" Last updated at 23:00 CET on Sunday 23 June. "
Day 11 | Albania vs Spain | Croatia vs Italy
- Thread starter top1whoisman
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
" Last updated at 23:00 CET on Sunday 23 June. "
Weird. On the app it says “1 hour ago” under the title. But I’ve just noticed it only has 2 games played for Albania as well. I should’ve seen that.
Yeah I think the hour ago is with regards to the full article but the other is just when the table was last updated, does make it confusing though!
Croatia is done and has been done since 2018.
The semis in 2022 were a result of Brazil imploding. If Lukaku scores one of those sitters, Croatia gets out in group stage and we'd be talking about a 6 year long crisis of their national team.
I think that the lucky 3rd place on 2022 WC will do Croatia more harm than good in the long run. It basically cemented the old generation in starting line up for further 4 years.
Croatia needs a rebuild badly, there's no pace and energy in that team anymore. But they'll keep playing the old guard and prolong the agony.
The semis in 2022 were a result of Brazil imploding. If Lukaku scores one of those sitters, Croatia gets out in group stage and we'd be talking about a 6 year long crisis of their national team.
I think that the lucky 3rd place on 2022 WC will do Croatia more harm than good in the long run. It basically cemented the old generation in starting line up for further 4 years.
Croatia needs a rebuild badly, there's no pace and energy in that team anymore. But they'll keep playing the old guard and prolong the agony.
we've been playing this slow, shitty football for years now without manager doing anything about it. this time we couldn't even beat Albania. I mean, how long you can possibly hope that result will somehow come without ever threatening the opposition? it was Italy that got lucky yesterday the same way we got lucky in previous tournaments. it was bound to happen soon or later. sometimes you can escape your fate, but not every time. I'm not even that disappointed tbh. we simply didn't show anything deserving of the next stage and that's the sad, simple truth.
I think the midfield is still good but the other lines just arent good. Their attackers arent very good and their defenders, apart from Gvardiol, are actually pretty bad.
After Brasil Italy is second along with Germany in international football.
I agree about the game, we were unlucky but overall we had a bad tournament. Although I dont agree the game was boring.
If Lukaku this if Lukaku that. That's football for you. I mean you cant say we were done then, we were lucky yes but all the teams who reach world cup semifinals or finals have their luck along the way. For instance we werent that lucky against Argentina. And you dont know if we would qualify for this tournament if we failed to go through in 2022 (about a 6 year crisis). You can say we were dull cause.. well. We were.
Although you're right about a rebuild. We have a few young players knocking on the door.
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I think their main problem is the lack of pace and the lack of quality wingers. They still tried to rely on an injured, old, way past his prime Perišić.
Šutalo is usually a very good defender but he was bad in this Euro. Pongračić and Erlić are good enough back ups. Someone mentioned we needed experience this time around too in defense and I actually agree. Usually Gvardiol likes to roam forward and make runs but he didnt do that this time due to calamity in the back and generally he had a bad tournament too. Its not an excuse, who's he playing with but maybe some experience would help, if anything yesterday. Vida if he was fit would come on and take the red if needed long before Italian goal. As for midfield we need a rebuild quick, Brozović isnt playing a serious football anymore and his out of football not such a healthy life is taking its toll. Young Sučić is really talented player who showed in this Euro he has waht it takes to take the reigns. Also there are young Jakić and More mids who should be introduced. Real problem is a forward line. Not really that much talent or quality to step in.
Thing is we had wingers in this Euro yet Dalić refused to use them. Pjaca didnt see a minute, nor did Marco Pašalić and Ivanušec got 30 minutes yesterday in midfield.
Perišić is not the same player anymore after the injury, yet he was used more than he should be. Dalić is too hung up to old players.
It’s not a guarantee so it’s pointless thinking of it as that linear, but it is a needed step. Exposure and representation is a needed starting point, unfortunately Greek domestic football is horribly managed, ultras running riot, corruption, poor quality, alongside the country being very poor since the financial crash. The football associations need to take advantage of the situation with a long term plan also.
