Declan Rice

[golden_blunder]

Nope, I'm just saying that the rational behind why we play deeper and or why we play with two holding midfielders is because we dont trust the recovery of our central defenders especially Maguire.
Of course we cant, the investment on him is astronomical and he is the least of our problem at the moment. But I wont be surprised that in two or three years from now, perhaps with another manager, he might not be irreplaceable

Ok that sounds logical.
Your last post didn’t come across like that

 

[croadyman]

I can see that and the difference in some of their technique - but my biggest problem with United and their midfield is two things:

1) The use of the 4231 over a 433 - do we really need two CDM when we have such a potentially capable defensive back 4 in AWB, Varane, Maguire and Shaw? Having 2 CDM as a tactical set up of our team is stopping us having an extra attacking player somewhere up the pitch. Surely that's important to break a low block team just as much as a DLP may be? All these CDM of top clubs that are capable of holding two CM in front of them are hardly ever just the pure deep lying playmaker all the time are they?

2) I say this because I feel that United are at a time when we need two different types of CDM and not just one. This is why some may see the importance of Rice - whilst someone else maybe craving Camavinga or Neves. If we did get Neves, could you see him holding a Pogba and Bruno partnership by himself the way someone like Matic was able to do if for a short while? I say this because even though alot of us want a deep lying playmaker within the squad - I believe that even Neves would need someone like Rice eventually. We are not stocked in the CDM position.

Fred is a CM with energetic defensive ability. Mctominay is at his best when a box to box CM player. Like who do we exactly have as a pure CDM apart from Matic? We need both a deep lying playmaker and a ball winning midfielder in my eyes. As a ball winning midfielder I have Rice quite up my interests.

Yeah always felt that this midfield could really do with both a deep lying playmaker and ball winner as well, however considering that the club will want a striker and probably attacking right back next summer I see us buying only one. Wouldn't surprise me if we tried to find someone who could offer a bit of both but not a specialist in either role.

 

[reelworld]

West Ham threads probably do overrate him - but I'm glad they themselves see the difference in how he plays for England vs how he does for West Ham.

It's actually that ability to play in two different ways that has me interested in him - gung ho possibly vs more restricted, passive but protective way.

Yeah, this is my thoughts as well. Rice can play more expansively if needed I think he'll surprise alot of people if he does come here. He's a very good footballer

 

[lex talionis]

Rice is wildly overrated by the on-cue fanatical British media, but he’s enough of an upgrade on McToninay to make his acquisition worth it.

We’re on the cusp of great things, amigos.

 

[RedRonaldo]

We couldn’t afford paying 80m for his service, he doesn’t worth the price anyway. Maybe 40m would worth to consider. We would have to wait until his contract running down in few years time to have realistic hope of buying him for cheap.

 

[Red Company]

Not that I’m complaining incase it works out in our favour but I’m surprised Chelsea aren’t trying to do a swap by trading Zouma for Rice.

I’m assuming Chelsea got quoted an abnormally high price for Rice or they’re just simply not interested this summer considering they’re stacked in the midfield department.

 

[United in sin]

96.6% pass completion over his first two PL games. Good start to the season for him.

This is what I like to see from Rice, a steep improvement in his passing. It's the one area I've been least impressed with him. I like Rice, I just think the amount West Ham would ask for his signature is too prohibitive. I can't see that figure going down next summer but perhaps it will be worth it if he has a massive season and continues to show vast improvement

 

[Mainoldo]

I kept telling you numpties this guy is the real deal. Stop comparing him to McT because they have the same body shape. He’s out his league.

 

[Tarrou]

What can I say? I was around throughout Keane's career and we all used the phrase defensive midfielder back then. Keane was the defensive midfielder, Scholes was the attacking midfielder. If you want to retcon that term based on today's football, cool, but that doesn't change the basis on which he was played at the time.

I remember Fergie talking about it once and how he tried to get Keane to sit and be a true defensive midfielder later in his career but Keano wasn't having it.

 

[mav_9me]

I always thought Rice was a good passer. At the very least I think he is better than McFred and Matic at passing. He is also good at carrying the ball forward.

 

[Tarrou]

Here's a question.

Is Rice really that much of an 'upgrade' on McT. Is he basically the same player?

Put it this way, if McTominay was playing for West Ham, would his price tag be north of £80M?

I don't think they are much alike to be honest

if they were we wouldn't be in such a dire need of a DM

 

[bosnian_red]

Here's a question.

Is Rice really that much of an 'upgrade' on McT. Is he basically the same player?

