Declan Rice

[amolbhatia50k]

Even if we buy prime Makelele we should not put Pogba in a midfield 2. Let alone Declan Rice. People realise we shouldnt put Bruno in a midfield 2 with Rice/Ndidi because he is an attacking player, and dont realise its the same with Pogba. Odd.

McT/Fred--Rice

If we buy Rice this would be our midfield. Now we have to decide if thats worth 80-100M.

Totally agree. But people keep dreaming about Pogba plus one.

 

[Andrew7582]

Rice + McTominay duo or Rice + Fred duo would be too basic technically. We would still have the same issues with not passing and moving through midfield well enough and crumbling when pressed in our half. It would be the same situation as with Maguire, that we end up having to buy a second player to do the things that Rice can't do. It would make more sense to buy a more suitable partner for Mctominay, someone press resistant and with a great range of passing is what we need.

 

[VinzentFTW]

Before the transfer window opened i wanted a
DM over anything. Its the spot in the team we are weakest by far with a relegation team player in Fred, and past it Matic. The second weakest spot was the CB which we upgraded with a class player.

IMHO we should have bought this player, Ndidi or Bissouma over Sancho. Sancho is a nice addition, but the RW was never as weak as the midfield cause we either played Greenwood (class) or James (decent in some spesific games) there. We also bought both Amad and Pellistri for this spot last summer as future options, and not for cheap. Sancho should have been the cherry on the cake, but the cake is not baked yet. Its easier to soften the fans with this type of addition instead of a Rice as well and the anti Glazer movement pretty much went underground as soon as Sancho was secured.

It doesnt look like we are gonna buy anything in the last few days of the transfer window, which pretty much ruin our chances for major silverware one more season.

 

[Jaxa]

I mean we conceded more last season than Liverpool who had no defenders and had to sign another world class CB in addition to an expensive RB but he is doing his thing.

I mean is that the basis of your whole argument ? We conceded 3 more goals than Liverpool so therefor Maguire = Sh*t ? Also let's be honest Lindelof was the one who stood out like a sore thumb last season for the majority,

Liverpool's title winning season when they had the best defence the world had ever seen we conceded again only 3 more goals than them in the league ? And that's with the almighty Van Dijk , TAA & Robertson ?

 

[Adnan]

Thanks, appreciate your effort in posting those stats.

It's quite obvious we are just fans or having played football at just amateur level we are very likely to miss a lot of the nuances needed to evaluate a player.

Klopp and Guardiola press high so the likes of Fabinho and Rodri play much higher up the pitch compared to someone like Rice who plays in a team that plays in either a deep block or midblock. Which means a midfielder in such a set up will have more scope to play the higher percentage distance passes due to the distance between themselves and the opposition goal.

Rodri also plays under a coach who favours a strong positional game so recycling the ball from zone to zone is far more important in the quest to open space for the free man. And Fabinho in Klopp's high line is camped in the opposition half with superb attacking fullbacks and wide forwards in close proximity, so passing short is the sensible thing to do even if Fabinho has it in his locker to pass long.

We also saw in the Euros how Marco Verratti showed our midfield what a high calibre technician can do. And it's that profile of player this team is crying out for IMO.

 

[andersj]

Klopp and Guardiola press high so the likes of Fabinho and Rodri play much higher up the pitch compared to someone like Rice who plays in a team that plays in either a deep block or midblock.

That is right and a valid point. That being said, while Rodri was more progressive at AM and Villarreal than at Man City, he did not move the ball any longer on average than Rice at West Ham. In fact, he moved it shorter than at City and shorter than Rice. Rice also completes more passes/cross into the penalty box than Rodri.

Rice is obviously not in the mould of someone like Verratti, but then again, neither is Rodri or Fabinho.

 

[Orc]

Assuming West Ham keep hold of him this week (no chance they sell him this late with no hope of replacing their best player, surely?) I 100% expect him to be a Chelsea player at this time next summer. Will be our Lukaku-like marquee signing.

