Before we bought Bruno he was playing RCM for Sporting
Declan Rice
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People really think Fred and Mctominay are our first choice double pivot
Ermmm.....because they are. Haven't you been watching us? Those two have played more than anyone.
Pogba is obviously better than both but Ole clearly doesn't trust Pogba in that role or more to the point he doesn't trust the two CB's with Pogba ahead of them.
We don't have a first choice double pivot imo. It changes according to tactics and player availability. Lets say everyone is fit and we play Chelsea Fulham and Newcastle. Mcfred midfield will feature only in the Chelsea gane
I don't trust Pogba with the ball in our half.
I'm not saying whether what im saying is right - however I feel like Bruno is starting to struggle a bit playing in this SS type of role all the time.
He is still very useful and able to come up with the goods, but it maybe time we play him in a central partnership so we rely less on him and more on a combination of Pogba and Bruno.
Bruno is getting marked all the time and it kind of leaves Pogba free.
It's why Rice does sound good because its arguably the closest thing to Fernandinho, De Bryune and Silva - the 2 CM/CAM's that are protected by the pure CDM.
Pogba and Bruno may start a bit deeper but get to focus on getting forward - rather than starting forward and having to drop back to do defensive work.
Agree on this. I'd love for us to get a DM that would allow us to play Pogba and Bruno as 8s. I think it will help improve Bruno's all round game by simplifying it. In fact I think this is where VdB will also shine.
I don't know if Ole wants to change formation though but it's not impossible. He's no stranger to being flexible with formations and he played the 4-3-3 at Molde.
We need to move on from playing more defence minded players, to more attack minded if we are to bridge the gap from top 4 to title winners. If Rice enables us to play Bruno and another further forward, (as I think pogba is off), then him or similar is needed.
He was guilty of not being Roy Keane, but the guy was absolute quality and miles above what we currently have, everyone with a sane football brain could see how good he is, of course that didn’t include the England manager.
Yeah agree with everything you say.
I'm not 100% myself but don't really watch enough football to be 100% on anyone.
For sure if we sign Rice we'd need to tinker with the other two midfielders. But I think that tinkering needs to happen anyway.
This is the interesting aspect of this potential signing that I think many people including myself possibly underrate. We've seen McTominay be fairly productive and powerful this season. It inevitably does hinder that side of his game that he has to be fairly deep as you cannot leave Fred back there too often. One of his best attributes is definitely his powerful running.
In general Rice and McTominay has an intriguing look to it, they are very physical, battling players that have a fair degree of technical quality too. It has quite a no nonsense, old school feel that I would be interested to see. Throw in a staying Pogba and that starts to look very tasty. Maybe it doesn't matter that we wouldn't have the technical quality of some of the best teams in Europe if we can use our power through the team, which I think is one of the best theories for why we're much better in second halfs.
I do wonder if we would still be a little short against some of the deeper sides.
Monaco bought him for £16m if reports are to be believed and the general consensus is that they'd consider offers for around £30m plus.
I haven’t seen him enough and one stat doesn’t tell the full picture. Is he a disciplined sitter like Rice or does he run around like a dog chasing car wheels?
AWB is second yet we know we still have a lot of work to progress him
He presses and harrasses just like Fred.
He doesn't sit there in space and make easy passes, he's often in tight areas playing more on the left side.
Decent video here showing what he's about. Think he'd be a great addition to the squad.
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Rice sits in a team that sits collectively and adopts a reactive approach where defensive stability is given precedence over attacking intent.
Tchouameni plays in a very attack minded team led by Niko Kovac where defensive stability is sacrificed for goals. And when playing that way, the midfielders are required to play with risk both on the ball and off the ball. And that is a play style I believe Solskjaer wants to adopt.
Now that doesn't mean Rice would be a bad signing but rather his price tag should be enough for us to look elsewhere IMO. And Tchouameni who is a year younger looks the more rounded player both offensively and defensively from what I've seen and would be considerably cheaper in comparison.
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I think people expect to see something different than Fred & McTominay to create balance in midfield.
Based on both of your description and the stats below, I think he doesn't offer that balance. He's similar to what we already have. Not a holding midfielder and likes to conceded fouls. If anything, Fred progressive passing is better especially for a Ligue 1 player you expect Tchouameni to do better. If he plays for West Ham or Burnley, I can expect him to have less progressive passes than Fred due to their playing style. However, Monaco is one of the top team in Ligue 1 so their style should be more attacking than defending.
