him tied down for another 4 years till 2025. West Ham hold all the cards for now.
 
Gonçalo Motta said:
It's not like he is a bad player but it doesn't make sense paying premium for a player that isn't that great when we have João Palhinha that looks like the real deal and will be a lot cheaper (and everyone knows that if you want to buy high-quality portuguese players for a decent price, Sporting is always a good choice :lol:)
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You’re right. You can get good quality at LIDL instead of going to Harrods.

West Ham and Sporting though, which is which?
 
Inigo Montoya said:
You’re right. You can get good quality at LIDL instead of going to Harrods.

West Ham and Sporting though, which is which?
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Well, I'm guessing in this analogy Sporting is Harrods since Ronaldo, Nani and Bruno Fernandes came from there :rolleyes:
I think the only miss was Rojo but he isn't Portuguese so he doesn't count :D
 
Inigo Montoya said:
That’s the end of that then. Kane levels of stupidity
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The coach isn’t simply speaking his mind there either. This is a consistent line they’ve been peddling since before the Euros and it comes from the owners. The Athletic was reporting that that was their valuation since back in March…

https://theathletic.com/2434616/2021/03/09/is-declan-rice-worth-100-million/

And since then we’ve had a couple of 100m transfers (Grealish and Lukaku) that would only have emboldened them. You can see their reasoning: If Grealish, the 26yo from Aston Villa who doesn’t even start for England, is worth £100m then why not our 22yo Declan who is a starter and the best English DM?

And while I think I don’t think they are fully serious about the 100m, I very much doubt they’d entertain offers much below 80m while he has 4 years left on his contract and they are under no pressure to sell.

For me we’d be mad to try and sign him at those prices. He is good, but he’s not that good and for that money you can buy not one but two CDMs at his level. We also don’t have the luxury of waiting a couple of years till the contract length starts becoming a factor for West Ham.
 
Deery said:
Just looks like a centre back in midfield to me, give it 2 years people will be scratching their heads at how he’s ever been valued at £80m.
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If Ben White is a £50m defender you can understand why Rice would be £50m+ in West Ham’s eyes.
 
Adnan said:
Monaco are owned by a Oligarch and will sell on their terms IMO. It would still be cheaper than what West Ham would want for Rice but I can see Monaco possibly holding out for more now that the player is a full international for France. And I like him and if I'm not mistaken I was the first poster to bring up his name in the transfer forum. Monaco bought him from Bordeaux for about €20m and it was said by a Le Parisien journo that he was also followed by United scouts. But if people think signing Tchouameni is gonna elevate us into a team that is gonna dominate possession alongside either McFred against the best midfields, then they're very much mistaken IMO.

McTominay and Fred are runners, spoilers etc but they don't have the craft and guile that we need in midfield to match the best in Europe and that's how I judge our team and players. But if either player had the ability to recycle play and retain possession whilst maintaining a high level of discipline next to a creative #8, then we wouldn't need to have a conversation about signing a player with a strong defensive game. Bryan Robson who you mentioned in your earlier posts was the greatest box to box midfielder I ever saw at United of his kind. McFred are not in his league and I foresee us setting up to react against the very best teams on the counter with both players in the team and hope our superb attacking players will make up the deficit in midfield from a creative POV.

I could be wrong and Hannibal might not be good enough. But I'm hoping to see him get a chance sooner rather than later. And we also have to understand that the game has evolved in some aspects and many teams are very good at applying coordinated pressure whether that be pressing high, pressing the wide receiver or even counter pressing after losing the ball to make up for their own vulnerability in defensive transition. So IMO the composition of the midfield has to factor in the above because the above scenarios won't allow too much time on the ball against teams that are well drilled off the ball which causes a problem and has caused problems for deep lying playmakers due not being afforded the time they became accustomed to.

Personally I'm a firm believer in the deepest midfielder being someone who will recycle possession to a high level with out taking too many risks due to the dangers posed by teams who are very good at winning the ball back high up the pitch in a coordinated approach. That will then create conditions for a Luka Modric or Toni Kroos to drop into the defensive half space off the ball and help with the build up. This is what I feel people don't understand and I personally see the potential in a midfield which consists of a DM Rice or Tchouameni with Bellingham as the #6/#8 and Hannibal as the most advanced midfielder of the three. Not sure if it'll work but it's a combination that could really grow in the coming seasons IMO and go toe to toe with the very best potentially.
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I thought the Monaco owner stopped plowing money into the club when his wife found out he was plowing someone else, divorced him and took half. At the top end of their valuation I think we'd still looking at £30M price differential between the two. I agree that neither Tchouameni or Rice paired with either of McFred will make us a better possession team, we'll just be defensively stronger, they need to be paired with a playmaker.

