David Gill Transfer warchest v2012

Tevez is a big mercenary but we're hardly saints. I mean we're talking about a club who spend 7m on some random guy in Portugal and who can turn our top scorer to 4th choice striker in less then few months.

I think that the truth is somehow in between.

a) SAF wanted Berba
b) Shitty's interest inflated the price
c) SAF couldn't sign both Tevez AND Berba because of financial restrictions
d) he opted for Berba
e) Tevez engineered a deal with Shitty
f) When it was evident that Ronaldo was leaving, SAF tried to sign him up but it was too late.
 
devilish said:
We're not a flea market but a football club. Players like Tosic, Diouf etc were a flop irrespective whether we ended up breakeven or what they did somewhere else. BTW if you remove your red tinted glasses you'll notice that Bebe was actually a bad signing too.

As I said good players/bad players come in all shape and forms. Don't forget that some of our finest legends were, in fact, either British transfer record buyings (Law, Robson, Cole etc) or club record signings (ex Ruud). We also broke the defense world record signing twice with Stam and Rio. Do we regret that? I don't know what you think but I'd rather have 1 Cristiano Ronaldo (sold to Real for 80m) then 11 Bebes.

As stated before good/bad players come in all shape and forms and all strategies (value + big players only) have its strengths and weaknesses. That's why one must diversify between one strategy and another. In my opinion a club should normally use the former to boost the reserves while use the latter to address first team weaknesses which keep on persisting despite all efforts made (Ex our CM).
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And how much did we buy Ronaldo for? Tosic, Anderson and any number of other young players could easily have turned into one of the best players in the world, but they didn't, it's a fecking lottery for a manager with these things.
All the scouts in the world aren't going to get it right all the time, not even most of the time in alot of cases. People don't remember the Tosic's, with small loss all round and little harm done. They remember the Verons, they're the ones that heavily damage us financially.
For every Sneijder and Van Der Vaart that's gone on the cheap, there's been 10 similar players who have been a complete flop.

You're argument is completely pointless and all based on hindsight, essentially crying that we didn't sign x and y player.
 
devilish said:
We're not a flea market but a football club. Players like Tosic, Diouf etc were a flop irrespective whether we ended up breakeven or what they did somewhere else. BTW if you remove your red tinted glasses you'll notice that Bebe was actually a bad signing too.
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I've removed my red tinted glasses when it comes to bebe and looking through my coaching glasses. You can't just turn the likes of Bebe into a good footballer over night. His lack of suitable coaching through junior ranks has put him at a disadvantage compared to other players at his age, but his qualities as a player, IE 'those that I stated' show that there is an enormous amount of potential to polish his skills and turn him into a half decent footballer. Not only does he have a good attitude but he's also got a good skill set, it just requires patience and work.
 
mariachi-19 said:
I've removed my red tinted glasses when it comes to bebe and looking through my coaching glasses. You can't just turn the likes of Bebe into a good footballer over night. His lack of suitable coaching through junior ranks has put him at a disadvantage compared to other players at his age, but his qualities as a player, IE 'those that I stated' show that there is an enormous amount of potential to polish his skills and turn him into a half decent footballer. Not only does he have a good attitude but he's also got a good skill set, it just requires patience and work.
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Sorry gaffer but 7m for such a raw (and a bit shit) 'player' is far too much. No wonder why we're getting investigated and no wonder why everyone is laughing at us regarding this deal.
 
Zen86 said:
And how much did we buy Ronaldo for? Tosic, Anderson and any number of other young players could easily have turned into one of the best players in the world, but they didn't, it's a fecking lottery for a manager with these things.
All the scouts in the world aren't going to get it right all the time, not even most of the time in alot of cases. People don't remember the Tosic's, with small loss all round and little harm done. They remember the Verons, they're the ones that heavily damage us financially.
For every Sneijder and Van Der Vaart that's gone on the cheap, there's been 10 similar players who have been a complete flop.

You're argument is completely pointless and all based on hindsight, essentially crying that we didn't sign x and y player.
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Please do go and re-read my post because we're basically saying the same things.