Maybe that is true. But looking at the midfielders he used in midfield at Molde, Hestad, Aursnes and Sarr, I would not be too sure about that. This was low risk players. Maybe he will try something different at Man Utd. That being said, it do look like he prefer McTominay and Fred over Pogba at central midfield.
Furthermore, I'm not sure Thoumani offers more than Rice going forward. But he sure looks like a very good player and a great talent!
The biggest misconception with Rice is that he'll suddenly mean we play 4-3-3 with Pogba and Bruno ahead of him, it's too defensively weak. Ole has clearly realized we are better with a strong base and Pogba as LM, very similar to how Zidane played for Real Madrid. So even if we bought Rice who is good defensively, we still need a ball player next to him like Tielemans next to Ndidi, Gundogan next to Rodri, Jorginho next to Kante etc.....
I agree on one part that I don't think we will see Rice Pogba pair used often except against team that sit deep. I don't know why people have issue with Pogba plays on the left. It's similar to how we used Mata on the right back in the day or how Pep used Foden/Bernardo on wing, they will operate as wide playmaker. Thus, Pogba will operate as wide playmaker while Bruno will operate more as advance playmaker.
However, just in defense of what if we sign Rice. First of all, I don't think we can sign both holding midfielder and ball player in this summer. Second, Rice is holding midfielder and we don't have that at the moment, by signing Rice we can let Fred, McTominay or may be even VDB to roam more in opposition half while Rice who is good in his positioning can cover in our own half and recycle the ball like how Liverpool use Henderson & Fabinho. Third, or may be the future plan is to play Rice & Garner in midfield two like Rodri & Gundogan partnership, and it's just coincidence that we might able to use Lingard as part of deal to sign Rice this summer.
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McTominay and Fred are both #8s in midfield who do need upgrading IMO mostly due to their lack of ability on the ball. And Pogba doesn't suit playing in the double pivot IMO.
Hestad was deployed as a right sided forward in a 4-3-3 or a right wing forward in a 4-2-3-1. I don't believe he was used as a central midfield player from the games I watched. Maybe someone from Norway can correct me if I'm wrong. Etzaz Hussain was a player that Solskjaer used in the double pivot in most, if not all the games I watched. And Eikrem played as the #10. And his team played a high pressing style with the backline and fullbacks pushed up high in a very high risk approach. So depending on which zonal area the transition was taking place, each player from midfield to attack was involved in the transition and to provide the counter press threat off the ball including the wide pressing 3 pronged wolf pack attack which involved the two midfielders, the wide wing forwards and the fullbacks who were pushed up high.
McTominay and Fred are both #8s in midfield who do need upgrading IMO mostly due to their lack of ability on the ball. And Pogba doesn't suit playing in the double pivot IMO.
Daniel Berg Hestad? Right wing forward? I think you have him confused Eirik Hestad.
Something dies inside me whenever this thread gets bumped.
Eirik Hestad is the player I'm referring to and the games I watched were in the 18/19 season.
Same.
If Pogba signs a new contract and Cavani stays I think we can sort it out this summer, I know everyone wants a shiny new RW but are people not seeing Mason's progression there? He's still 19 and has been learning the position over the last year, so if we have him, Pogba, Rashford and Amad competing for the 2 wide spots in the front 4 I don't see spending another £50M+ to buy another option, and I truly don't see a CB coming in now Bailly has re-signed unless Axel is getting sold. I'm not the biggest fan of Rice but lets say we buy him for £60M and sell them Jesse for £25M and then buy a player like Neuhaus or Locatelli to go with him, that's a sub £100M summer before even factoring in the possible sales of De Gea, Mata and James.
I don't understand this either. Is it just some notion that we need a pure winger/striker out there? Thought he was really good in that role, combines nicely with Shaw and really adds a lot to our attack with his passing and dribbling from that area.
Take it you clearly aren't a fan of him then and hope we look elsewhere for a DM instead
Not sure DM is a priority for us as of yet and no I don't think he offers much more than McT does.
