Declan Rice

[OrcaFat]

Is this still a thing? Not many of Pep or Klopp's signings were prem proven yet they have been the dominant teams in recent years. This is an old skool out of touch mentality. As Neville said, when you look at the world 11, most of the players are not in England (prem proven) so tis a nonsense way to be scouting and valuing nowadays.

Rice isn't the only player who plays with passion and aggression and is a team player. These are the most basic and common of attributes to find in a midfielder

Plenty of players look decent in their Mickey Mouse leagues and end up being shit here. But, true enough, the real quality players will be fine. Trouble is, you can’t always tell.

You are right about passion and aggression being common. The art is to channel those properly, best example is Roy Keane. Passion, aggression and leadership were probably his defining qualities but he used them to drive his own and his team’s performance to peak levels.

Before anyone jumps on this, okay Rice isn’t in Keane’s class yet but I don’t think he’s a mile off where Keane was at 22. The point is that Rice has the personality to reach those levels.

The more I think about this, the more I’m thinking we’re going to break the bank and get him. I still think £90m is steep but if we get a decent chunk for Lingard, anything’s possible. I suppose that would annoy the people who don’t rate him.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Plenty of players look decent in their Mickey Mouse leagues and end up being shit here. But, true enough, the real quality players will be fine. Trouble is, you can’t always tell.

You are right about passion and aggression being common. The art is to channel those properly, best example is Roy Keane. Passion, aggression and leadership were probably his defining qualities but he used them to drive his own and his team’s performance to peak levels.

Before anyone jumps on this, okay Rice isn’t in Keane’s class yet but I don’t think he’s a mile off where Keane was at 22. The point is that Rice has the personality to reach those levels.

The more I think about this, the more I’m thinking we’re going to break the bank and get him. I still think £90m is steep but if we get a decent chunk for Lingard, anything’s possible. I suppose that would annoy the people who don’t rate him.

Keane wasn’t in Keane’s class until Robson told him that scoring was fine but he needed to do more on the defensive part of his game and be more box to box.
Point is, players can develop into better players with the right attitude.

Does Rice have that? No idea if he has the technique but the attitude to work is there alright

 

[KennyBurner]

I just want us to forget this overrated/overpriced player. This is our chance again to get our DM right and he doesnt have the passing technique for the role. We need a carrick/thiago motta type of player. Even a younger matic will do.

 

[Bebestation]

Salah was not prem proven as he was labelled a flop here. I'm talking about who the managers themselves signed for their teams. Aguero and Silva were not prem proven when they came but turned out excellent. De Bruyne became prem proven after being bought from abroad. Pep buys around 1 player from a EPL club per season.

Every player that plays for the team in the prem is prem proven but I am saying you don't have to buy from other prem teams in the prem to end up with a team of prem proven players.

That’s fair but he still has experience because he could have been mis-management by mourinho which has been the case for a lot of h is players.

Players benefit from second chances because they do have an intelligence of how to play football in my opinion.

Just because Bruno Fernandes “flopped” in serie A one day doesn’t mean he can’t dominate it in a different season, and his experience in that league helps.

I always felt like this for a player like Memphis too - he flopped with LVG and Jose but would be better if he came now and played with Ole - not saying I want him here though.

 

[SoCross]

Wonder if Brexit has affected our transfer plans too.

As for Rice, I’d welcome his type of player (with a bit more ability to pass through the lines) but 90m...But 30-40mn + Lingard is a reasonable transfer.

 

[Stacks]

That’s fair but he still has experience because he could have been mis-management by mourinho which has been the case for a lot of h is players.

Players benefit from second chances because they do have an intelligence of how to play football in my opinion.

Just because Bruno Fernandes “flopped” in serie A one day doesn’t mean he can’t dominate it in a different season, and his experience in that league helps.

I always felt like this for a player like Memphis too - he flopped with LVG and Jose but would be better if he came now and played with Ole - not saying I want him here though.

Very true

 

[Stacks]

Plenty of players look decent in their Mickey Mouse leagues and end up being shit here. But, true enough, the real quality players will be fine. Trouble is, you can’t always tell.

You are right about passion and aggression being common. The art is to channel those properly, best example is Roy Keane. Passion, aggression and leadership were probably his defining qualities but he used them to drive his own and his team’s performance to peak levels.

Before anyone jumps on this, okay Rice isn’t in Keane’s class yet but I don’t think he’s a mile off where Keane was at 22. The point is that Rice has the personality to reach those levels.