I think this is a discussion that can go a lot deeper, I find it interesting. Ultimately, money will always find a way of plugging the gaps.
How much money is in qualifying for the Euros? That's a genuine question, as I was always under the impression that there wasn't much money in international football, compared to top level club football.
As I see it (and I could be wrong), the previous tournament expansions haven't really done much to improve the quality of the "weaker" nations, it just means they qualify with a bit more frequency and the early rounds become a bit more of a formality for the better teams.
Generally speaking, bar a golden generation or a freak underdog run, the African, Asian and North American nations are still nowhere near being genuine contenders for a World Cup, the South American nations not Argentina and Brazil are still noticeably behind them, and the European nations not France, Germany and Spain are a noticeable step behind them.
I just don't see how the likes of Georgia or Scotland qualifying for the Euros is going to make much of a difference to the long-term footballing prospects of those nations. It's just a nice thing for the fans at the time.
Not really. Tactically better I mean. What we were was a great team in the form of its life. Spain battered us from pillar to post for 120 minutes and for all the territorial dominance in the final, we scored a somewhat lucky goal off a set piece and otherwise never really threatened to score. Mostly we were good at pinning back an England team that was quite comfortable defending a lead deep in their half, with good reason. We needed extra time and luck against Austria, and we got away with the usual Lukaku "HOW CAN YOU MISS THAT?!?!?" against Belgium
We do now as well, doesn't look good so far
Then finished dead last in a group with New Zealand, Slovakia and Paraguay in 2010.
As for Croatia being unlucky, eh I dunno that I agree honestly. Unlucky with the ref giving 8 minutes of injury time maybe, but then they'd been lucky with the penalty in turn. And outside the penalty and subsequent goal(which were essentially the same play) they offered nothing. Absolutely nothing. We played poorly until their goal, but we still were the better team throughout that game honestly
Maybe not boring but not so entertaining ... it was intense though.After Brasil Italy is second along with Germany in international football.
I agree about the game, we were unlucky but overall we had a bad tournament. Although I dont agree the game was boring.
I knew we would struggle, and you almost won .... I feel for you because, yes, I think that long injury time was meh
Croatia seems to always make us struggle very much, and you had a long history of great players, from Davor Suker to Alen Boksic and Modric.
We were unlucky to end up in this group .... don't worry though, we will catch up with you soon. If we somehow manage to beat Switzerland, we will lose at quarter finals anyway.
It's true Spain missed a lot of chances, and there was a bit of luck involved. With that I agree.
We are allowed to get lucky a bit ....
Italy has been, traditionally, one of the unluckiest teams in international football.
Below are only some examples.
IF Italy had won the 1994 WC final PK shotout, we would have more WC than Brazil
IF Italy had won 1990 WC semifinal PK shotout, we would have reached the 1990 final, and could have made Germany have one less WC (and we one more)
IF Italy had won the 1998 WC quarter final PK shotout, we would have reached the semifinal in 1998 (vs Croatia, that time too).
IF we had not conceeded a last minute goal in 2000 EURO final vs France, France would have never even had a chance to do an extra time Golden goal.
Consider those episodes happened in one of our best eras. Now imagine losing to PKs in three conseucitve WCs, followed by a 2000 Euro final loss to Golden Goal.
Following those, we met South Korea (and you must also know something about it and how sketchy they were) in 2002.
In 2004, we lost in group stages by goal difference.
But, if we went by IF and BUT, we would have to rewrite the entire football history, and a couple better PK shotouts may have meant 2 more WCs for us.
If we need to count our consecutive losses and our traditional unluck .... I guess Spain has very little to recriminate.
Losses happen, and we know a lot about it.
That's why I am happy to stop at no IF and no BUT, and happily take our 4 WC and CL wins with multiple teams.
