Subotic must be a Brontosaurus.
Dayot Upamecano | Signs for Bayern
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Subotic must be a Brontosaurus.
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What stats are you looking at when you say he is better than him at bringing the ball out? In my opinion, Dayot looks more comfortable on the ball than Konate. And the stats I look at supports that.
I agree that Konate is more physically imposing and better in the air. But it only takes you so far. Look at Subotic or even Smalling. Van Dijk is not the worlds best defender due to being physically imposing. He is the worlds best defender due to being physically imposing in addition to being great on the ball and very rarely making mistakes. In short, he defends with a brain. Dayot appears to be a calm and intelligent defender too from what I have seen.
I have seen less of Konate, but think he is a very good prospect too. But he reminds me more of Smalling than van Dijk for now.
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Konate was statistically
German football commentators have lauded Konate as the best CB at dribbling the ball out from defence and his stats are better than Upamecano in that regard and the tweet below supports that view. Infact his ability to dribble from the back was the best in the German Buli last season and better than any CB in the EPL which should really put the Smalling comparison to bed.
I don't think Upamecano is big enough stature wise to ever be a all round dominant CB like Van Dyke who is very dominant aerially. Konate on the other hand is of similar stature to VVD and can dominate in a highline or in a deep line due to his pace, strength and excellent aerial ability. I agree Upamecano has the edge over Konate on the ball when it comes to passing the ball out from the back. But you have to take into consideration that Upamecano is further along in his development in that regard due to being slightly older and having more exposure at first team level.
I was waiting for this as soon as I saw the post above!
Impressive stat, but to me, football is a passing game. Konate appears to be very good at dribbling, but he still makes less than a dribble per game. And that makes you wonder, how important is that difference? Wan-Bissaka is very good at dribling, but he is not the one I would prefer to bring the ball forward or transition our team from defence to attack.
And in terms of a centerback making a one on one attempt with the ball, I would argue that knowing when to do that is even more important than the success ratio. Konate may be great at that, but Dayot is aswell. And he actually made more dribbles per game this season than Konate ever has (at a slightly lower, but still very impressive successratio of 77 %).
But more importantly, one should look at their passing when talking about bring the ball out. Why? Because they do that alot every game! Overall, in the BL, Upamecano makes a lot more passes per 90 than Konate. Indicating that they prefer to play out from the back from him. He has a higher completion ratio than Konate and he makes significantly more passes into the final third and into the opposing penalty box than Konate. In other words, he plays with higher risk and still manages to have a higher completion ratio. (In fact, Upamecano is the player at RBS with most passes into the final third.)
I agree that Konate is more impressive physically. But I think the importance of it is a bit overrated. Upamecano is still a very physically adept player (as the stat I linked to initally imply). Probably more similar to Desailly in stature than VvD. The best centerbacks in history where the best due to brains. Not physicallity. A few have both, like Rio and VvD. Several had the brains, like Koeman, Cannavaro and Terry (and my dad always talks about Beckenbauer).
In my opinion, we dont have to find a player that will be a VvD/Rio-clone. I dont think it is very likely we will find one, and if physicallity is the most important trait we look for, we will just as likely end up with a new Smalling or Zouma. Or even worse, a Boumsong or Mangala. I’m not saying that is Konate who looks like a very interesting prospect.
My point is rather that it dont make much sense in my opinion to underestimate Upamecano due to his physic when it is in fact very good. I would also hesitate to buy another defender just because he is taller and faster because there is so much more to being a defender.
I was waiting for this as soon as I saw the post above!
I'm not underestimating Upamecano at all. I would actually be very happy if we signed him but would prefer Konate in the long-term.
Konate not only has the braun but the brains too. He's a very intelligent CB that combines excellent physical/footballing abilities to how he reads the game. One example being how he at 19 years old demonstrated that against one of the best forwards in the world in Lewandowski who is very intelligent off the ball. Lewandowski was completed pocketed by Konate who was positionally and technically excellent against him which was another demonstration of his positional awareness and in game intelligence in addition to his physical superiority against a top tier oppononent.
His long passing at this moment in time isn't as good as Upamecano's. But like I said in my previous post, he's further behind in his development due to being slightly younger than Upamecano but I expect his long passing to improve further in the coming seasons. Ralf Rangnick has also gone on record to state that he can see Konate playing for either Real Madrid or Barcelona which is very high praise from someone with his superb record of identifying talent.
