Decades Draft Tournament : Stobzilla vs Theon

Who will win based on all the players at their peak?


  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .
Well it depends, I don't really think having extra men in one area of the pitch will automatically give you an advantage there if you're more vulnerable/weak in another part, that was my whole point, that the small differences in formations tend to balance each other out and it's the personelle that actually makes the difference.

It's both.

There is no real advantage in playing wingers against a diamond if the ones you have aren't any good. But if you play good wingers against a diamond then it is a huge advantage.

That's what is happening here.

Same for the middle of the pitch, you can have an extra man and play 4-5-1 but if you come up against a Matthaus/Rijkaard midfield then that extra man isn't going to mean a whole lot.
 
Saying things like 'the Xmas tree is vulnerable out wide' is bullshit IMO, as long as you have players to press into those positions it doesn't make it any more vulnerable than a 442 or a 4231. In fact, I'd rather have a Gerrard/Masopust helping my fullbacks than certain traditional wingers like Ronaldinho or Jairzinho!
 
Saying things like 'the Xmas tree is vulnerable out wide' is bullshit IMO, as long as you have players to press into those positions it doesn't make it any more vulnerable than a 442 or a 4231. In fact, I'd rather have a Gerrard/Masopust helping my fullbacks than certain traditional wingers like Ronaldinho or Jairzinho!

That is just bollocks and you should watch some games.

For Italy the likes of De Rossi and Gattuso are perfect to press into wide areas but that is still where the space is. If someone is a midfielder then they aren't out there all time, they are in centre mid and the space is out wide.

You can try and press to make up the ground but that is still where the space is to exploit - not in the middle but on the wings.
 
The idea that one formation is naturally at a disadvantage to another is silly IMO.

That was your original statement, which simply isn't true.

Play a 235 against a 442 to see why.

The history of football proves why there are certain formations that are better suited to dealing with others. I've already agreed that all formations have strengths and weaknesses.The diamond makes up for it's lack of width by being stronger in the middle vs a 442 or 4231. A team playing with a lone striker vs a team with a back 3 surely has an advantage in midfield, yes? Remember our tie in the all-time draft when you came out with that clusterfeck of a formation and lost as a result? https://www.redcafe.net/threads/all-time-fantasy-draft-thisistheone-v-fergusson.365737/

Anyway, no gonna derail the thread anymore. maybe...
 
It's both.

There is no real advantage in playing wingers against a diamond if the ones you have aren't any good. But if you play good wingers against a diamond then it is a huge advantage.

That's what is happening here.

Same for the middle of the pitch, you can have an extra man and play 4-5-1 but if you come up against a Matthaus/Rijkaard midfield then that extra man isn't going to mean a whole lot.

:lol:

Changed your tune now that you don't have a diamond! I'd rather a diamond to play against Ronaldinho etc than a system with two wingers whos attacking is their best quality and defence not so much.
 
That is just bollocks and you should watch some games.

For Italy the likes of De Rossi and Gattuso are perfect to press into wide areas but that is still where the space is. If someone is a midfielder then they aren't out there all time, they are in centre mid and the space is out wide.

You can try and press to make up the ground but that is still where the space is.


Watch some games?!

You should stop taking this shit so seriously!

Anyway, the statement is true, reductio ad absurdum aside.
 
:lol:

Changed your tune now that you don't have a diamond! I'd rather a diamond to play against Ronaldinho etc than a system with two wingers whos attacking is their best quality and defence not so much.

fecking hell, ayee that is what I'm doing Fergus :rolleyes:

You have some sort of problem with me and you were always going to say stuff like this, but lets not talk bollocks. In the last draft time and time again all that was repeated is that the diamond was vulnerable out wide, half my time was spent trying to convince people that Gattuso and De Rossi could do a job in minimising that threat.

If you come up against good wingers then a narrow formation is vulnerable there.
 
In fact, I'd rather have a Gerrard/Masopust helping my fullbacks than certain traditional wingers like Ronaldinho or Jairzinho!