The more I think about this, the more I’m thinking we’re going to break the bank and get him. I still think £90m is steep but if we get a decent chunk for Lingard, anything’s possible. I suppose that would annoy the people who don’t rate him.

Keane used to play RM so was technically speaking on a different level. It should come as no surprise that later on in his career Keane was the preferred outlet for our defence and starting our passing game. He was always a technical player. Rice would become the most expensive CM ever. Think about it. Even if scholes or Keane played today they probably wouldn't go for as much as that since its only United spend that amount on a CM. Obviously it's not my money but I believe we can get two Rice's for that. If they are gonna bankroll our summer and spend crazy amounts then it may not matter but trouble is these exorbitant fees do often affect your overall spending power and of course future negotiations with clubs as they can see they can take you to the cleaners.

 

[OrcaFat]

Keane used to play RM so was technically speaking on a different level. It should come as no surprise that later on in his career Keane was the preferred outlet for our defence and starting our passing game. He was always a technical player. Rice would become the most expensive CM ever. Think about it. Even if scholes or Keane played today they probably wouldn't go for as much as that since its only United spend that amount on a CM. Obviously it's not my money but I believe we can get two Rice's for that. If they are gonna bankroll our summer and spend crazy amounts then it may not matter but trouble is these exorbitant fees do often affect your overall spending power and of course future negotiations with clubs as they can see they can take you to the cleaners.

I think there’s an obvious point here - you don’t rate him as much as I do.

I agree we pretty much always pay more than anyone else would but it’s been that way a long time.

Worse than overpaying is failing to make signings which strengthen the team, which also has happened a little too often.

Regarding Keane, I wouldn’t call him a technical player and at 22 he was not noticeably more technical than Rice. He played in a variety of positions but not because he had great technique. I don’t remember him playing RM (maybe he did occasionally) but he was used at RB a bit, mostly because we had Robson and Ince when he came here. He was a British record transfer fee for any position, not just midfield, and probably would go for a record fee now.

Scholes is an interesting one. He was a bit of a later bloomer and he changed so much across his career. But still, let’s say the 28 year old incarnation would have been worth a tidy sum. Not quite so much at 22.

 

[Lappen]

Sell Fred and buy Kessie. Options would improve

The few games I seen with Kessie he really impressed me. Would love him in United.

 

[lysglimt]

I would say a realistic limit for me is £50 million + Lingard. That would be acceptable for me. I would even be willing to throw in Williams if West Ham want him. So £35 million + Lingard and Williams - I think that could be tempting for Hammers

 

[BallonDor99]

Kessie is very good at Milan, but a different player than Fred...Rice offers more presence at holding midfield so would be a good priority

 

[OrcaFat]

I would say a realistic limit for me is £50 million + Lingard. That would be acceptable for me. I would even be willing to throw in Williams if West Ham want him. So £35 million + Lingard and Williams - I think that could be tempting for Hammers

Not unrealistic, I don’t think. Maybe a shade more cash but ballpark looks right.

 

[Okey]

I believe we can get two Rice's for that.

I believe this too. Our network of scouts should do their job. If Rice is anything up to 70m, then yes, find 2 capable midfielders for that sum and West Ham can go do one.

 

[OrcaFat]

I believe this too. Our network of scouts should do their job. If Rice is anything up to 70m, then yes, find 2 capable midfielders for that sum and West Ham can go do one.

I really doubt we can buy two midfielders who would get into our team for £35m each.

Fine if you don’t rate Rice but let’s not kid ourselves about the cost of a top class midfielder (which is what we need).

 

[Dazzmondo]

I really doubt we can buy two midfielders who would get into our team for £35m each.

Fine if you don’t rate Rice but let’s not kid ourselves about the cost of a top class midfielder (which is what we need).

You probably could by targeting the French league tbh. I don't see many players leaving Ligue 1 for more than £35m. Even Soumaré who was a major part of a likely Ligue 1 winning team is going for what seems to be £25m.

 

[Okey]

You probably could by targeting the French league tbh. I don't see many players leaving Ligue 1 for more than £35m. Even Soumaré who was a major part of a likely Ligue 1 winning team is going for what seems to be £25m.

My point exactly. It's debatable that there's much difference between Rice and Soumare. Definitely not that gap in value. One just happens to be in an overpriced league.