Agreed mate, Robson was a true box to box, top quality at both ends, Lothar Mathaus was the only ne better I've seen in my lifetime. McTominay is closer to a Nicky Butt level squad midfielder, and in truth similar is happening with Rice, he's a very good young DM but some act like he's the 2nd coming of Rijkaard or Redondo, when in truth he's at least a couple of levels below Carrick.

I'd love to be proven wrong and for Hannibal to get some games this season, but with Ole currently favouring a midfield out of the 80's I'm just not positive it's going to happen. I think Real Madrid's midfield blueprint is pretty close to what you're saying and I love the potential of that midfield 3, but with Bruno so central to Ole's way of setting up I can't see us changing to a 4-3-3 any time soon.
 
Devil may care said:
I thought the Monaco owner stopped plowing money into the club when his wife found out he was plowing someone else, divorced him and took half. At the top end of their valuation I think we'd still looking at £30M price differential between the two. I agree that neither Tchouameni or Rice paired with either of McFred will make us a better possession team, we'll just be defensively stronger, they need to be paired with a playmaker.

Agreed mate, Robson was a true box to box, top quality at both ends, Lothar Mathaus was the only ne better I've seen in my lifetime. McTominay is closer to a Nicky Butt level squad midfielder, and in truth similar is happening with Rice, he's a very good young DM but some act like he's the 2nd coming of Rijkaard or Redondo, when in truth he's at least a couple of levels below Carrick.

I'd love to be proven wrong and for Hannibal to get some games this season, but with Ole currently favouring a midfield out of the 80's I'm just not positive it's going to happen. I think Real Madrid's midfield blueprint is pretty close to what you're saying and I love the potential of that midfield 3, but with Bruno so central to Ole's way of setting up I can't see us changing to a 4-3-3 any time soon.
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He appealed the decision over the settlement and won. Which meant his ex Wife only received $600m of the $4.8b the court initially granted her in the settlement from what I read. So he recovered the situation quite well with all things considered. But having said that, Monaco are a selling club and will sell, but on their terms. So if I was to guess I'd say around £40m to £50m will be the likely price, which would still be cheaper than what West Ham would probably want for Rice. But that's just me speculating. But as far as value signings go, Bissouma could be a player that could likely be available for a reasonable price with his contract running down.

But whether we sign Rice, Tchouameni or Bissouma, pairing the aforementioned three with either Fred or McTominay will mean ceding the midfield against high quality teams. That's not a midfield which is constructed for possession play against the best midfields IMO.

The Real Madrid blue print with Casemiro at the base and Modric, Kroos either side was a great midfield which proved itself in a spectacular way and had a blend of art and industry which is very important in the game today IMO.

The game has changed from the 80s and 90s where both midfielders were expected to get forward aswell as defend in defensive transition in a 4-4-2 formation. I've even been asked questions on here if I thought the reason we struggled for periods in Europe under Fergie was because we played with a 2 man midfield. And sadly I never got the chance to respond due to being side tracked at the time. But we struggled IMO because we didn't have a midfield due to both midfielders being out of position in a approach that was described in the media as being 'gung-ho' at the time, which meant the likes of Bayern and Madrid picked us off comfortably in offensive transition with huge gaps on offer for them to exploit. So Carlos Queiroz arrived and gave Fergie something to think about and made us a more tactical team in different phases of play which would then culminate in us winning the European Cup in 2008. So I agree with you mate regarding the composition of our midfield. I like yourself prefer the Real Madrid blue print which was a midfield that could bang with the best and was also strong in defensive transition. I'll be honest with you, I'm hoping the McFred pairing isn't here to stay and we look to evolve the midfield where we bring in players who will help us compete on a equal footing against the likes of Verratti, Kimmich, Modric, Kroos etc who are superb technicians.

So our problem wasn't the 2 man midfield but rather our approach against the elite sides which meant we afforded them too much space in transition due to our overly offensive approach IMO.
 