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Smaller countries have their peak when a golden generation (a number of talented players in the same window) arises, then reverting to mediocre or decent. Hats off to them, Croatia did even better than a normal peak! And yes, they were extremely unlucky yesterday, still considering they are waaaay past their best years. Commiserations, folks… this is football, a low-scoring game, as such almost unpredictable and small margins in one-off games.
How was penalty lucky, dont understand?
You're right about the rest. We showed some things in spurrs but not nearly enough, especially given the quality of the team.
If anything the record of never losing to you lot is still intact.Maybe not boring but not so entertaining ... it was intense though.
I knew we would struggle, and you almost won .... I feel for you because, yes, I think that long injury time was meh
Croatia seems to always make us struggle very much, and you had a long history of great players, from Davor Suker to Alen Boksic and Modric.
We were unlucky to end up in this group .... don't worry though, we will catch up with you soon. If we somehow manage to beat Switzerland, we will lose at quarter finals anyway.
On the other side of the medal we still havent won in Germany.In 2006 we had a defeat and 2 draws, just like this time around.
Yeah, it will be interesting what will happen now. I dont expect a big fall altough Modrić will probably retire but there may be some fall nevertheless. We were too dependant on Modrić and Dalić didnt make plans for his departure, he squeezed that midfield to that last drop.
It was a close-your-eyes-and-hope shot and it hit an outstretched arm. Hence lucky
You did play well in spurts in the previous two games and actually createe quite a bit against both Spain and Albania, so it was surprising how little threat you offered yesterday
Dont agree really, it wasnt a ball to the hand if you mean that.
In 1st half a plan was not to score really cause in first 2 games we conceded first and it affected us. I'm not sure how good of a plan that was cause you had at least 2 good chances. In the 2nd half we opened up and were more dangerous. But all in all we showed too little. Strange thing is our probably best game was vs Spain in which we lost 3-0. Albania was crucial, win that one and we would be basically through before Italy game. But no we conceded in the dying moments only to do that again yesterday. That's simply abysmal and we didnt deserve to go through.
I didn't say or imply that Italy's win at the Euros was a fluke or that it was "simply due to chance". I was saying that to be successful in international football these days, you don't need one of the best managers in the world, or a squad full of world class players and quality subs on top of that.
Almost all handball penalties are lucky. It was a correct decision, but terrible rule
I mean the fact that that shot resulted in a handball was lucky. A stupid, unnecessary mistake by Frattesi. It was a penalty. The dynamic of it was lucky for you
I love to see my wife family cry... But Croatia did well for the country that small. And they have also bad domestic league.1 silver and 2 bronzes since 1992 is not that bad for even bigger teams let alone other ex yu countries.
International managers are basically never among the best in the game these days.
Scaloni is in his first senior managerial role with Argentina, Mancini has basically been in the wind-down phase of his career since City sacked him, Deschamps career highlight before the France job was a pre-PSG Ligue 1 title with Marseille, Santos spent his career bouncing between Portugal and Greece before getting the Portuguese job, Low's club managerial career was nothing special, Del Bosque was semi-retired as Spain manager, same for Lippi as Italy manager and even Rehhagel as Greece manager.
You're also correct about player pools. Even the most stacked squads tend to have at least one or two "problem" positions where they're short of the sort of quality they have elsewhere.
Agreed.
That's what I find interesting in international football is that money plays less of a role. Most teams have strengths and weaknesses to be exploited. Compare that with club football where the same teams compete for silverware every season...
mmm it's not about Calciopoli, and it's not about demography.
Calciopoli was about the head of the pyramid being rotten, and it affected those at the top.
If anything, it's the fact that for too many years the head of the pyramid was rotten, that worsened the problems of the bottom of the pyramid.
Not the fact that the head was finally outed and partially punished.
Also, Serie A stock has fallen since the 90s, but it's still a rich league with good attendance that moves billions.
It's the bottom of the pyramid being neglected that has drained italian football talent.
IE. it's about the football federation, not the Lega Calcio organizing Serie A & B.
There are few public football fields still in good order in small towns.
Recession and lack of interest has made so that grassroot amateurs football clubs all have money problems, are merging and shrinking, have troubles paying competent staff to work with kids...