And anyone thinking that Tosic could have ended up like Ronaldo is deluded at best. An 18 yr old Ronaldo was much better then Tosic.
 
devilish said:
Sorry gaffer but 7m for such a raw (and a bit shit) 'player' is far too much.
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Nah but you'd happily wank your way on spending 40 million on, Sneijder or Nasri. Silly fecking money for two players that wouldn't offer all that much to our side at all. Ones a perma crock and the other is one of the most overrated players in football. 7m maybe too much for Bebe but I bet you if we do cut our loses, it will be at a much more marginal rate then how much we're going to lose on Berbatov.
 
mariachi-19 said:
Nah but you'd happily wank your way on spending 40 million on, Sneijder or Nasri. Silly fecking money for two players that wouldn't offer all that much to our side at all. Ones a perma crock and the other is one of the most overrated players in football. 7m maybe too much for Bebe but I bet you if we do cut our loses, it will be at a much more marginal rate then how much we're going to lose on Berbatov.
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We're have I said that? Were Sneijder or Nasri signed by Inter or Shitty for 40m in the first place?

Ones a perma crock and the other is one of the most overrated players in football.
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Well, at least they are football players.
 
devilish said:
Sorry gaffer but 7m for such a raw (and a bit shit) 'player' is far too much. No wonder why we're getting investigated and no wonder why everyone is laughing at us regarding this deal.
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Who the feck is laughing at us regarding the deal?

Is it Liverpool? Who just spent 35 million on Andy Carroll and 20 million on a winger who hasn't got a goal or assist in the league all season?

Is it Chelsea? Who've signed a 16 million pound striker who hasn't scored all season and they're looking to loan out now? Or the Chelsea who spent 50 million on a striker whose been useless for them

Maybe it's Arsenal who spent 3 million on Park, and in the last few transfer windows have bought in such massive success stories such as Chamakh, Gervinho and Mertesacker.

Maybe it's Man City who have spent about 25 million on Dzeko, 22 million on Balliotelli, 25 million on Adabayor, 18 million on Santa Cruz, 25 million on Tevez, 19 million on Jo, 32 million on Robinho, 14 million on Bellamy and still are in the market for a striker.

Everyone around us has spunked away more money on shite than us in recent years. Who gives a shit if we bought Tosic, he wasn't good enough and we moved him on for the same money we sold him for, in the last few years we've bought players like Da Gea, Smalling, Hernandez and Valencia who will go on to be some of the best transfers in the Premier Leagues history.
 
mariachi-19 said:
I've removed my red tinted glasses when it comes to bebe and looking through my coaching glasses. You can't just turn the likes of Bebe into a good footballer over night. His lack of suitable coaching through junior ranks has put him at a disadvantage compared to other players at his age, but his qualities as a player, IE 'those that I stated' show that there is an enormous amount of potential to polish his skills and turn him into a half decent footballer. Not only does he have a good attitude but he's also got a good skill set, it just requires patience and work.
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This is the player that was sat on our bench with his headphones on and the same player that was banished from the Bestikas squad in April for breaking a curfew and going out partying!

Where exactly did you get your coaching glasses from?

Manchester United are not in the market for 'half decent' footballers.
 
Does anyone really have any idea how good or bad Gill is at his job? For all we know he could be a genius that has kept our financials in check, whilst also keeping us competitive on the pitch; or he could be a Glazer puppet that is out of his depth and has cocked up transfers that Fergie has told him to get sorted.

There are probably only 4-5 people that actually know, none of which post here. Meaning acrebo's assertion could be just as moronic as Will Absolute's. Hell it wouldn't be the first or last time a guy at the top of a huge profitable organisation was an total idiot.
 
I think our main problem is that our squad depth is basically the young (and inconsistent to an extent) players who we base our 'value' policy around. We are never going to fill our 25 man squad with premium players in the way City does. Therefore when injuries hit us we never know what we are going to get in terms of performances from the young lads, whilst City can just shove a proven talent in there and keep the momentum (or that is how it is perceived - the points total of both sides suggests otherwise)
 
devilish said:
Please do go and re-read my post because we're basically saying the same things.

And anyone thinking that Tosic could have ended up like Ronaldo is deluded at best. An 18 yr old Ronaldo was much better then Tosic.
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Ronaldo was a showpony with a few tricks up his sleave when he came to us, hence why he was relatively cheap. Nobody in a million years thought he would be where he is now.

We made him, it's what we've always done and will continue to do.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
This is the player that was sat on our bench with his headphones on and the same player that was banished from the Bestikas squad in April for breaking a curfew and going out partying!