 

[KennyBurner]

This thread popping up again? The man played against 10 men ffs.

 

[Fortitude]

Certainly has its pluses, but does he offer anything creatively or moving the play any quicker in midfield than what we were doing against Southampton, for instance? Whilst having an actual no.6 would improve us defensively a lot with some positional assurance, I worry that the lack of ability on the ball is like a one step forward two step back move.

I haven't seen anything in his game that makes me think he himself can turn games, but a question with a DM like him is: can he facilitate others by recycling the ball to them or closing off loose ends efficiently enough to keep us high up the pitch and prevent the game from opening back up? There's more than one way for a DM to affect a game on the offensive end - we usually speak of the individual with magic in his own boots, but it's not really as simple as that.

Perhaps, interesting in its own right, is that Rice is more likely to show his worth in bigger games than smaller ones where everyone has to primarily think of their own job brief and individual battles rather than the collective effort it takes to batter obstinate teams. Rice will enable his team to keep its midfield shape more often than not, and even when out of position, he's a terrier about getting back - where others tend to flap in that moment and be unsure of what the best position is for them to get to on rapid counters. We discombobulate more often than we should on rapid turnovers and that's where, for me, Rice's attributes really come to the fore.

He's not my preferred choice, but he definitely has pros to his game that I don't think can just be dismissed because he can't pass a ball like an elite midfielder.

 

[Bebestation]

The problem here is, although all those players might be call defensive midfielders, the way in which they play/played the game was so polaric, you could form complementary pairings from a number of combinations listed.

Gattusso was a very basic runner and presser of the opposition. His job could not have been simpler: run, harrass, get the ball, immediately give it to far superior ball users, but most importantly, get it to another player on his team to do something with. Gattuso had zero expectation placed upon him to do anything creative or proactive with the ball.

Kante is a halfway house between Gattuso and the players in italics, as they are all able to move with the ball, make space to receive it back and be progressive.

The bolded, however, are instrumental in progressive passes between the lines to another team mate and are key components in massive retention states during a game. You can go as far as to state: you shut those players down and their sides lose a lot of what makes them so dangerous. Javi Martinez came up as a really impressive user of the ball and little by little, he relinquished this at Bayern, but certainly in Spain, he was a player we could do with a carbon copy of right now.

We definitely shouldn't be looking at a Gattuso type, and if we're lucky, we manage to get a player from the bolded archetype as they control games with effortlessly subtle and consistently damaging passes.

I can see that and the difference in some of their technique - but my biggest problem with United and their midfield is two things:

1) The use of the 4231 over a 433 - do we really need two CDM when we have such a potentially capable defensive back 4 in AWB, Varane, Maguire and Shaw? Having 2 CDM as a tactical set up of our team is stopping us having an extra attacking player somewhere up the pitch. Surely that's important to break a low block team just as much as a DLP may be? All these CDM of top clubs that are capable of holding two CM in front of them are hardly ever just the pure deep lying playmaker all the time are they?

2) I say this because I feel that United are at a time when we need two different types of CDM and not just one. This is why some may see the importance of Rice - whilst someone else maybe craving Camavinga or Neves. If we did get Neves, could you see him holding a Pogba and Bruno partnership by himself the way someone like Matic was able to do if for a short while? I say this because even though alot of us want a deep lying playmaker within the squad - I believe that even Neves would need someone like Rice eventually. We are not stocked in the CDM position.

Fred is a CM with energetic defensive ability. Mctominay is at his best when a box to box CM player. Like who do we exactly have as a pure CDM apart from Matic? We need both a deep lying playmaker and a ball winning midfielder in my eyes. As a ball winning midfielder I have Rice quite up my interests.