Put it this way, if McTominay was playing for West Ham, would his price tag be north of £80M?

They are completely different and Rice is a much smarter player defensively and with his positioning, along with being safer on the ball/less careless. Rice is a defensive midfielder. People always love to discount the mental parts of what a defensive midfielder does as some random trait that can be learned easily and overhype someone just if they look fancy on the ball or equate it to just running around and closing down space more often. There's a lot more to it, and it's a thing of you either have it or you don't.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Even with his good start, 90 million is just such a steep price. I don't think he's worth anywhere near that.

 

[Fortitude]

Even with his good start, 90 million is just such a steep price. I don't think he's worth anywhere near that.

It doesn't matter what we think, though; he's West Ham's jewel in the crown and they've set the price so high to ward off clubs or take them to the cleaners should they persist.

It also protects them for the future as any top talent that comes through for them, everyone knows to steer clear of or be prepared to spend serious coin on.

Clubs like West Ham are trying to become permanent fixtures in Europe and take things from there so they don't want to be set back with player losses time and again via plundering.

I bet their fans are delighted with the stance they've taken just as much as support of potential suitors universally agree Rice ain't worth anywhere near that kind of valuation - the interesting thing here though is Rice himself has voiced his upset at essentially being priced out of the market and there'll probably come a time where he's either genuinely worth that kind of money, or, he'll have to have a word or act up to get himself a transfer at a reasonable price.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Here's a question.

Is Rice really that much of an 'upgrade' on McT. Is he basically the same player?

Put it this way, if McTominay was playing for West Ham, would his price tag be north of £80M?

Nope. Would much rather target Haaland, who we will actually need next year. Rice is a luxury signing for us.

 

[Fortitude]

Great explanation.

The difference between Mctominay and Rice is quite simple to see. If Mctominay was Rice then we would have him as our replacement for Matic and we would have seen him partnered up with pogba more. Instead that only happened with Matic and to a smaller degree- Fred.

Indeed. If McTominay could play the role, we wouldn't have such a pressing need to get someone in to do the job. McTominay has little of what it takes to be a class defensive midfielder and it would be an incredible turnaround to see him develop those traits and the mental awareness of duty and positional discipline to do so anytime soon - some CM's pick up qualities for deeper play as their engine fails and they literally cannot run around like they used to, which forces them to use their bodies in a different way and even rethink their own game to keep playing at a time where they're becoming poorer CM's by the season because they're not capable of fulfilling their duties as a 2-way player anymore.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

It doesn't matter what we think, though; he's West Ham's jewel in the crown and they've set the price so high to ward off clubs or take them to the cleaners should they persist.

It also protects them for the future as any top talent that comes through for them, everyone knows to steer clear of or be prepared to spend serious coin on.

Clubs like West Ham are trying to become permanent fixtures in Europe and take things from there so they don't want to be set back with player losses time and again via plundering.

I bet their fans are delighted with the stance they've taken just as much as support of potential suitors universally agree Rice ain't worth anywhere near that kind of valuation - the interesting thing here though is Rice himself has voiced his upset at essentially being priced out of the market and there'll probably come a time where he's either genuinely worth that kind of money, or, he'll have to have a word or act up to get himself a transfer at a reasonable price.

Of course, they are free to value him at what they think he's worth and set a precedent for future valuable assets.

 

[Real Name]

Why don't we offer them Lingard plus cash?

 

[jamesblonde]

I'm not sure what Neville has to do with this.

It would be an absolute travesty if we went 'all out' for such a limited player. It's all well and good sitting infront of the defense In a compact team, playing the obvious pass every time you receive it. At United, he's going to have to do more than that, and so far he has shown absolutely nothing that demonstrates he is capable of it. Can you remember the absolute vitriol Herrera was faced with for 'playing it safe?' The thing is, he was far more capable of playing key passes. Bringing him someone that is essentially a CB playing in midfield would be a massive step backwards.

I agree completely with this. I watched him in the Euros and he was wretched. More backwards passes than Paul Parker in his prime. The ball needs to be progressed through midfield, he has shown no ability to make this happen. He will not help get the ball to Pogba and Bruno, teams will be able to close us down, knowing he will pass backwards, preventing Maguire or Varane from passing out from the back.

 

[Judas]

I agree completely with this. I watched him in the Euros and he was wretched. More backwards passes than Paul Parker in his prime. The ball needs to be progressed through midfield, he has shown no ability to make this happen. He will not help get the ball to Pogba and Bruno, teams will be able to close us down, knowing he will pass backwards, preventing Maguire or Varane from passing out from the back.