I think right now the template for a team like us should be to target a CB with similar attributes to VVD. He's the best CB in our league. And even VVD wasn't deemed good enough as a teenager by coaches in Holland because it was deemed he relied too much on his physical abilities. At 23 he wasn't deemed good enough to make the Dutch world cup squad. But what he had was physical abilities and a big presence and once the rest of his game developed he became a colossal and IMO the best all round CB in the world currently who is excellent in a deep defensive line aswell as superb in a highline defending space.
Konate IMO can develop into something similar because he's already far ahead of VVD at the same age and has already demonstrated that he can excell at both defending deep and in a highline. And his long passing is more than adequate right now and will improve further in the coming seasons and I don't think it's a issue at all.
Edit: Sorry for tagging your post in this @Rozay
A lot of players has physical abilities and big presence without developing like VvD. I rather feel player with these abilities often get hyped quite early, like Diop and Zouma.
I agree that Konate is a great prospect and it will be interesting to see how both him and Upamecano develop. My impression is that Upamecano has a higher potential and ceiling on the ball and for that I would prefer him.
But I dont think we view them that different. I too would be very positive if we signed either. I’m probably slightly more positive towards Upamecano’s physical potential compared too Konate. Konate is obviously taller, but I’m not sure how much value that is in those inches. I mean, would Desailly have been a much better defender if he was a few inches taller? Would Terry? I’m not sure it would matter much. And Upamcano is really fast too (Werner labelled him the fastest defender he has seen), so in terms of pace there is probably not much between them either.
The question here is, would we benefit from someone that is excellent aerially and is also good at bringing the ball out from defence? I would say Yes. Konate may not be on the same level as Upamecano as far as long balls go but I fully expect him to reach a similar level at the very least in the coming seasons.
It's also become some sort of a trend to label certain players of colour limited due to their immense physical capabilities which inturn leads to many false assertions. Konate is a very physically imposing CB that at a very young age has bullied the best attackers in the game. But he is much more than just a physically powerful CB. I've already mentioned his ability to break lines from the back via his surging runs which is statistically the best in the Bundesliga. His reading of the game is also a testament to how intelligent he already is at such a young age with him being among the very best CBs at intercepting attacks.
I don't care too much about a CB being excellent at long balls. If I was, I'd be advocating for us to try James Garner in that role. I'd rather have a CB that is physically imposing, excellent aerially, good on the ball and reads the play well. Konate ticks all 4 boxes and would allieviate some of the pressure on Harry Maguire to win most of his aerial duels. In our league that would benefit us greatly.
Thing is, Upamecano is both. He is excellent in the air and great at bringing the ball out from defence. Konate might be a bit better in the air, but at the same time Upamecano is better with the ball.
His success ratio for dribling might be the best in the BL. That is not equivalent to being the best at «breaking lines with surging runs» statistically.
Furthermore, in my opinion, it is not the long passing game that makes Upamecano good on the ball. It is his ability to move the ball forward quickly and breaking lines with his passes.
In my opinion, Upamecano is also physically imposing, good in the air, great on the ball and at reading the game. Statistically there is not much between them off the ball.
With regard to your trend I struggle to see the relevance for our discussion or my argument.
"Therefore someone like Konate (who won 72% of his aerial duels in the BL, one of the highest in the league) could make a massive difference to our set pieces, set pieces which shouldn't be underestimated as games are often decided based on them. Ibrahima beats Dayot in this section of height and stature"
https://www.bavarianfootballworks.c...konate-and-upamencano-and-how-they-would-help
Beats him comfortably aswell. And watching them both rather than judging solely on stats is very misleading. I say that because you've mentioned in your earlier posts you have seen very little of Konate.
Take it from someone that has watched Konate often that he's excellent at breaking lines with his dribbling and passing. Below is one example of him creating a clear goal scoring opportunity.
With regards to my trend, it's apt in this case due to you passing judgement on a player you've seen very little of and then proceeding to make comparisons to technically limited CBs which I believe I have disproven.
Sky sports are saying both Manchester clubs are interested in him.
We don't need CB as City needs. So can we dismiss as a transfer rumour that's not going to happen ?
We don't need CB as City needs. So can we dismiss as a transfer rumour that's not going to happen ?
Depends on Smalling and jones. Bailly also isnt exactly reliable from a fitness perspective.
It would not been a huge a surprise as we have been tracking him for years. He was on trail as early as 2014, right? Would feel comfortable if we sign a player that we have kept tabs on for so long.
Didn't we have him on trial and decided to let go of him?
Both this thread and the Partey thread have got bumped in the last couple of days. Adnan will be along soon to tell everybody about Konate and Zakaria.