 

[Bestietom]

Don't know the financial side of things in our club, but listening to some that do, I was quiet surprised to hear that the money spent on Sancho was there from last years budget.
Along with receiving monies owed from Lukaku sale, we surely should be able to add more players to our squad, or are we just going to let others leave us behind again.
I put up my hands up if I am wrong, but didn't Glazers promise to back Ole in transfer market this summer.
Is it down to Murtagh and Fletcher now or does Woodward still work behind the scenes on transfers.
We need a midfield playmaker general now, and maybe a replacement for Pogba if he doesn't sign a new contract.
With just 1 week to go to deadline, I just hope we have something already lined up, or some more of our top players will refuse to sign new contracts.
I was delighted with the 2 signings we made so quickly but do we not need at least 2 more before deadline if we are to challenge for honours this season.
Before anyone jump on me. It's a question not a statement.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

People don't watch him play at all and come here to spout absolute dross about how he is overrated and how he is not what we need, we have Fred or absolute shit like that. He would instantly improve our core and it will be Rice + 1 for the 2 spots. The fee will obviously more than he is worth but stop downplaying his actual ability. The guy is good enough to start for us.

I agree. I wasn't his biggest fan at first but he won me over. Every time I've watched over the last 18 months I've come away impressed. Not worth the prices being quoted but he's clearly a good player and would improve our team.

 

[largelyworried]

Thats not true. Scholes was basically a 10 for most of Keanes career and Roy had Butt as a midfield partner for a long time. Scholes didn’t become a midfielder until late into Roys career. Roy was box to box and it’s silly to argue otherwise

The Butt partnership ended in 97. When Keane came back from his ligaments Scholes moved into midfield, where they both stayed in various forms til Keano left. Would be a stretch to call that early part most of his career.

Anyway, that's beside the point. The poster said that SAF didn't play with a DM. When Ince and Keano played together, Ince was the DM. When Butt and Keane played together, Butt was the DM. Later, as Keane took over defensive midfield duties, if he was missing, SAF would play Butt alongside Scholes, or even pull in Ronny Johnson. We almost always had someone in the team whose role was a defensive one in midfield. The fact that Keano was almost unique in having the engine and talent to fulfill that defensive role while also launching attacks doesn't mean that defensive role wasn't essential so SAF.

 

[DWelbz19]

I haven't seen anything in his game that makes me think he himself can turn games, but a question with a DM like him is: can he facilitate others by recycling the ball to them or closing off loose ends efficiently enough to keep us high up the pitch and prevent the game from opening back up? There's more than one way for a DM to affect a game on the offensive end - we usually speak of the individual with magic in his own boots, but it's not really as simple as that.

Perhaps, interesting in its own right, is that Rice is more likely to show his worth in bigger games than smaller ones where everyone has to primarily think of their own job brief and individual battles rather than the collective effort it takes to batter obstinate teams. Rice will enable his team to keep its midfield shape more often than not, and even when out of position, he's a terrier about getting back - where others tend to flap in that moment and be unsure of what the best position is for them to get to on rapid counters. We discombobulate more often than we should on rapid turnovers and that's where, for me, Rice's attributes really come to the fore.

He's not my preferred choice, but he definitely has pros to his game that I don't think can just be dismissed because he can't pass a ball like an elite midfielder.

Fair points — and nothing I necessarily disagree with, really. For me he would be somewhere down the list, but still ultimately on that list. Just not for the insane fees West Ham are pricing him at.

 

[Devil1]

Would love to see Rice and Kessie together in our midfield.

 

[Adnan]

That is right and a valid point. That being said, while Rodri was more progressive at AM and Villarreal than at Man City, he did not move the ball any longer on average than Rice at West Ham. In fact, he moved it shorter than at City and shorter than Rice. Rice also completes more passes/cross into the penalty box than Rodri.

Rice is obviously not in the mould of someone like Verratti, but then again, neither is Rodri or Fabinho.