Highfather_24 said:
If you think Pogba or VdB are as secure on the ball in deeper areas compares to the likes of Thiago or Jorginho, I dont know what to tell you. I'm one of Pogba's biggest fans, and even I would tell you that his weakness is he dallies on the ball for too long, gets crowded out and then loses it. Players like Thiago/Jorginho/Veratti control the tempo of the game in a way Pogba cannot(because he is not a natural CM), and also are much more defensively secure than Pogba/VdB. They know when to keep it simple, know when to go long, know when to slow it down, and know when to speed it up. We dont have a player like that in our team, and havent since the days of Scholes and Carrick.



If we partner him with McT and Fred, that defeats the point of people who are saying "we play McT and Fred, because we dont have a dedicated DM and we need 2 players to do that job".

VdB is a big question mark and wayyyy down the pecking order. And Pogba cannot be trusted in a two man midfield, particularly not in big games, because he is not press resistant. Hannibal is a youth player.

Chances if, even if we buy Rice, our midfield would either be Rice-Fred or Rice-McT.
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Yep if you want to play 4231. But if you don’t, they are fine in that area.

I find it funny people want these tempo setters Yet I repeat we treat the ball like a hot potato. Our style isn’t made for these players they will look like Matic. All those you named don’t have the legs for this.
 
zenith said:
Rice is a pure sitting DM, the likes of which have not played for the club very often. He'll make us defensively very solid and his passing is decent enough to facilitate the transition from defense to attack. If paired with Mctominay who is a strong ball winner with a decent eye for a pass and a goal, it'll suit us to a tee.

I can totally see why ole wants him in the team.
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I see that working and being solid as a pivot. They would complement eachother.
 
zenith said:
Rice is a pure sitting DM, the likes of which have not played for the club very often. He'll make us defensively very solid and his passing is decent enough to facilitate the transition from defense to attack. If paired with Mctominay who is a strong ball winner with a decent eye for a pass and a goal, it'll suit us to a tee.

I can totally see why ole wants him in the team.
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That's until a team presses us and both hide from the ball, no thanks.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
I want him to be a Manchester United player because I think he is good at the role he does and it fulfils a need that we have.

Apologies if I have offended anybody with my opinion but I think I had to say it.
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Have you seen the numbers being bandied about?
 
Cant we just bring in a midfielder from Sporting or other clubs from another league instead? 30-40m might get you a decent midfielder.
 
Seems West Ham staff are still rumbling on about a £100m player. Rice did reject the contract extension offered in July over his valuation, but the numpty signed a 7 year deal with them in 2018 which keeps him tied down for another 4 years till 2025. West Ham hold all the cards for now.
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With £100m we might look for another alternative.. Mendes/Ndidi would be a cheaper options
 
zenith said:
Rice is a pure sitting DM, the likes of which have not played for the club very often. He'll make us defensively very solid and his passing is decent enough to facilitate the transition from defense to attack. If paired with Mctominay who is a strong ball winner with a decent eye for a pass and a goal, it'll suit us to a tee.

I can totally see why ole wants him in the team.
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I don't think that's the case.

Ole has chopped and changed the midfield alot.

Matic and Mctominay hasn't really been a partnership.

Matic's number 1 partner has been Pogba.
Matic's second partner has been Fred.

That's why if Rice is coming to replace Matic then he will play next to Pogba. Its why I only see Rice happening if Pogba stays in the first place anyway. Which just doesn't seem happening as a signature doesn't take too long to do.

People complain about Rice not being Carrick - but he is the balanced approach to our strongest 11 including someone like Rashford out at LW (we have looked like we could use another goalscorer in our starting 11); with someone like Pogba trying to be someone more like Scholes in midfield - with a pure creative duty than a player like Carrick with anything defensive he has to do.

All defensive work falls on Rice's shoulder & that's why some like him - and some do not.
 
Rice would improve us the same way any other 40-50m rated midfielders would. For 100m valuation, let's just move on.
 
pratyush_utd said:
Well then we can agree to disagree because we were bypassing the midfield West Ham had with quite ease despite Rice playing for them. I cant see Rice being any sort of an upgrade over Fred. And yes Fred had good last season. He is an easy target for criticism but any midfielder will struggle when our wingers provide next to no help in defense. Rice plays in a team which had 9 men defending alongside him and we still created so many chances. For us Rice will look no better than what Fred looks for us.
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Yes we bypassed the midfield when we had Pogba and Bruno pulling strings, I am sure we can do that to midfields of higher quality than the one West Ham had. As soon as Pogba was subbed off, we lost much of the ball and the quality in the middle changed.