Doesn’t his contract expire next year? Considering we nearly signed him when he was younger and the contract situation, perhaps there could be something to this story.
We know we could go in for him now rather than spending big on a CB next summer. More of a case of if the opportunity arises, you strike sort of thing.
We know we could go in for him now rather than spending big on a CB next summer. More of a case of if the opportunity arises, you strike sort of thing.
I think there’s truth in this one but if we’re looking a defender he would be a good option from Koulibaly and cheaper..
Realise Claus off £52m, not too bad considering how good he is.
Nope, we actually changed the terms of him signing a pro deal I believe. Was meant to give him an apartment, but changed it to a flat share or something. I imagine he's still massively kept tabs on since we missed out on him.
That is even more embarassing. I hope this doesn't impact our ability to sign him
Any rumours about us signing defenders is absolute garbage FFS!
Look at our roster and the age of our players and their contract situations and even the way Ole speaks.about them and anyone can see there will be no investment there.
On the attacking side I would imagine there will be investment but that is about it, all the rest is pure Clickbait and selling papers.
Look at our roster and the age of our players and their contract situations and even the way Ole speaks.about them and anyone can see there will be no investment there.
On the attacking side I would imagine there will be investment but that is about it, all the rest is pure Clickbait and selling papers.
I don't think so, not buying an apartment for a 16 year old that we have no idea how he will turn out, is hardly a bad decision.
Fbref uploaded a lot of interesting numbers today on players in big five leagues.
Upamecano was more progressive in his passing than any central defender in the PL (measured in yards). Only Laporte and Stones made more progressive carries (also measured in yards) than him.
Upamecano was more progressive in his passing than any central defender in the PL (measured in yards). Only Laporte and Stones made more progressive carries (also measured in yards) than him.
Personally disagree. Lindelof is extremely average and Bailly for all his talents seems to always be an injury or mistake waiting to happen. Sure we have numbers Jones and then Smalling and Rojo on loan. I do like the look of Tuanzabe but I would be delighted to take Konate or Upamecano. Maguire doesnt have the right partner in my opinion, style wise Tuanzabe is the best fit I feel.
Offloading Rojo, Jones and Smalling for one of them if it is at all possible, wouldnt be costly at all either 3 salaries off the books for one and three transfer fees possibly.
Agree lindelof can definatley be upgraded, gets bullied at times.
The story is that the club couldn't offer him a clear path to professional football, his parents weren't convinced by the schooling part and he didn't want to live with a local family and preferred to live in a dorm in an academy.
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Ah yes, my bad. Thanks for that.
Jones and Smalling out and replace with Upamecano sounds good to me. Bailly, Axel and Lindelof as backups and we are sorted at CB for a long time. Makes sense for this to happen but at what cost? Too costly and it's a no as we have other areas that need filling first.
Supposedly has a £52m release clause
Offset against what can be recouped on Jones/Smalling it shouldnt be too costly
Not many long term injuries but unfortunately he seems to have muscle and knee problems regularly.
Quite convenient to crop out the games missed part.
He’s missed 31 matches in 3 seasons. Bailly in the same time has 54 and Axel has 60 listed which is incorrect as it doesn’t have any listed for his first spell at Villa which was almost entirely spent injured.
He’s missed 31 matches in 3 seasons. Bailly in the same time has 54 and Axel has 60 listed which is incorrect as it doesn’t have any listed for his first spell at Villa which was almost entirely spent injured.
I don't know how accurate the below tweet is but it's worrying if it is accurate.
So people actually had no idea before that he had injury problem especially with his knee injury. That's why I'm not really interested in this guy, talented with world class potential but too risky with his injury.
I haven't watch Ben White but we should try to sign him from Brighton if he's available, I heard he has solid season with Leeds on loan, a young centre back with no poor injury record.
I haven't watch Ben White but we should try to sign him from Brighton if he's available, I heard he has solid season with Leeds on loan, a young centre back with no poor injury record.
It isn’t accurate and conveniently ignores Bailly’s previous seasons spent injured too.
The knee injury part (one injury is actually split in three and make it look worse in the overview) is not good. But he has played 11 911 minutes at senior level. Born in 1998. Bailly, born in 94, has played 12 111 minutes.
It is the same amount of games Konate missed with a muscle injury this year.
It is the same amount of games Konate missed with a muscle injury this year.
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I'd rather we either focus on keeping Tuanzebe or Bailly fit, or just move on. Lindelof isn't the best but at least he's always fit. We don't have to upgrade on him right now.
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