Previously I've been advocating for Rice, but I've thought long and hard, and I don't think he's the right fit for what we need. We already have two very hard-working, ball-winning midfielders in Fred and McTominay (Rice may be better than them at it, but set that aside for one second). What you notice when you watch our games is that we struggle when teams press us. And the one thing I think Fred and McTominay aren't good enough at is being able to turn out when pressed in the final third and get us going. I think that's what we need more than a classic DM, as I'd argue we already have at least one in Fred, if not two in Scott (though I think he's better as an 8). I think we need to invest in a holding midfielder who gives a significantly improved quality on the ball, and the ability to turn and play a forward pass under pressure in our own half. I don't think any of our current midfielders are capable of doing that.
when a team presses high up the field, they normally deploy 7 players in the opponent’s half. Pool put 8 players doing it. Our play against the most of such a kind still builds up the attack with normally 5 (2 cb, 1 fb, mcfred) or 6 players without much trouble. Think about it, 5 vs 7. The issue I think we have is the upfront players don’t have enough work rate and ball control capability. We can add one or two in that area if we want to be more dominant. Rice is similar to McFred, I think he or many others can offer us the needed depth which we lack this season, because Matic declined quicker than we anticipated a year ago. Matic can only play the last 15 mins to have real impact now. If we have an extra player to rotate with mcfred, I think we won’t run into February’s dip of form and dropped off from the title race. Remember we have played two games per week for months.
I dont like Rice either. Its like dont we have any smarter players we can get? Partey would have been a good DM for us.
I haven’t watched a great deal of him but from the few times I’ve seen West ham play and some of his highlights he seems like he’d be an upgrade on what we currently have in the CDM position. Having said that I wouldn’t move heaven and earth for him. A straight swap deal with Lingard would be a win win for both clubs. Considering how Lingard has been playing for them lately I would think Lingard is more valuable to West Ham than Rice?
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Sigh. Another one.
Rice is their biggest asset. Lingard has played what 7-8 games for them? Yes they need goals more and Jesse would be ideal but he’s only got 1 year left on his contract and hardly played in the last year at United. The most we will get for him is £30-35m. Will that buy rice? No, realistically we would probably need to get to £60m with add-ons on top. So it would be lingard plus money from us
I have no faith that this deal will happen. I can’t see him moving anywhere to be honest. I do hope I’m wrong though as I think he’d be great for us
that's a nonsense, Fred is miles better than Pogba defending and McTominay is not worse either, those are the players to do the dirty work and because of them other players Pogba included can go all out and attack, so it's not really wise to claim such things. Pogba is definitely miles better then them in an advanced role but at a double pivot, it's highly speculative in which area he's better and in which he's second/third best. For me I think he can play there and be a highly effective player but he often lacks the discipline and willingness to stuck in, while he's also slow on turn and first 3,4 meteres which is so important in football, more so when it comes to defending. People need to stop comparing apples and oranges.
Rice is a hard player to judge.
He makes things look simple, sometimes he looks like he isn't doing anything at all.
That can be annoying in attacking terms whilst it can be a more of a greater thing defensively.
It's kind of why I'm judging him on purely whether we actually buy him or not.
If we dont buy him then I will believe he is not good enough- that the simplicity he plays with is due to a lack of footballing ability.
Alternatively, if we buy him then im pretty sure the guy will be fantastic for us and provides us that stability to go an play that extra attacking player to break down low blocks whilst also being that 3rd CB type arseh**e that makes attacking us an extra level harder to take down centrally whilst still making it looking simple.
Ole clearly targets players with an individual talent (from James's speed to Wan Bissaka's slide tackles) that he hope's the player can improve on.
If he goes for Rice then I believe Rice has an individual talent and him playing that CDM role with simplicity of positioning and tackling is one.
He makes things look simple, sometimes he looks like he isn't doing anything at all.
That can be annoying in attacking terms whilst it can be a more of a greater thing defensively.
It's kind of why I'm judging him on purely whether we actually buy him or not.
If we dont buy him then I will believe he is not good enough- that the simplicity he plays with is due to a lack of footballing ability.
Alternatively, if we buy him then im pretty sure the guy will be fantastic for us and provides us that stability to go an play that extra attacking player to break down low blocks whilst also being that 3rd CB type arseh**e that makes attacking us an extra level harder to take down centrally whilst still making it looking simple.