Where exactly did you get your coaching glasses from?

Manchester United are not in the market for 'half decent' footballers.
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Thats right, no player 'that you know of' has ever sat on the Manchester United bench with headphones except Bebe. Funny thing about music is you don't need to use your eyes to listen to it. Attitude is also more then just off the pitch antics.

Half the players I help coach, are people I wouldn't associate with outside of football but they do the business on the pitch with the right attitude. He has shown he has the right attitude on the pitch by consistently putting the effort in regardless of how many mistakes he makes.

Until he starts missing trainings and shows little respect for anybody like Morrison is when it gets serious and he has serious attitude issues.

Oh and Manchester United are in the market for half decent footballers. Just because they aren't decent yet, doesn't mean they never will be.
 
He wasn't on the bench with his headphones was he? He was in the stands.

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mariachi-19 said:
Thats right, no player 'that you know of' has ever sat on the Manchester United bench with headphones except Bebe. Funny thing about music is you don't need to use your eyes to listen to it. Attitude is also more then just off the pitch antics.

Half the players I help coach, are people I wouldn't associate with outside of football but they do the business on the pitch with the right attitude. He has shown he has the right attitude on the pitch by consistently putting the effort in regardless of how many mistakes he makes.

Until he starts missing trainings and shows little respect for anybody like Morrison is when it gets serious and he has serious attitude issues.

Oh and Manchester United are in the market for half decent footballers. Just because they aren't decent yet, doesn't mean they never will be.
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What level do you coach at?
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
What level do you coach at?
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Virtually semi professional although the players don't get paid due to the fact the competition is not in a major metropolitan center. Costs would spiral out of control and it would become unfeasible due to a lack of sponsorship interest. One of the major drawbacks of living in a country the size of Australia.

In saying that we did just get sponsorship from Aon so all is not lost.

We have players like Bebe. Not fantastic but have the right attitude on the pitch and a skill set that shows potential. They don't play in our first grade side but one of them particularly has shown vast improvement and is quickly making his way up from our 3rd side into the reserve squad.
 
mariachi-19 said:
Virtually semi professional although the players don't get paid due to the fact the competition is not in a major metropolitan center. Costs would spiral out of control and it would become unfeasible due to a lack of sponsorship interest. One of the major drawbacks of living in a country the size of Australia.

In saying that we did just get sponsorship from Aon so all is not lost.

We have players like Bebe. Not fantastic but have the right attitude on the pitch and a skill set that shows potential. They don't play in our first grade side but one of them particularly has shown vast improvement and is quickly making his way up from our 3rd side into the reserve squad.
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1/4 professional isn't the same as a the elite level is it. We are talking about a player making it at world class level. Bebe is not going to be a Manchester United footballer. I will bet you any money that you like on that.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
1/4 professional isn't the same as a the elite level is it. We are talking about a player making it at world class level. Bebe is not going to be a Manchester United footballer. I will bet you any money that you like on that.
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Isn't Bebe already a Manchester United player? Albeit a particularly unimpressive one.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
1/4 professional isn't the same as a the elite level is it. We are talking about a player making it at world class level. Bebe is not going to be a Manchester United footballer. I will bet you any money that you like on that.
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I'll take that bet: £2,500.

It seems I've won a bet!

Bebe signed for Manchester United in 2010 and has made two senior appearances for the club, he's a Manchester United footballer without question.

How would you like to make the payment?
 
ciderman9000000 said:
I'll take that bet: £2,500.

It seems I've won a bet!

Bebe signed for Manchester United in 2010 and has made two senior appearances for the club, he's a Manchester United footballer without question.

How would you like to make the payment?
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OK, by Manchester United footballer I meant a top level player, consistently producing the good in high pressure situations. Not appearing against Wolves (to make it look like we didn't sign him as a pay off but playing so badly that he further fuelled suspicion) and hitting crosses into row Z.

Well done though but I didn't make the offer to you, sorry.
 
I dont know if he is good or bad at his job but I suspect he isn't the greatest negotiator due to the fact we tend to overpay for players and then sell them cheap.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
1/4 professional isn't the same as a the elite level is it. We are talking about a player making it at world class level. Bebe is not going to be a Manchester United footballer. I will bet you any money that you like on that.
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Mate have you actually had a look at most of the monkeys coaching in England? Half of them would struggle to wipe their own arse let alone develop players beyond the level they come to them at. That's not to say I think i'm an expert because I know i'm not and far from it and I know I still have alot to learn, but I believe I can see when a player has potential from a coaching standpoint. That doesn't change from the level that i'm at to a professional level. The hallmarks are always the same, it's just alot quicker and alot more demanding.