 

[Okey]

Our central midfield is McFred. For all their admirable hardwork, getting into our team ahead of them can't possibly require world class talent. McFred are quite average.

 

[Judas]

Our central midfield is McFred. For all their admirable hardwork, getting into our team ahead of them can't possibly require world class talent. McFred are quite average.

I think this is a key point. Its not a big step forward to improve on those two. Doesn't mean I want us to get any old bugger in. But it shouldn't be hard for our scouting department to better what we have.

 

[andersj]

Even Soumaré who was a major part of a likely Ligue 1 winning team is going for what seems to be £25m.

Played 1800 minutes. Was not a regular. You can obviously get a few bargains and great prospects from France like Bernardo Silva, Fofanw and Fabinho.

But there is also cases like Pepe, Ndombele, Lemar, Martial, B. Mendy, Malcolm, Bathsuayi, Bakayoko, Kondogbia etc who is good players, but probably failed to live up to the hype (and in most cases, price).

 

[Dazzmondo]

Played 1800 minutes. Was not a regular. You can obviously get a few bargains and great prospects from France like Bernardo Silva, Fofanw and Fabinho.

But there is also cases like Pepe, Ndombele, Lemar, Martial, B. Mendy, Malcolm, Bathsuayi, Bakayoko, Kondogbia etc who is good players, but probably failed to live up to the hype (and in most cases, price).

Yes he was a regular and clearly 1st choice alongside Andre. He played more mins than any of Lille's other midfielders. Why even bother posting that when you clearly don't know what you're talking about?

Every player is a risk from any league but I'd argue France is producing more top young talent than any other country in Europe right now, so if you wanted to go for youth from any country in the world, it should probably be France. When you also consider it's a league that is improving all the time and you can also get players for well below their true value, it's a no brainer to target Ligue 1. People still view Ligue 1 as a "farmer's league" and it's just dumb at this stage frankly. PSG would absolutely wipe the floor with nearly every team in the Premier League and they're currently a point behind Lille, 2 points ahead of Monaco and 3 points ahead of Lyon. There is a chance both Lille and Monaco could finish ahead of them this season, so people should really start reevaluating this league because atm we're just allowing great talent to go to teams like Leicester (who is always hailed as the shining example of good transfer strategy) because we are only interested in looking at big name players (a strategy that has produced far more flops than successes in recent years).

 

[OrcaFat]

You probably could by targeting the French league tbh. I don't see many players leaving Ligue 1 for more than £35m. Even Soumaré who was a major part of a likely Ligue 1 winning team is going for what seems to be £25m.

It’s not impossible, of course. But do you think our scouts are unaware of Soumare or, while we’re at it, any single player you could name?

When we don’t sign a guy, it is not our scouts not doing their job, it is a judgement call by the scouts and the rest of the recruiting team, add to that the difficulty of actually getting deals done. So when we say: why don’t we just sign Mr X? there are many, usually very good reasons why not.

I would also add that getting players better than Fred or even McT is neither easy nor cheap. They’ve done a decent job in a side that finished second. We need to improve on them but it will cost us.

 

[RedRonaldo]

No thanks. 90m is considered very high even in pre-COVID market for any world class DM. 40-50m is the most I'd pay for him in this market.
If they want Lingard, maybe 15m + Lingard.

We are talking about a market where most elite clubs would struggle to pay 120m for Mbappe or Haaland for feck sake.

 

[Dazzmondo]

It’s not impossible, of course. But do you think our scouts are unaware of Soumare or, while we’re at it, any single player you could name?

When we don’t sign a guy, it is not our scouts not doing their job, it is a judgement call by the scouts and the rest of the recruiting team, add to that the difficulty of actually getting deals done. So when we say: why don’t we just sign Mr X? there are many, usually very good reasons why not.

I would also add that getting players better than Fred or even McT is neither easy nor cheap. They’ve done a decent job in a side that finished second. We need to improve on them but it will cost us.

Based on our transfer activity since Ferguson left are scouts are either incompetent or they are being ignored so the fact that they seem to be favouring other players means nothing as far as I'm concerned. Aside from Cavani, last summer was absolute muck and no single player we signed made any sort of significant contribution to the team. I don't know whether they're aware of these players or if they made a judgement that these players aren't worth it, but either way I disagree with the scouting team completely if they can't find any better options than Fred and McTominay, who are absolutely not good enough players to be starting for Utd. You act like we are trying to replace Paul Scholes when neither of our midfielders should be anything more than squad players.