Ole clearly targets players with an individual talent (from James's speed to Wan Bissaka's slide tackles) that he hope's the player can improve on.
If he goes for Rice then I believe Rice has an individual talent and him playing that CDM role with simplicity of positioning and tackling is one.
I don't deny Rice could be an improvement but I don't think he's worth pursuing for any large fee's.
I feel it, too.
I think that British players have their tax and paying 80 mil for Maguire broke me a bit. Yes, he is an upgrade, but still - 80 mil? So this feeling has transferred into Rice-saga as well and I despise it.
Yes, it's not my money, but just overpaying is stupidity and it makes me feel that the board or the decision-makers are weirdly dumb. I dislike this feeling.
80 mil for Kante, yes. 80 mil for Casemiro, why not? 80 mil for Rice...
It depends on what we think we need. Another defensive minded player or more of a playmaker. Imo we got enough creativity around the pitch: Pogba, Fernandes, Rashford, Greenwood from the front, Maguire & currently Lindelof from the back + Luke Shaw, they all have playmaking skills to get us chances we need, all we might need is steel and that bit of flair can be something extra but it is very hard to find that kind of player who have both.
Rice would be a good alternative to Fred but whoever thinks we will improve our creativity/ is insane, he's not even better than Fred and they are similar defensively. Perhaps they could work good in pair while McT is just average both defensively and even worse going forward. But imo wouldn't be that bad having Rice to form an ultra hardworking duo to provide that solid base, especially with dodgy passive defender like Lindelof but that's another topic we should address and new acquisiton there wouldn't make us compensate in midfield. Ole hopefully knows it judging how much time McFred spent together.
For me Rice is another overhyped young english player so much pushed by media to succeed it's incredible but profile wise I think we could do well with that kind of CM because we are one Fred injury away from losing all the protection and legs in midfield. Those who watch closely can easily identify the zombie games with Pogba/McT, Matic combos at CM, with the lack of protection and tempo so much needed at top flight football. In reality it's not a big problem with Rice himself but how much he's valued, if he'd cost 30million he would certainly be worth a punt and time spent developing but he'd more cost 60-70 million now which is crazy amount comparing that to his basic abilities.
As a b) plan it would certainly be tempting to land someone like Tielemans but then we might have that problem again with a player like Fred out, because Tielemans as we all know is not a slouch but he certainly can't work well without a monster defensive player like Ndidi. We could also save ourselves some crazy money and give Garner because he's similar profile to YT and would provide both good creativity form the deep but also decent amount of protection from what it seems. But it might be perhaps one season too early for him to feature regularly for a team like ours.
So we should just plan around what we have and will have soon because funds are not unlimited like at City.
Rice would be a good alternative to Fred but whoever thinks we will improve our creativity/ is insane, he's not even better than Fred and they are similar defensively. Perhaps they could work good in pair while McT is just average both defensively and even worse going forward. But imo wouldn't be that bad having Rice to form an ultra hardworking duo to provide that solid base, especially with dodgy passive defender like Lindelof but that's another topic we should address and new acquisiton there wouldn't make us compensate in midfield. Ole hopefully knows it judging how much time McFred spent together.
For me Rice is another overhyped young english player so much pushed by media to succeed it's incredible but profile wise I think we could do well with that kind of CM because we are one Fred injury away from losing all the protection and legs in midfield. Those who watch closely can easily identify the zombie games with Pogba/McT, Matic combos at CM, with the lack of protection and tempo so much needed at top flight football. In reality it's not a big problem with Rice himself but how much he's valued, if he'd cost 30million he would certainly be worth a punt and time spent developing but he'd more cost 60-70 million now which is crazy amount comparing that to his basic abilities.
As a b) plan it would certainly be tempting to land someone like Tielemans but then we might have that problem again with a player like Fred out, because Tielemans as we all know is not a slouch but he certainly can't work well without a monster defensive player like Ndidi. We could also save ourselves some crazy money and give Garner because he's similar profile to YT and would provide both good creativity form the deep but also decent amount of protection from what it seems. But it might be perhaps one season too early for him to feature regularly for a team like ours.
So we should just plan around what we have and will have soon because funds are not unlimited like at City.
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