Rodri at Atleti and Villareal also played in teams who played a strong defensive game especially at Atleti. So I'm not disageeing with you about his statistics when it comes to pass distance at those clubs. But IMO the way he played in Spain was different to how he's been used at City. In Spain his spacial awareness and manipulation of space to open space from deeper areas was impressive in confined spaces. So it wasn't a surprise City bought him. And completing crosses into the box wasn't something many Spanish clubs who played a patient possession game really emphasised on, which is very different to how the likes of West Ham play.

I agree with your second point and I've said on many occassions that we need a technician in the mould of a Scholes or Modric in this team if we we're to sign one midfielder. Fabinho for me definitely isn't that player and I would hope the club is seriously looking at addressing that soon. But I also believe we need to sign a more defensive minded player but I would hope we don't prioritize one over a playmaker.

Declan Rice is limited IMO but I admit he doesn't need to have a expansive game to play the holding role if required to do so. But I do like that he keeps possession at a good level and keeps it simple. The player next to him should be tasked with playing the more expansive game so I'm fine in that regard. But what I find strange is the amount of people who are happy for us to spend a crazy amount on him when it could be argued we could sign someone of a similar level for considerably less.

 

[youngrell]

Another thing those stats don't tell us is whether the passes made are the correct ones or whether they have missed a better pass, along with the speed, accuracy and angle of the pass for the receiver. All things which I have criticised Rice for in the past.

I agree with @Adnan assessment of the profile we need. We need someone to play penetrative passes through the lines to the likes of Pogba and Bruno and the forwards, rather than someone who just recycles possession side to side. Maguire and Lindelof do that plenty already.

 

[cyberman]

The Butt partnership ended in 97. When Keane came back from his ligaments Scholes moved into midfield, where they both stayed in various forms til Keano left. Would be a stretch to call that early part most of his career.

Anyway, that's beside the point. The poster said that SAF didn't play with a DM. When Ince and Keano played together, Ince was the DM. When Butt and Keane played together, Butt was the DM. Later, as Keane took over defensive midfield duties, if he was missing, SAF would play Butt alongside Scholes, or even pull in Ronny Johnson. We almost always had someone in the team whose role was a defensive one in midfield. The fact that Keano was almost unique in having the engine and talent to fulfill that defensive role while also launching attacks doesn't mean that defensive role wasn't essential so SAF.

Here’s Butts league appearances over his last few years at Utd
21 (0) 1
2002/2003

Man Utd
18 (0) 0
2001/2002

Man Utd
25 (0) 1
2000/2001

Man Utd
28 (0) 3
1999/2000

Man Utd
32 (0)

It was nowhere near over! All starts and not 1 sub.

Back then it was all action midfielders. Maybe it was to the detriment of the English game but there were no real DMs until Makelele popped up and we started having 3 in the middle. Even then it wasn’t a DM but deep laying playmaker types that anchored the midfield which is why SAF signed Carrick as his direct replacement.
Keane was as much of a DM as Scott is.

 

[largelyworried]

Here’s Butts league appearances over his last few years at Utd
21 (0) 1
2002/2003

Man Utd
18 (0) 0
2001/2002

Man Utd
25 (0) 1
2000/2001

Man Utd
28 (0) 3
1999/2000

Man Utd
32 (0)

It was nowhere near over! All starts and not 1 sub.

Back then it was all action midfielders. Maybe it was to the detriment of the English game but there were no real DMs until Makelele popped up and we started having 3 in the middle. Even then it wasn’t a DM but deep laying playmaker types that anchored the midfield which is why SAF signed Carrick as his direct replacement.
Keane was as much of a DM as Scott is.

Wikipedia has those stats totally different. It has 21 starts and 11 subs appearances for the 99/00 season? I'd be very surprised if he didn't come on as sub even once in 5 seasons. Anyway that's not the point I was making. Given that Butt was most certainly a defensive player, it doesn't change the point I was making.

 

[golden_blunder]

This lad is only going to get better and better. It can either be at United or a rival

 

[Adnan]

I think he'll end up Chelsea. According to the Chelsea correspondents, they've tried to sign him this summer but the price has been prohibitive. But Chelsea are expected to try again at a later date with the player favouring a move to Chelsea above all other clubs.