He is an easy target for criticism because it's evident that he is the weakest part of the team. And no he does not struggle in midfield because of winger or Pogba or whoever the hell plays next to him. He gets turned, brushed of the ball, outpaced and easily bypassed because he is very average in his defensive game. He runs all day, but the quality in much of his game is lacking. Rice on the other hand has much better defensive instincts and it's not even a contest because the kid is actually a CDM, while Fred is not one.

The problem with Rice is the price being mentioned, which is stupid, if actually brought in, I am sure that he will show his quality.
 
Mainoldo said:
Yep if you want to play 4231. But if you don’t, they are fine in that area.

I find it funny people want these tempo setters Yet I repeat we treat the ball like a hot potato. Our style isn’t made for these players they will look like Matic. All those you named don’t have the legs for this.
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Why are you assuming we will shift from 4-2-3-1, when there's zero indication we will do that? Our best player(Bruno) is ineffective in a a deeper role in a 4-3-3, so ofcourse we should not change that. We should be buying players that fit in out current system, not ones we have to change our whole system for, thats how you get signings like VdB that dont work out.

Saying our style is not meant for these players is not true either. We treat the ball like a hot potato because McT/Fred are bad on the ball. Notice how Maguire has so many touches and dithers with the ball? Its just a question of quality. If he had a tempo setter in front of him, he wouldnt need to act like the DLP. Matic struggles, because his legs are gone. Put a Carrick or Scholes in there, and they wouldnt struggle at all, hell Matic had a lot of great games in midfield last season.

We simply dont have a player of that mould. Usually players like that have a runner beside them like Henderson, Kante, Khedira, Fletcher etc. Ours would be McT/Fred. A tempo setter is not out of place in our team either, Scholes never was out of place in SAF's sides, although we were hardly tiki taka Barcelona type team.
 
I'm on the Rice bandwagon.

Until the 'alternatives' convince me. I'll still be on it.

Price is not an issue...If United and Rice are interested it will happen.
 
GueRed said:
I'm on the Rice bandwagon.

Until the 'alternatives' convince me. I'll still be on it.

Price is not an issue...If United and Rice are interested it will happen.
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.....because you pay £80m for Rice, you set an unhealthy financial precedent. Any further transfer negotiations with other clubs will be based on that.
 
Litch said:
.....because you pay £80m for Rice, you set an unhealthy financial precedent. Any further transfer negotiations with other clubs will be based on that.
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How's it going to make any difference, we paid 80 million for Harry Maguire - why are we suddenly drawing a line in the sand now?

Everyone knows we'll pay up when we really want the player. But we'll still have a valuation. If the club deem Rice is worth the money to us they aren't going to be worried about this at all, getting the player is the concern.
 
Abraxas said:
How's it going to make any difference, we paid 80 million for Harry Maguire - why are we suddenly drawing a line in the sand now?

Everyone knows we'll pay up when we really want the player. But we'll still have a valuation. If the club deem Rice is worth the money to us they aren't going to be worried about this at all, getting the player is the concern.
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You know we didn't pay the asking price for Sancho, so we didn't pay up, we waited. I don't think we will see us pay that kind of money for him....
 
We spent a lot last summer…don’t the glazers usually have quiet summers have one good one or am is my memory off
 
He can't control a game the way Keano did and for that money he would want to.

People are talking about someone who's gonna boss midfield like Keane Carrick or Scholes. This guy ain't it.

He's snappy in the tackle and he can keep it well enough but he's very limited and considering we have no metronome in there, I would suggest we go looking for one of them. We have 2 guys already who can tackle.

We need a Veratti, Thiago, Pirlo etc.

I liked the look at Kessie of Milan. He'd be way better for us. Controlling the tempo with excellent technique while Fred or Scott go foraging.
 
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This is the biggest English tax I have ever seen on a player. Its quite a ridiculous amount and one I dont see United going anywhere for. Even if Rice tries to pull a Kane and push for a move, I dont see them budging.
 
Litch said:
.....because you pay £80m for Rice, you set an unhealthy financial precedent. Any further transfer negotiations with other clubs will be based on that.
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It’s not United setting the precedent though, city just paid 100m for grealish, Madrid just offered 200m for Mbappe. I agree that football has lost the run of itself but other clubs don’t seem to want to cap fees so where does that leave United
 
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