I'm sure a little stat loving nerd could disprove this post pretty quickly. The idea he played nothing but back passes is nonsense.

 

[Marwood]

I'm sure a little stat loving nerd could disprove this post pretty quickly. The idea he played nothing but back passes is nonsense.

Maybe not literally always backwards but his passing was really really basic. It couldn't have been much safer.

There's enough doubt to avoid spending massive money on him.

I don't think he's that quick on the turn either.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I'm sure a little stat loving nerd could disprove this post pretty quickly. The idea he played nothing but back passes is nonsense.

Obviously he doesn't play backwards passes all the time but there is truth in his passing range being limited. He plays a very disciplined role for West Ham and tends to recycle possession in a more basic sense. Where he is much stronger is progressing the play through dribbling and 'progressive carries', he's among the top 20% in that regard for his position.

https://fbref.com/en/players/1c7012b8/scout/365_euro/Declan-Rice-Scouting-Report

I think with Rice he still needs to improve for United to sign him but he seems to be improving all the time. The other factors about him are that his injury record has been very good and he's a very upbeat person with leadership skills that would be good for the dressing room. He was captain of West Ham at 20.

 

[blackhawk747]

Honestly, I would rather appreciate a Sancho+Rice summer then a Sancho+Varane Summer. Im not underrate Varane nor overate Rice. In terms of squad needs and manipulation, adding Rice would offer huge upside to squad selection. Image having Rice sitting, we can put vdB as box to box and provide more freedom to bruno/pogba. we can also form a Rice+Pogba pivots when we need more attackers.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Roy Keane was never a purely defensive holding player.

The thing is actual defensive midfielders have NEVER been purely holding players/defensive players. They were called anchor men. Because they held the team together. they balanced the and protected the defensive side whilst smoothing the transition to the attacking side. Thats what the likes of Keane, Vieira even Petit were Carrick too. Fernandinho at his best for City.
But the advent of Makelele arriving in England. An old school cattenaccio sweeper stationed just ahead of the defence and mostly in between the center halves, birthed the obsession with purely defensive holders. Who were focused mainly on the destructive side of the game That is why some one of the quality of Jorginho at chelsea took long to be appreciated. that is why many on the cafe are obsessed with a Rice. A height and possibly technical upgrade on what a Makelele offered. but still the same mainly destructive player which IMO has next to never suited United as a club

 

[jakko]

This is what I like to see from Rice, a steep improvement in his passing. It's the one area I've been least impressed with him. I like Rice, I just think the amount West Ham would ask for his signature is too prohibitive. I can't see that figure going down next summer but perhaps it will be worth it if he has a massive season and continues to show vast improvement

How would the fee not go down next summer? he will only have two years left and hes told West Ham he wont extend the contract.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Roy Keane wasn't immense in his first few seasons at United. He was very good - but he certainly wasn't anywhere near the best in the division. Keane didn't really become great until Ince left. Declan Rice is 22 years old - the same age Keane was when he joined United. So naturally he is nowhere near Keane is his prime, but Declan Rice at the age of 22 is not far behind Roy Keane aged 22.

One thing people tend to purely forget about Keane, attacking was his main strength from the time he arrived. Its when an Ince left then he got to develop his defensive game further and his all round ability came to the fore. Rice's strength lies in defending. Little about him convinces attacking can becomes a strength of his. Yet United do not need to spend marquee money a player in that role who isn't actually strong at attacking from the get go.

 

[United in sin]

How would the fee not go down next summer? he will only have two years left and hes told West Ham he wont extend the contract.

I don't think it will, read my post again

 

[jakko]

I don't think it will, read my post again

I read it and his fee will still go down next summer. West Ham are skint, slim chance they let him go into 1 year of his contract. No one will pay between £80-100M so they will have reduce the fee.

 

[Bebestation]

The thing is actual defensive midfielders have NEVER been purely holding players/defensive players. They were called anchor men. Because they held the team together. they balanced the and protected the defensive side whilst smoothing the transition to the attacking side. Thats what the likes of Keane, Vieira even Petit were Carrick too. Fernandinho at his best for City.
But the advent of Makelele arriving in England. An old school cattenaccio sweeper stationed just ahead of the defence and mostly in between the center halves, birthed the obsession with purely defensive holders. Who were focused mainly on the destructive side of the game That is why some one of the quality of Jorginho at chelsea took long to be appreciated. that is why many on the cafe are obsessed with a Rice. A height and possibly technical upgrade on what a Makelele offered. but still the same mainly destructive player which IMO has next to never suited United as a club

I agree that some of this hype around Rice is possibly about being the next Makelele type player - however, do you not think that there has likewise been a surge or a hype in finding the next Kante type CDM too?