 

[Drainy]

I think he'll end up Chelsea. According to the Chelsea correspondents, they've tried to sign him this summer but the price has been prohibitive. But Chelsea are expected to try again at a later date with the player favouring a move to Chelsea above all other clubs.

and he'll be great there and people will complain we missed out

 

[golden_blunder]

Hopefully agent Jesse has been doing his thing

keane said it himself, Rice is the closest thing to Keane in the modern game. And he will get better

 

[Highfather_24]

Our issue in midfield is that we lack progressive passers. A player who can manipulate the ball, who can control games, and doesnt lose it under immense pressure.

Declan Rice is not that player. He is a sitter, who is there to win the ball and shield the back 4. That's not what we need.

 

[Drainy]

Our issue in midfield is that we lack progressive passers. A player who can manipulate the ball, who can control games, and doesnt lose it under immense pressure.

Declan Rice is not that player. He is a sitter, who is there to win the ball and shield the back 4. That's not what we need.

He's also a tidy player in possession and a powerful carrier of the ball. Certainly not a progressive passer though.

 

[Adnan]

and he'll be great there and people will complain we missed out

They will only complain if we then go on to miss out on the likes of Tchouameni. They will also complain when we spend a ridiculous amount on Rice only to see teams like Leicester sign a comparable player for a fraction of the price.

We're not talking about Zinedine Zidane here.

 

[golden_blunder]

They will only complain if we then go on to miss out on the likes of Tchouameni. They will also complain when we spend a ridiculous amount on Rice only to see teams like Leicester sign a comparable player for a fraction of the price.

We're not talking about Zinedine Zidane here.

No we are talking about a player who has been likened to Keane, not hard to see why. But even the real Keane needed scholes beside him.
And I think our problem will depend on how we want to setup

 

[Adnan]

No we are talking about a player who has been likened to Keane, not hard to see why. But even the real Keane needed scholes beside him.
And I think our problem will depend on how we want to setup

He's nothing like Keane who was a box to box midfielder. And if Keane did say Rice was the player most comparable to him, then I have to question his judgment and will point to his career as a manager as to why we shouldn't take him seriously. Fergie once said Phil Jones was the second coming of Duncan Edwards.

 

[youngrell]

Hopefully agent Jesse has been doing his thing

keane said it himself, Rice is the closest thing to Keane in the modern game. And he will get better

 

[golden_blunder]

I never bought into the Caf hype around poor old Morgan

 

[golden_blunder]

He's nothing like Keane who was a box to box midfielder. And if Keane did say Rice was the player most comparable to him, then I have to question his judgment and will point to his career as a manager as to why we shouldn't take him seriously. Fergie once said Phil Jones was the second coming of Duncan Edwards.

Actually if you watch the way rice moves around the pitch, you can see he’d be a perfect box to box. People say he can’t pass but he’s rarely giving the ball away, has a decent long pass like Keane did and is an excellent ball carrier like a young Keane.
again it depends on what the coaching staff are looking for; we’re all giving our opinions which count for feck all

 

[AussieDevil]

Surely there has to be a player that can do what Rice can, but for 1/3 of the price. I've never been that impressed with Rice, if he wasn't english then he'd be quoted at 30 million at most.

 

[Drainy]

They will only complain if we then go on to miss out on the likes of Tchouameni. They will also complain when we spend a ridiculous amount on Rice only to see teams like Leicester sign a comparable player for a fraction of the price.

We're not talking about Zinedine Zidane here.

Not seen enough of Tchouameni to comment.

Yeah we're talking about defensive midfield which is certainly unglamorous, but important. Rice at 22 consistently wins most battles in midfield which for United is where most of our troubles are because we lack a platform to attack from in dangerous areas.