Exactly. I have no idea where this whole "lack of width is a defensive weakness" stuff came from. It's relevant if the fullbacks have nothing to worry about behind their backs, but Pelé and Rivaldo are plenty to worry about!
 
fecking hell, ayee that is what I'm doing Fergus :rolleyes:

You have some sort of problem with me and you were always going to say stuff like this, but lets not talk bollocks. In the last draft time and time again all that was repeated is that the diamond was vulnerable out wide, half my time was spent trying to convince people that Gattuso and De Rossi could do a job in minimising that threat.

If you come up against good wingers then a narrow formation is vulnerable there.



You behave like a child when it comes to these drafts! From what I remember everyone completely bought into the idea that Gattusso and De Rossi would press the wings, I certainly did.

I made a point, offered my opinion. Your AM and then yourself get me into a conversation about it, tell me to 'get real', and when I defend my opinion you start crying about some agenda.

:lol:
 
Exactly. I have no idea where this whole "lack of width is a defensive weakness" stuff came from. It's relevant if the fullbacks have nothing to worry about behind their backs, but Pelé and Rivaldo are plenty to worry about!


Come on, you clearly have a agenda against theon, why would you say these thing otherwise? Why? Why???
 
That is just bollocks and you should watch some games.

For Italy the likes of De Rossi and Gattuso are perfect to press into wide areas but that is still where the space is. If someone is a midfielder then they aren't out there all time, they are in centre mid and the space is out wide.

You can try and press to make up the ground but that is still where the space is to exploit - not in the middle but on the wings.

You got it right earlier but are going back to the same mistake. The reason your wide players are handy is that it stretches Stob and opens up space in the middle for Maradona, not that the space is out wide. i.e. wingers are handy against a diamond because they help decongest/create space in the centre of the park, not because the space is on the flanks.
 
Yeah, iv been warned about the 352 but thought I would give it a go anyway. From a tactical respective it's a great formation, and in reality I think it would give me the advantage here.

Look it's Fergus but this time he's saying a formation would give him an advantage. Strange.
 
I have a feeling we are arguing about the proverbial chicken and egg here.
 
Look it's Fergus but this time he's saying a formation would give him an advantage. Strange.

Is that because of the personelle in each formation, or did I just say 352 would give me an advantage over other formations regardless of anything?

The former.

Try again Tito, theon is teaching you well!
 
You behave like a child when it comes to these drafts! From what I remember everyone completely bought into the idea that Gattusso and De Rossi would press the wings, I certainly did.

I made a point, offered my opinion. Your AM and then yourself get me into a conversation about it, tell me to 'get real', and when I defend my opinion you start crying about some agenda.

:lol:

I told you to get real because you were talking rubbish, TITO was blatantly right that certain tactics have benefits over another but you were just going off on one again.

De Rossi and Gattuso could press the wings, but that was still where the threat was. It wasn't in the middle with 4 centre mids in there, it was out wide and I had to go into real detail to convince people they could do it.

As I said above if you watch the games of that Milan or Italy team then outwide is where the space is. They were compact in the middle and vulnerable on the flanks. De Rossi and Gattuso can help deal with that but its still where the threat is.
 
Ok, not everyone that has a different opinion to you is talking rubbish or needs to get real. I think the same of you more often than not but don't mind you having your own views.

Anyway, one formation isn't inherently superior to another without considering the other factors.
 
Okay, so we agree having Jairzinho and Ronaldinho against a narrow team is an advantage.

Yes we do, did I say otherwise? Or is that your sole intention in these threads, to twist everything so it resembles a compliment to your team?

All I did say, was that one formation isn't automatically 'superior' to another without considering other factors.
 
Okay, so we agree having Jairzinho and Ronaldinho against a narrow team is an advantage.

Depending on the quality of personnel and how you choose to use them, yes it could be, but you are taking wingers and wanting them to cut inside and further congest an area I am already flooding. Carlos "stretching" the width is a non-factor in this context.
 