 

[OrcaFat]

Based on our transfer activity since Ferguson left are scouts are either incompetent or they are being ignored so the fact that they seem to be favouring other players means nothing as far as I'm concerned. Aside from Cavani, last summer was absolute muck and no single player we signed made any sort of significant contribution to the team. I don't know whether they're aware of these players or if they made a judgement that these players aren't worth it, but either way I disagree with the scouting team completely if they can't find any better options than Fred and McTominay, who are absolutely not good enough players to be starting for Utd. You act like we are trying to replace Paul Scholes when neither of our midfielders should be anything more than squad players.

No, I’m not saying McFred are as good as Scholes, but you know that. I’m not even saying they are good enough and you know that as well. I am saying they are both rather better than is being made out on here and it is absolutely not the case that you can easily upgrade them for £25m. We should upgrade them, absolutely, but my preference is to buy the absolute best player we can afford not one or two lesser players.

Bargains can be had but if a player is available for £25m you have to ask why there isn’t a queue of clubs pushing that price up.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

No, I’m not saying McFred are as good as Scholes, but you know that. I’m not even saying they are good enough and you know that as well. I am saying they are both rather better than is being made out on here and it is absolutely not the case that you can easily upgrade them for £25m. We should upgrade them, absolutely, but my preference is to buy the absolute best player we can afford not one or two lesser players.

Bargains can be had but if a player is available for £25m you have to ask why there isn’t a queue of clubs pushing that price up.

Sounds more like you're used to us overpaying for players

 

[lysglimt]

No thanks. 90m is considered very high even in pre-COVID market for any world class DM. 40-50m is the most I'd pay for him in this market.
If they want Lingard, maybe 15m + Lingard.

We are talking about a market where most elite clubs would struggle to pay 120m for Mbappe or Haaland for feck sake.

You can't seriously believe Lingard who is 28 and out of contract in 12 months should be valued at £15 million less than Rice who is 22 and has 3 years left of his contract. Especially when you add that West Ham don't want to lose Rice, whereas we are willing to let Lingard go.

I would say realistically even it todays market - Rice should be valued £40-50 million higher than Lingard

 

[OrcaFat]

Sounds more like you're used to us overpaying for players

If a player is £25m why does nobody else want him?

Another question would be how much is Fred worth? How much better a player do we need than Fred on a percentage level. Working it out from that, the number is a long way north of £25m.

 

[Dazzmondo]

No, I’m not saying McFred are as good as Scholes, but you know that. I’m not even saying they are good enough and you know that as well. I am saying they are both rather better than is being made out on here and it is absolutely not the case that you can easily upgrade them for £25m. We should upgrade them, absolutely, but my preference is to buy the absolute best player we can afford not one or two lesser players.

Bargains can be had but if a player is available for £25m you have to ask why there isn’t a queue of clubs pushing that price up.

Can't you make this point about literally any player that was signed for a reasonable price before any other teams seemed to be interested? I don't remember there being much competition for Salah before Liverpool signed him. Maybe I'm wrong on that example but either way there are certainly plenty of cases of top players being signed for reasonable fees without an all-out war taking place for their signature. Also worth pointing out that we don't actually know clubs aren't trying to sign these players, there could very well be talks going on that the media hasn't gotten wind of yet.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

If a player is £25m why does nobody else want him?

Another question would be how much is Fred worth? How much better a player do we need than Fred on a percentage level. Working it out from that, the number is a long way north of £25m.

You seem to be equating price tag with quality . If so then Fred maybe but I'm sure it shouldn't be hard to scout a good 25m player that is an upgrade on Mctominay. But quality does not equate price tag, im sure there's a 25m player that is also an upgrade on Fred. Though I think may be harder to find than an upgrade on Mctominay for that price
.

But there are also opportunities such as a player on his last year of contract. Thiago for example who Liverpool got for 25m and 'based on reports' it looked like only Liverpool were interested

 

[OrcaFat]

You seem to be equating price tag with quality . If so then Fred maybe but I'm sure it shouldn't be hard to scout a good 25m player that is an upgrade on Mctominay. But quality does not equate price tag, im sure there's a 25m player that is also an upgrade on Fred. Though I think may be harder to find than an upgrade on Mctominay for that price
.

But there are also opportunities such as a player on his last year of contract. Thiago for example who Liverpool got for 25m and 'based on reports' it looked like only Liverpool were interested

Yeah but Thiago doesn’t look like great value really.