The question mark is if he can develop his progressive passing enough to be the 'extra man' in midfield when teams drop off him. Fred is so inconsistent at this, as well as being slack in possession when pressed so needs upgrading.

He can basically perform the role either Fred (aggressive press and tick over passing) or McTominay (Stability / keep the shape and occasional progressive carry ) has and has shown it at 22 in the league.

There may be a bargain out there, and hopefully we can find it, but you pay less for more risk.

 

[Bebestation]

Our issue in midfield is that we lack progressive passers. A player who can manipulate the ball, who can control games, and doesnt lose it under immense pressure.

Declan Rice is not that player. He is a sitter, who is there to win the ball and shield the back 4. That's not what we need.

For me, if we get this progressive passer like Neves - we will have to play him next to a Fred or Mctominay.

This leaves us with only Bruno, and 3 forwards as our main attack.

For me the opposite to this is if we get a sitter than can defensively protect the area in front of the defence by himself. Declan Rice by himself in front of AWB, Varane, Maguire, Shaw is the most defensively capable 5 you are going to get.

This in my mind allows us to have an extra attacker further up the pitch creating stuff for us with an element of freedom to not need to join in the defensive work.

Why is the deeper ball playing from a CDM position more useful and creative in comparison to having another extra creative attacker as a CAM for example?

​

 

[Adnan]

Not seen enough of Tchouameni to comment.

Yeah we're talking about defensive midfield which is certainly unglamorous, but important. Rice at 22 consistently wins most battles in midfield which for United is where most of our troubles are because we lack a platform to attack from in dangerous areas.

The question mark is if he can develop his progressive passing enough to be the 'extra man' in midfield when teams drop off him. Fred is so inconsistent at this, as well as being slack in possession when pressed so needs upgrading.

He can basically perform the role either Fred (aggressive press and tick over passing) or McTominay (Stability / keep the shape and occasional progressive carry ) has and has shown it at 22 in the league.

There may be a bargain out there, and hopefully we can find it, but you pay less for more risk.

That's fair enough and a fairly balanced post.

 

[Joeace2020]

YouTube compilations can make Andreas Pereira look like Prime Zidane.

 

[NewYorkRed]

Incredibly limited player. Not a huge upgrade on McSauce. I’d rather we get someone else- not sure who though as I’ve never seen that camavinga kid play.

 

[Lentwood]

West Ham must've won a game.

They have won plenty in the last 12 months, one of the best teams in the league over that period and Rice has been a massive part of that.

Honestly, compare this lad at 21/22 to Carrick or Henderson (who I both rate very highly)...he is streets ahead. Forget Gary Neville ranting about Utd buying Kane as "the best of British", that ship has sailed.

Should be all out for Rice and Haaland next Sunmer. Get both and we'll transform the team overnight

 

[Adnan]

Actually if you watch the way rice moves around the pitch, you can see he’d be a perfect box to box. People say he can’t pass but he’s rarely giving the ball away, has a decent long pass like Keane did and is an excellent ball carrier like a young Keane.
again it depends on what the coaching staff are looking for; we’re all giving our opinions which count for feck all

Tbh with you GB, Keane was far superior to Rice in miltiple attacking and defensive zones and I just can't see the comparison.

I also remember listening to a interview from Mark Nobel last year who said they were working to improve Rice's game going forward which doesn't come naturally to him. Which again is understandable when he started his career as a CB.

And having said all that, I do believe Rice could help us become a more functional team, if he had a more technical player next to him. But for the price West Ham will want, I think we should look elsewhere because the EPL tax will empty our transfer kitty pretty quickly IMO. But if we do sign him then I guess I'll forget I ever wrote these posts.

 

[Bebestation]

YouTube compilations can make Andreas Pereira look like Prime Zidane.

To be fair this is the same with Camavinga and Co- players who have officially had an average to poor season finishing 6th in the French League.

Rice had a season with a random team that qualified for the Europe league in the PL and the euro finals. Not bad to be fair.