Didn't take you long to get accustomed to the culture at your new team!

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Claws are out!
 
Theon, if what you are saying is that 4-2-3-1 is an appropriate formation against a diamond/XMAS tree that obviously is correct, you use the flanks to drag people (e.g. Gerrard!!!!!) to the flanks rather than try to work your way through a central clusterfeck.

It doesn't mean a XMAS tree or diamond is "inferior" though. You could argue it is inferior going forward (not in defence) IF it cannot project and take advantage of wide areas, which Stob clearly can.

Football is a dynamic game and when the players on the pitch are of this quality I don't give a rats about the formation but how they will go about their game.

In that sense Gio has a point, Stobs' defensive setup is sturdier than yours. Rivaldo and Pelé have complete freedom between the lines and are well supported by Gerrard and Masopust, probably Briegel occasionally. Tigana has too much work to do and your front three will contribute jack when you don't have the ball. You are top heavy indeed, and surely you knew that from the outset.
 
:lol:

That's why I like you in these drafts Tito, you know it's nothing more than some light hearted fun!
 
We've played in enough drafts together (including the newbies) to know it's all fun mate.


@Anto, whilst I agree that Ronaldinho-Maradona-Jairzinho makes it seem top heavy, at the same time we're not talking about 4 mugs at the back. Passarella is one of the greats. With Batistuta up top on his own, there's a man spare to cover and I see Xavi and Tigana sitting deep, to deny space between the line of DF and MF (Theon correct me if I'm wrong here). Add in the likely Ferrara sub soon to make it a back 3 if/when Carlos goes forward, it's very sturdy. But make no mistake, Theon's strength is his attack. When he gets the ball it's got goal threat written all over it. I just see so many goals in this team.
 
What are the clear arrangements? You're reading what you want to read. The only plan for Maradona is that Keane is on him which is no different to me saying Tigana and Xavi are sitting deep around Pele, with Batistuta not possessing a huge threat in behind in the way Ronaldo is the defensive line is sitting higher than Stobz and further restricting the space for Pele.

As I also said in the thread the lack of a wide threat means the fullbacks are tucking in because there is no threat on the flanks, which again further reduced the space to play through.

'Keane on Maradona' isn't a plan.

As for Rivaldo everyone on here has said that he will be drifting to the left, and in the OP it says that Amoros will mark him when he does. That is just as much as plan as anything on the other team.

It's simple enough. Stobz has a tight central three to protect his defence, all of whom are all-round, defensively robust midfielders. You've got Tigana and, to a lesser extent in a defensive sense, Xavi. That would be a big ask against a bog standard number 10, never mind up against the best of the 40s and 70s generations. With the ball your team looks fantastic. Without the ball it is very vulnerable.
 
Gotta go, I may as well give this a shot in the arm going into the final hour.
 
Thanks for that anto! Bloody one vote in it going into the final hour...

Need a bit of magic from one of the Brazilians, or Diego.
 
This has been dead for ages and I actually do think he would win it on the back of your midfield getting run over.

Getting three out of the four at the back wrong/misplaced for an entire half also counts in my book :smirk: What was the point of Amoros over Ferrara if all you would bang on about was Carlos? Bizarre.
 
Equally Stob not doing a write up or tactics would leave his players in limbo. Meanwhile Theon has our lads well drilled with a great write up.
 
It should have counted in your game. I was away for that unfortunately.

You could also argue Stob didn't need much drilling as it was very much the same side as in the last game but with Baresi instead of Ruggeri, while you went from playing with a pivot spraying balls to playing with Maradona pulling strings upfront. That needs more drilling from one game to the next :smirk:

But yeah, it should be a consideration, but I'm not going to take a stand on that and hold it against Stob when the feedback to everyone from my game was the opposite. I would be dragging personal agendas into this.
 
Yeah fair enough. Tbh this whole draft has felt like it contains a few managerial rivalries. Perhaps a lot of drafts in quick succession has resulted in a Mourinho v guardiola type rivalry. Which influences votes.