Too incredibly good teams. Grappling with what role Gerrard would have on the game - he's had a terrific impact on the right wing loads of times, both going forward and defensively, and he has the pace and power to keep up with Roberto Carlos. On paper he's got all the assets to play the role that Stob has earmarked for him to a tee, but whether he's got the nous and discipline to pull it off is another matter.
Decades Draft Tournament : Stobzilla vs Theon
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
Not a chance, you said you wouldn't underrate players or resort to hyper-bole yet you're playing Jairzinho down hugely here.
No. I am giving Briegel props, we all know how good your man is
If Gerrard is doing a job on Carlos then he should be positioned as a right winger
At the moment you have the visual of him playing centre mid and giving a 3 vs 2 in the middle, yet he's also supposed to be doing a job on Carlos. He can't do both, if he's playing centre mid then the majority of times Carlos will be untracked. He might be able to get across occasionally but wingbacks get forward so quick that it isnt going to be often.
What is the end product of this width though ? Crosses into the box ? Ronaldo wasn't brilliant in the air and Baresi would gobble up high balls all day long.
Gerrard, are you serious? Not a chance. Also he was no where near disciplined enough to keep Carlos quiet.
I'm being very negative about Stobby's team here and that ain't fair. For all I've said about Theon's team, Stobby has some truly great players and what seems to be a great team cohesion. He will be giving as many problems as he's facing and it will be really tight but the 3/4 players I mentioned originally, swung it for me.
4-2 right now as TITO's Theon's AM.
No not at all, its just about using the whole pitch and stretching the defence. A narrow attack is easier to defend against than a wide attack because when the defence gets stretched gaps start to appear
But nah its not really crossing, Ronaldinho played off the left and he was scoring 20+ goals a season for Barcelona. He wasn't crossing the ball but cutting inside and running at the defence.
Jairzinho is the same, both can go either side of a fullback and both were goalscorers with Jairzinho almost on scoring 1 in 2 at club level, as he sometimes played centrally. Then he scored in every game in the 1970 World Cup cutting in from the right wing
Here are Jairzinho's goals in the World Cup, the second one is absolutely brilliant and it shows what I mean about cutting in from the right
Gerrard should be on the right really. This looks a lot more balanced surely.
----------Batistuta--------
Rivaldo-----Pele-----Gerrard
-----Masopust---Keane----
----------Batistuta--------
Rivaldo-----Pele-----Gerrard
-----Masopust---Keane----
To be honest, Theon's team has got the lot.
I'm going off for a bit now Stobz to get some work finished, but I'll check in later if you're still up 
Would Ronaldinhio get to do much in the game with Maradona there playing in the hole?
And if he does come off his wing it frees up Lahm to give support on the right when attacking. That side whilst being a formidable prospect going forwards is a bit of a defensive liability.
Gerrard was bloody quick when he got going.
Ronaldinho played on the left for Barcelona exactly where he is now, he is not playing in the same area as Maradona as they play in different positions.
It's actually ridiculous that you brought that up when the opposition has Rivaldo and Pele playing in attacking midfield, as well as Gerrard in behind who played his best football in attacking midfield and constantly makes those runs forward.
Pele is completely crowded out and isn't made the most out off, yet you bring up Ronaldinho who has the freedom of the left wing to play his football in his best position. Mental.
Two great looking sides with some of the very top talent in them.
Some comments having looked at it and read up:
Some comments having looked at it and read up:
- Theon, you have your CBs the wrong way around.
- I largely see Gerrard in a midfield role, occasionally supporting Lahm if needed and turning into the wide right player when in possession (a bit like what Fergus did with Schweini in the CL draft, only that Gerrard will be better at it).
- Forster starting gets massive kudos from me. Charles can help with the 30s issue and if there were any aerial threat, but there is no need to play him here when Forster is best suited to play alongside Baresi, let alone Briegel, and will be more accomplished at the sort of modern defensive setup Theon's fronline calls for. Not great votes-wise but absolutely the right choice. I rate Jairzinho very highly, but also that pair on the left who will no doubt be underrated and can actually do the job at hand.