And nobody is talking about making a player world class. It's never come into the discussion. Also Bebe is already a Manchester United footballer.


If United didn't think Bebe had potential he'd have gone last summer. Fergie would never wait around for a hopeless lost cause of a player. It's not worth wasting his or his coaches time over. He's lucky that he's part of a club can see potential doesn't give up on it after a handful of underwhelming games.
 
mariachi-19 said:
Mate have you actually had a look at most of the monkeys coaching in England? Half of them would struggle to wipe their own arse let alone develop players beyond the level they come to them at. That's not to say I think i'm an expert because I know i'm not and far from it and I know I still have alot to learn, but I believe I can see when a player has potential from a coaching standpoint. That doesn't change from the level that i'm at to a professional level. The hallmarks are always the same, it's just alot quicker and alot more demanding.


And nobody is talking about making a player world class. It's never come into the discussion. Also Bebe is already a Manchester United footballer.


If United didn't think Bebe had potential he'd have gone last summer. Fergie would never wait around for a hopeless lost cause of a player. It's not worth wasting his or his coaches time over. He's lucky that he's part of a club can see potential doesn't give up on it after a handful of underwhelming games.
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You honestly think that we signed the guy for his potential? We were keeping Mendes sweet and the rewards have been and will continue to be reaped.
 
mariachi-19 said:
The inflated price maybe, but if that were entirely the case, he'd have been shipped out in January 2011.
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The whole deal was so on top that it is being investigated by the Portuguese police anti corruption department! How much more on top would it have been if we had sold him after six months?
 
mariachi-19 said:
I've removed my red tinted glasses when it comes to bebe and looking through my coaching glasses. You can't just turn the likes of Bebe into a good footballer over night. His lack of suitable coaching through junior ranks has put him at a disadvantage compared to other players at his age, but his qualities as a player, IE 'those that I stated' show that there is an enormous amount of potential to polish his skills and turn him into a half decent footballer. Not only does he have a good attitude but he's also got a good skill set, it just requires patience and work.
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:lol: load of fecking bollocks.

He's fecking shite and is never NEVER going to be good enough to play football in the top flight of this country. Let alone Manchester United FFS.

It was a bung. I can't believe people are still talking this sort of shite.
 
devilish said:
Tevez is a big mercenary but we're hardly saints. I mean we're talking about a club who spend 7m on some random guy in Portugal and who can turn our top scorer to 4th choice striker in less then few months.

I think that the truth is somehow in between.

a) SAF wanted Berba
b) Shitty's interest inflated the price
c) SAF couldn't sign both Tevez AND Berba because of financial restrictions
d) he opted for Berba
e) Tevez engineered a deal with Shitty
f) When it was evident that Ronaldo was leaving, SAF tried to sign him up but it was too late.
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That doesn't explain why we didn't sign Tevez in the first year of his loan contract. Our attitude in the second year was a continuation of the first.

It seems fairly clear that City was a last resort for Tevez - he wanted to leave the club almost as soon as he arrived. If he was so interested in cash, why did he repeatedly declare in his first year with us that he was prepared to sign a permanent deal immediately, and money wasn't an issue.

Fergie knew that Ronaldo was leaving from the start of the season. The player had agreed to stay for one more year on condition we let him go if a sufficient offer came from Madrid. It couldn't have been a surprise.

Without wishing to return to David Gill bashing, I've always thought the most likely explanation of our failure to sign Tevez when we had the chance was Gill's desire to show his mettle to the Glazers by knocking a few million off the agreed price.
 
Will Absolute said:
That doesn't explain why we didn't sign Tevez in the first year of his loan contract. Our attitude in the second year was a continuation of the first.

It seems fairly clear that City was a last resort for Tevez - he wanted to leave the club almost as soon as he arrived. If he was so interested in cash, why did he repeatedly declare in his first year with us that he was prepared to sign a permanent deal immediately, and money wasn't an issue.

Fergie knew that Ronaldo was leaving from the start of the season. The player had agreed to stay for one more year on condition we let him go if a sufficient offer came from Madrid. It couldn't have been a surprise.