Alot of the names getting put around seems like the second coming of Kante.

 

[United in sin]

I read it and his fee will still go down next summer. West Ham are skint, slim chance they let him go into 1 year of his contract. No one will pay between £80-100M so they will have reduce the fee.

You're right. I thought he just recently signed a long term contract but I'm obviously wrong about that

 

[golden_blunder]

We couldn’t afford paying 80m for his service, he doesn’t worth the price anyway. Maybe 40m would worth to consider. We would have to wait until his contract running down in few years time to have realistic hope of buying him for cheap.

40m for a 22 year old captain of a PL team, and regular in the England side? What planet are you on? 80m is too much for him obviously but 50-60 is probably his range

 

[suheilsworld]

From what I have seen of him, he carries and holds the ball very well. Something Fred and Matic cannot do. So many instances in the past and during the Southampton game, I was thinking why the hell Matic is not passing the ball?! We need someone who does simple things at the right time. We do not need ballers who try and dribble past attackers near our penalty area.

 

[Flytan]

I read it and his fee will still go down next summer. West Ham are skint, slim chance they let him go into 1 year of his contract. No one will pay between £80-100M so they will have reduce the fee.

I think the club has an option to extend it a year, but yeah will be a bit cheaper

 

[Mickeza]

40m for a 22 year old captain of a PL team, and regular in the England side? What planet are you on? 80m is too much for him obviously but 50-60 is probably his range

If they’d accept 50m plus Jesse we’d do it this summer I think provided we could sell Matic. Will they accept it? I think we’ll find out as I’m convinced the only reason Lingard is still here is because there’s brinksmanship going on. We’re trying to link the two deals.

 

[Solius]

Offer them Lingard plus £40-50m and just structure the payments. Surely despite our lack of budget we could pull that from somewhere. Although I find it hard to believe the club won't have already thought of this. There's often something we don't know about that prevents things from happening.

West Ham know he won't sign a new deal so this summer is the best offer they'll get for him. Plus they'd get a new cult hero back in exchange.

 

[golden_blunder]

Offer them Lingard plus £40-50m and just structure the payments. Surely despite our lack of budget we could pull that from somewhere. Although I find it hard to believe the club won't have already thought of this. There's often something we don't know about that prevents things from happening.

West Ham know he won't sign a new deal so this summer is the best offer they'll get for him. Plus they'd get a new cult hero back in exchange.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that they don’t want him to leave this season. They’re off to a flyer now too so probably don’t want to rock the boat which surely selling their captain would be

 

[Solius]

The only thing that makes sense to me is that they don’t want him to leave this season. They’re off to a flyer now too so probably don’t want to rock the boat which surely selling their captain would be

On the other hand it could be the perfect time. Sell when the squad is doing well or wait until you're playing much worse and it might damage morale further.

 

[Bilbo]

We'd be wise to assess the effect that adding Varane will have on our overall play before blowing our full load on a midfielder. Saul on loan without a commitment would make sense. Camavinga would make sense. Rice at a monster fee would not IMO. Next summer perhaps.

 

[Mentality Monsters]

Offer them Lingard plus £40-50m and just structure the payments. Surely despite our lack of budget we could pull that from somewhere. Although I find it hard to believe the club won't have already thought of this. There's often something we don't know about that prevents things from happening.

West Ham know he won't sign a new deal so this summer is the best offer they'll get for him. Plus they'd get a new cult hero back in exchange.

All over this.

From what I remember, Leicester and Sporting required all of the money for Maguire and Bruno upfront. And the signing of Sancho this season is in installments of £15 million. Varane at £34 million is also not massive, it's a price a lot of clubs with a lot less financial clout than ourselves throw around regularly. I find it really hard to believe we can't scrape together the funds to sign a midfielder, more likely is the Glazers worrying about it affecting their bottom line and precious dividends.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Offer them Lingard plus £40-50m and just structure the payments. Surely despite our lack of budget we could pull that from somewhere. Although I find it hard to believe the club won't have already thought of this. There's often something we don't know about that prevents things from happening.

West Ham know he won't sign a new deal so this summer is the best offer they'll get for him. Plus they'd get a new cult hero back in exchange.

Well they put a 100m price tag on him so it's more like 80m + lingard. Which is why these deals seldom work as lingard doesn't suddenly become a 40m asset in a swap. AndIt looks like West Ham want to keep him for another year.