- Tigana is a good fit with Xavi and will perform, no question. It's a big job he has though.
- The attacking trios/quartets are Proper goalfest indeed, with Stob maybe better placed to shut things down since he can bring Charles on to protect a lead.
- Theon is a bit tied up in terms of subs, only Ferrara can realistically come on for Amoros. In fact, I probably would have started Ferrara to balance Bobby, when he is upfield a trio of Passarella-Ramos-Ferrara would be more robust.
Yeah I moved Passarella over for this game to get the three Brazilians on that left hand side, dunno how much of a difference it will make but that was my thinking there
It makes a huge difference to me Theon. Passarella was a competent leftback and better suited to cover Roberto Carlos foraging forward.
You know my stance on wrong-footing CBs (a right-footed RCB at LCB and a left-footed LCB at RCB?????) but the Carlos cover aspect is a shocker if you did that on purpose. As said, Ferrara would give you better balance and a sturdy back three with competent fullbacks at either end when Carlos is caught out. No brainer IMO.
You know my stance on wrong-footing CBs (a right-footed RCB at LCB and a left-footed LCB at RCB?????) but the Carlos cover aspect is a shocker if you did that on purpose. As said, Ferrara would give you better balance and a sturdy back three with competent fullbacks at either end when Carlos is caught out. No brainer IMO.
Ferrara at right back is something I never even considered because there is no left winger directly facing me, so playing a centre back there seemed like a waste and Amoros the better choice.
What you are saying is persuasive though as he could drop in to form a back three if Carlos went completely attacking at times. It depends how the game panned out and if he was having trouble getting back.
Yeah moving Passarella might have been a mistake - paceme was getting credit for a dutch line up so pairing the Brazilians seemed like the better option
What you are saying is persuasive though as he could drop in to form a back three if Carlos went completely attacking at times. It depends how the game panned out and if he was having trouble getting back.
Yeah moving Passarella might have been a mistake - paceme was getting credit for a dutch line up so pairing the Brazilians seemed like the better option
Which is why Ferrara should have started. If you are ahead he is more solid than Amoros (who would you rather have tucking in against Rivaldo?) and if you are behind you can go three at the back and completely commit Carlos forward. No subs needed, start like that and you are completely flexible to how the game shapes up.
too close. won't vote.
I also wondered about this. Gerrard played his best as a 10 behind Torres without any defensive responsibility at all. Now in this game he's expected to sit in central midfield and hack it with the likes of Xavi and Tigana, whilst also covering the flanks and stopping Roberto Carlos.
Too much for him.
That's debatable TITO, I mean I have seen a lot of Liverpool fans argue on what was "Gerrard's best role" and it was never really settle. Many think his role on the right brought the best out of him, some think it was behind Torres. I haven't seen him as much as them so I can't really come to a conclusion either.
As someone said he's got the right skillset to execute the role of a right midfielder who can track back Carlos and also provide width, the one in the formation with Cutch posted demonstrates, but the question is his discipline and selfishness which can come in the way.
As someone said he's got the right skillset to execute the role of a right midfielder who can track back Carlos and also provide width, the one in the formation with Cutch posted demonstrates, but the question is his discipline and selfishness which can come in the way.
It definitely wasn't the right wing, I've never spoke to any Pool fans who said Gerrard's best role was out there.
Either way at the moment he isn't doing a job on Carlos because he isn't out there so its a nothing point really - he is playing in centre mid.
I do think he will limit Pele's influence though, along with Rivaldo. Playing in that centre mid role a huge part of his game was based on breaking forward and getting to the head of the midfield, but all that will do is add another body to a congested area and limit Pele's influence.
I can't remember what season it was but it was arguably Gerrards best for Liverpool when he played mainly on the right. He used to set up so many goals from his crossing on that side.
In a centre midfield 2 he can lack discipline and when he's in the hole you lose some of his box to box qualities, so on the right is a good compromise.