It's also getting harder and harder to make a decent living playing in lower leagues (up to Serie B).
So for young prospects it's either go big or go home pretty soon in their road to professional football.
Also, in Italy, just as like everywhere in Europe, football has to compete with way more things for kids interest, from other sports that once were niche, to other extracurricular activities and other leisures.
Down here, other sports always knew that they had to promote themselves, football always thought there was no need, I mean, all kids played football in the streets, and only those that were bad at it tried other sports and pastimes.
Today is different and Italian football slept on that.
Finally, demography ain't the issue.
No doubt that Italy is no country for young men... it's just that, even with ultra low natality, we are a country of 60 millions and we always have, at any given time, more kids than Spain, Holland, Belgium or whatnot.
We shouldn't suck so much.
One big issue with demography, is that Italy had not much immigration until late 90s, and has struggled a lot with proper integration of migrants since then. So not many children of first gen immigrants have the chance to play football seriously in their youth.
That is another thing that is deservedly biting us in the ass nowadyas.
That's also why it's more fun, at least to me .... the level of unpredictability makes it a whole lot more enjoyable.
Good post
Add to that, cultural/social shifts, the impact of videogames and social media on our youths moving them away from football, and poor coaching at youth levels.
And then there's also just an element of bad luck/poor generation. Chiesa devastated the last Euros, went back to Juventus only to struggle with his role/position with Allegri and then did his ACL, never managed to kick on. Zaniolo looked like one of the biggest talents in the sport, did both ACL's by 21 and has struggled to stay fit. Verratti is 32, should still be leading light of our midfield as he was 3 years ago, instead he fecked off to Qatar and was dropped from the NT. Pellegrini looked like another potentially great player who has been hobbled by injuries his whole career...
And this team really isn't as bad as it played anyways. What it is, is relatively new, coming in low on confidence after failing to qualify for the last WC(which really was an accident, not a lack of quality) and with Mancini leaving the way he did, and quite brittle. 10 minutes in Spain had disintegrated the few cornerstones of the team's belief, and with it all of their confidence. The rest of the game was a training session, we weren't mentally present anymore. And that carried over to the Croatia game. The encouraging thing is against both Albania and Croatia, the team actually had a big reaction after going down and played some good football, which is fully capable of. This isn't a Euro winner like 3 years ago, but it is a team that should make the QF and give England everything they can handle
Damn I feel for Croatia. Conceding right at the death goals in their last two matches, 98th minute and a 95th minute goals. That must have hurt. But if you can't even beat Albania, you really don't deserve to qualify from the group. Sigh.
Oh yes, I agree.
Eh, this team really isn't as bad as it played... Well of course on a scale from 1 to 55, best to worst European NT, we still grade pretty high =D
It's just that the lack of depth in most roles compared to the big nations that were our peers just 20 years ago is rather astonishing.
Chiesa Zaniolo and Verratti may have been better than they ended up being but each of them is like the one single guy with top-level potential that we produced in each of their roles in a decade. That's rather meh, and unprecedented for us.
I think Italy being bad is overplayed somewhat. Sure, this team is not the same as some past brilliant Italian sides, even as good as the 2021 one but its still a solid team which can play some good football. Plus they have a great coach in Spalletti. Against Croatia they created some good chances and didnt let go up until the end which showed they have confidence in themselves.
I'm returning to this post because it struck me as particularly foolish when I first read it almost a week ago. It's representative of the misguided "how many players from x team would get into our team" mentality. Switzerland played like a cohesive unit and deserved to knock you out. Italy might have had bigger names on paper, but they lacked a team game, tactics, technique, organization, and grit. Especially in the last 15 minutes, they were just passing the ball between the center-backs—what were they thinking?
You don't need 11 world-class players to win a match; you need at least a minimum of ideas and organization (like Austria and Switzerland). Italy showed no identity and reminded me of the inglorious times of Ventura. Must thank Donnaruma for not conceding 15 in this tournament.