Price doesn’t equal quality but if a player is not quality, who on earth will pay the price? Conversely who can expect quality if they won’t pay the price?

I’m all for getting a great player for a low price but I don’t expect it to happen at all.

 

[TheReligion]

You seem to be equating price tag with quality . If so then Fred maybe but I'm sure it shouldn't be hard to scout a good 25m player that is an upgrade on Mctominay. But quality does not equate price tag, im sure there's a 25m player that is also an upgrade on Fred. Though I think may be harder to find than an upgrade on Mctominay for that price
.

But there are also opportunities such as a player on his last year of contract. Thiago for example who Liverpool got for 25m and 'based on reports' it looked like only Liverpool were interested

Thiago has been turd though and is 30

 

[TheReligion]

I'll pay half the fee. Get him in.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Thiago has been turd though and is 30

Yeah but Thiago doesn’t look like great value really.

Price doesn’t equal quality but if a player is not quality, who on earth will pay the price? Conversely who can expect quality if they won’t pay the price?

I’m all for getting a great player for a low price but I don’t expect it to happen at all.

Both of you wouldn't swap Thiago for Mctominay or Fred?

 

[TheReligion]

Both of you wouldn't swap Thiago for Mctominay or Fred?

No

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

No

Fair

 

[RedRonaldo]

You can't seriously believe Lingard who is 28 and out of contract in 12 months should be valued at £15 million less than Rice who is 22 and has 3 years left of his contract. Especially when you add that West Ham don't want to lose Rice, whereas we are willing to let Lingard go.

I would say realistically even it todays market - Rice should be valued £40-50 million higher than Lingard

Yes, if Lingard is on longer contact he would have cost more than Rice.
I value Rice at 40-50m, and Lingard at 30m (if he is on longer contact would have cost over 60m)

Lingard:
9 goals 4 assist in 15 games
Avg rating: 7.27
mom: 2
dribble: 1.2
key pass: 1.2
pass rate: 83.7%
tackle: 0.7
interception: 0.3

Rice:
1 goal 1 assist in 31 games
Avg rating: 6.98
mom: 1
dribble: 0.9
key pass: 0.7
pass rate: 88.7%
tackle: 1.8
interception: 1.9

Fred:
1 goal 0 assist in 30 games
Avg rating: 6.92
mom: 0
dribble: 0.8
key pass: 0.8
pass rate: 87.7%
tackle: 1.5
interception: 1.5

Lingard is performing better than him, but they are playing in different role.
Fred is more comparative to him, he is better than Fred defensively, and similar to Fred offensively.

 

[OrcaFat]

Both of you wouldn't swap Thiago for Mctominay or Fred?

Oooh! Low blow.

Difficult to say as he was such a good player. He’s not the player he was but it’s against my principles to take McFred above that kind of quality.

Cold light of day, I don’t think he’d improve us these days. And he’s only heading down from here, probably pretty fast. Great player in the past though.

If he was 22 and the Thiago of old he would be £90m or more, I suppose.

 

[Bebestation]

I got to say that I think West Ham are a different level when Declan Rice is there vs When he was out injured.

He scored today too.

Just seems like everything is back there in a team when he plays for them rather than without him.


I know people want a deep lying playmaker - but when watching ruben neves tonight; he seemed a big difference from a Carrick player who could dictate the tempo of our game whilst Neves is more just a good passer of the ball in certain scenarios.

You could see that in carrick during his west ham days

 

[Bwuk]

Id love Rice but think West Ham will price him too high. He’d cost us more than we paid for Bruno.

 

[Stacks]

I think there’s an obvious point here - you don’t rate him as much as I do.

I agree we pretty much always pay more than anyone else would but it’s been that way a long time.

Worse than overpaying is failing to make signings which strengthen the team, which also has happened a little too often.

Regarding Keane, I wouldn’t call him a technical player and at 22 he was not noticeably more technical than Rice. He played in a variety of positions but not because he had great technique. I don’t remember him playing RM (maybe he did occasionally) but he was used at RB a bit, mostly because we had Robson and Ince when he came here. He was a British record transfer fee for any position, not just midfield, and probably would go for a record fee now.

Scholes is an interesting one. He was a bit of a later bloomer and he changed so much across his career. But still, let’s say the 28 year old incarnation would have been worth a tidy sum. Not quite so much at 22.

fair enough. I'll be studying him under a microscope at the Euros.