In a centre midfield 2 he can lack discipline and when he's in the hole you lose some of his box to box qualities, so on the right is a good compromise.
It was 2006-7 I think and it was not his best role. Jesus.
Gerrard is a midfielder not a right winger and his best season was 2008-09 behind Torres
Playing in attacking midfield is when he won the PFA Player of the Year and Football Writers Footballer of the Year
Not saying its his best role, just that he has shown he can do a very good job there, and should be on the right in his game imo given Stobs lack of width and the strong running of R Carlos.
Yeah I think this inside-right role strikes the right balance to allow him freedom to maraud forward without the shackles of a disciplined central role. Physically he was a beast and should be able to nullify a considerable chunk of what Carlos can offer. I suppose the questions are to what extent he might get stuck in a central battle to quell Maradona, and if he does to what extent Bobby's freedom down the left will open space for Pele to tear up.
Gerrard isn't nullifying Carlos Gio because he is playing in centre mid at the moment.
He can't do both, Cutch's formation from the last page would be the way to go if he's tracking Carlos but at the moment hes in the middle which is his best role, but it does leave Carlos open to get forward.
He can't do both, Cutch's formation from the last page would be the way to go if he's tracking Carlos but at the moment hes in the middle which is his best role, but it does leave Carlos open to get forward.
Gerrard isn't playing on the right but even if he was, helping out against Ronaldinho would be his main focus because he will have success against just Lahm. Even in that centre mid role he will get dragged out there when Maradona plays the ball out wide.
It's the same argument as your own diamond from the last tournament. Gerrard has a strong set of skills to carry out the pressing into wider areas required from the side central midfielders.
Agree it's up for debate but I remember there was uproar from pool fans when Benitez switched him onto the right. He did a very good job but nothing compared to the havok he caused as a 10 behind Torres in 2009. He should be where Pele is in this game but he's not. He's in central midfield which isn't his best position. In fact I'd rank it as his 3rd most suited role after 1. Attacking Midfielder/10 and 2. Right midfield like Benitez used him.
I dunno, maybe I'm being harsh but he seems out of position in the middle there considering who he's up against. Take all the CM's on the pitch, You'd have Xavi as the best, Keane 2nd, Tigana 3rd (who is under-rated here) and then surely Masopust (don't know a great deal about him tbh) and Gerrard?
Stobz should have played a 4231 with Gerrard on the right, imo.
I can see the rationale for a 4-3-2-1 over a 4-2-3-1. It's defensively harder to break down, which is important given the attacking riches Theon has at his disposal. And in practice it may not be that different from a lopsided 4-2-3-1 given Gerrard's ability to overlap, Rivaldo's tendency to drift left, Pele inevitably moving central to dictate.
Come on Gio, pressing a left winger like Ronaldinho or Figo is totally different to tracking the runs of a wingback. Gerrard will be pulled out wide to help against Ronaldinho, but he is in the wrong position to track the runs of Carlos overlapping
If you take that Milan side then you rarely saw someone like Gattuso tracking the runs of the fullbacks.
Absolutely. He's certainly got the skill set and physical atributes for it. The only arguments here are whether he has the tactical sense and discipline to pull the role off like Gattuso etc could, and whether he's quite good enough to mix it in this sort of rarefied company.
Stob's leading by 1 vote!
Pretty surprised I'm losing this one because the team seems perfectly set up to expose the weakness in Stobzilla's team - the lack of width.
The Christmas tree formation is vulnerable outwide and two of the best wingers of all time are out their to expose it.
On the right Jairzinho was fast and an excellent dribbler, but also a huge goal threat - 33 goals for Brazil as well as over 200 in his club career with nearly a 1 in 2 goalscoring record
On the left Ronaldinho is just as talented and another huge goal threat - Ronaldinho scored or assisted 157 goals in 181 games for Barcelona
Both wingers were stereotypical Brazilian flair players who could beat players with pace and trickery. The lack of protection for both fullbacks is a huge problem against this level of player. Time and time again Xavi and Maradona can play passes out wide to the flanks and look to expose the lack of width in the opposition.