Without wishing to return to David Gill bashing, I've always thought the most likely explanation of our failure to sign Tevez when we had the chance was Gill's desire to show his mettle to the Glazers by knocking a few million off the agreed price.
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You may misunderstood. My mistake.

2008-2009

A) SAF wanted to sign a striker. He had a set budget.
B) His eyes were set on Berba. If the deal was made quickly maybe he could get him on cheap (relatively speaking) and have some spare change left for Tevez.
C) Shitty stepped in and SAF had to put all the money on Berba despite Tevez wanting to sign.
D) Sleezy Kia start engineering a deal with Shitty

2009-2010

A) Ronaldo leaves United. 80m flow in our transfer kitty
B) SAF decides to sign Tevez. Lets face it, we had just lost our biggest star, Tevez is loved by the fans and 25m for Tevez is VALUE
C) He contacts Tevez but by that time, Tevez had already arranged a good deal with Shitty so he show the gaffer the middle finger

Its all speculation but that's in my opinion what had happened.
 
Zen86 said:
Ronaldo was a showpony with a few tricks up his sleave when he came to us, hence why he was relatively cheap. Nobody in a million years thought he would be where he is now.

We made him, it's what we've always done and will continue to do.
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Ronaldo was rough in the edges but he showed from day 1 that his talent is breathtaking. Im not diminishing our work on him (we thought him tactical awareness and discipline), but you don't teach that skill to a player. You either have that or you don't. There's no chance that the likes of Diouf and Tosic could ever be as good as Ronaldo. If hardwork, training and attitude alone can make you a fantastic player like Ronaldo then the Nev brothers would be at par with Maradona and Pele.
 
devilish said:
B) His eyes were set on Berba. If the deal was made quickly maybe he could get him on cheap (relatively speaking) and have some spare change left for Tevez.
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There was never a way we were getting Berbatov for anything less than twenty something million. The extra few millions didn't prevent the signing of Tevez that summer.

Maybe we missed the trick by not making the deal permanent in the first year. Once that happened, he was never going to stay, his agent made sure of that.
 
Amir said:
There was never a way we were getting Berbatov for anything less than twenty something million. The extra few millions didn't prevent the signing of Tevez that summer.

Maybe we missed the trick by not making the deal permanent in the first year. Once that happened, he was never going to stay, his agent made sure of that.
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Lets say that we would have signed Berba for lets say 20m, leaving 10m to spare. I am sure that the club would sanction an extra 15m for a (then) fan' favorite + one of the biggest names in today's football. We're talking about the same fee we paid for Venky's former boy.

Unfortunately we spent 30m on Berba and spending another 25m on Tevez (ie a total of 55m) on the forward line when we already had Rooney may have been considered by our owners as overkill.
 
I love how some people are quick to say why Bene will never be good enough, after yes played twice. We should sign that lot up and sack lawlor, Ryan and CO.
 
JakeC said:
I love how some people are quick to say why Bene will never be good enough, after yes played twice. We should sign that lot up and sack lawlor, Ryan and CO.
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Who's Bene?
 
JakeC said:
I love how some people are quick to say why Bene will never be good enough, after yes played twice. We should sign that lot up and sack lawlor, Ryan and CO.
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You must be joking. Bebe is clearly not good enough for this club. He was only signed to keep DDG's agent happy.

He is genuinely one of the worst signings we have ever made in terms of ability.
 
mariachi-19 said:
Mate have you actually had a look at most of the monkeys coaching in England? Half of them would struggle to wipe their own arse let alone develop players beyond the level they come to them at. That's not to say I think i'm an expert because I know i'm not and far from it and I know I still have alot to learn, but I believe I can see when a player has potential from a coaching standpoint. That doesn't change from the level that i'm at to a professional level. The hallmarks are always the same, it's just alot quicker and alot more demanding.


And nobody is talking about making a player world class. It's never come into the discussion. Also Bebe is already a Manchester United footballer.


If United didn't think Bebe had potential he'd have gone last summer. Fergie would never wait around for a hopeless lost cause of a player. It's not worth wasting his or his coaches time over. He's lucky that he's part of a club can see potential doesn't give up on it after a handful of underwhelming games.
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Umm. Besiktas can buy bebe at the end of his loan if they so choose at a massive loss. They won't because he's shite.
 
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