The Christmas tree formation is vulnerable outwide and two of the best wingers of all time are out their to expose it.
On the right Jairzinho was fast and an excellent dribbler, but also a huge goal threat - 33 goals for Brazil as well as over 200 in his club career with nearly a 1 in 2 goalscoring record
On the left Ronaldinho is just as talented and another huge goal threat - Ronaldinho scored or assisted 157 goals in 181 games for Barcelona
Both wingers were stereotypical Brazilian flair players who could beat players with pace and trickery. The lack of protection for both fullbacks is a huge problem against this level of player. Time and time again Xavi and Maradona can play passes out wide to the flanks and look to expose the lack of width in the opposition.
Agree. It's a bit weird it's even getting discussed as if he were the best player on the park.
He is a functional cog in the wheel and I can see it functioning well. Will he win or lose the game? Nope.
Theon, I'm afraid this is leading you nowhere. I had a side which relied on quick counterattacking moves and everyone seemed happy about Mauro Silva dealing with Eusebio centrally AND Facchetti doubling up on the flank. I wasn't but was pretty much painted as a retard for insisting it wasn't possible.
Your side is more parsimonious, Gerrard can be in midfield and, as the play gets closer to danger areas and Lahm comes under pressure, he can provide support there. Worst case the ball goes back to Xavi in midfield and you have to start a move all over again. Or both Lahm and Gerrard are beaten, and Baresi will go cover. It's far more solid than what I was facing, and look at how it panned out...
Lack of width would be a problem going forward and, with Stobzilla in possession, you'd expect Gerrard to drift right and Rivaldo left. I don't see it.1 - Gerrard isn't dealing with Roberto Carlos and also playing in midfield IMO, he cant play two roles and its unfair for people to make out he is considering the lengths I had to blag Gattuso doing that when that was the exact role he actually played in that Milan team, even then he would never be tracking someone like Carlos. If that is what he is supposed to be doing then he should be at right wing not centre mid. Having him doing a job on Carlos and also giving a 3 vs 2 in the middle is like having an extra player - and we're talking about the worst midfielder on the pitch
Baresi covering isnt a great option anyway with Maradona and Ronaldo there in the middle. I've tried to argue that the good thing about this attack is that it is so balanced from right to left to the middle, there isnt a weak link in it and if defenders are moving out to deal with a certain part it leaves space for the other attackers, in this case Ronaldo and Maradona.
2 - The lack of width is a problem defensively as it was in the diamond formation I had last draft. If it wasnt a problem then I could have gotten away with Xavi in there but I got slated for it when I did. Both fullbacks are 1 vs 1 with two wingers and the two wingers are two of the best in the entire game, its an issue as it would be in any of the narrow formations. Carlos doubling up for a 2 vs 1 just makes that even worse. You cant play 5 central players and not be vulnerable out wide to the wingers.
Tbh my team is getting so much more criticism and scrutiny that Stobz its getting ridiculous. Most posts seem to be trying to find a reason for saying his side will work and there has barely been any scrutiny at all
Baresi covering isnt a great option anyway with Maradona and Ronaldo there in the middle. I've tried to argue that the good thing about this attack is that it is so balanced from right to left to the middle, there isnt a weak link in it and if defenders are moving out to deal with a certain part it leaves space for the other attackers, in this case Ronaldo and Maradona.
2 - The lack of width is a problem defensively as it was in the diamond formation I had last draft. If it wasnt a problem then I could have gotten away with Xavi in there but I got slated for it when I did. Both fullbacks are 1 vs 1 with two wingers and the two wingers are two of the best in the entire game, its an issue as it would be in any of the narrow formations. Carlos doubling up for a 2 vs 1 just makes that even worse. You cant play 5 central players and not be vulnerable out wide to the wingers.
Tbh my team is getting so much more criticism and scrutiny that Stobz its getting ridiculous. Most posts seem to be trying to find a reason for saying his side will work and there has barely been any scrutiny at all