[Andycoleno9]

That's opinions of literally numerous different United fans. No one person said the Academy is the sole solution to our problems. But it's rather one of many solutions to our problems and there's strong proof/evidence of that historically and presently.

Also I do agree with many about Gomes being a huge talent which was easy to see and many coaches at United are of the same belief. And no I wouldn't have signed Fernandes for the ridiculous fee SCP wanted.

Look, there is no fan who doesn't want to see player from academy in squad. But we go over the top with that. Without seeing player on highest level( PL) or in best case after few games we think he is next Beckham, Scholes, Neville or whoever.
And our history since class 92 says that we produced only couple of players for our first team( not counting players who left in another clubs because they were not good for us).
Only first team class player in last 25 years that we produced is Rashford. Fletch, O'Shea, McT and Brown were good enough. And that is it. And now we think that lineup:

Henderson
Laird Tuanzebe Maguire Williams
McT Garner
Chong Gomes Rashford
Greenwood.

...will get us results.

 

[roonster09]

That's opinions of literally numerous different United fans. No one person said the Academy is the sole solution to our problems. But it's rather one of many solutions to our problems and there's strong proof/evidence of that historically and presently.

Also I do agree with many about Gomes being a huge talent which was easy to see and many coaches at United are of the same belief. And no I wouldn't have signed Fernandes for the ridiculous fee SCP wanted.

Of course our academy is strong and I would rather trust academy players than signing average players from elsewhere, it's just that some of the posts are extreme, for every position we have one, like the examples I gave.

It is said by numerous fans, don't think I said it was said by single United fan.

 

[roonster09]

Rashford isn't a good dribbler in tight spaces I still believe that. And your post is responding to someone who criticised him no end.

I didn't get this.

Rashford is miles better than Chong ever was, from the day he made his debut. And before you ask, yes I watched Chong enough times for reserves.

 

[Adnan]

Of course our academy is strong and I would rather trust academy players than signing average players from elsewhere, it's just that some of the posts are extreme, for every position we have one, like the examples I gave.

But you're gonna get varying degrees of opinions on a forum that is probably the best there is in the world due to the volume of numbers. I mean people wanted to sell C Ronaldo at 19/20 years of age and sign Aaron Lennon. But I do think Academy players like Gomes are getting unnecessary criticism.

 

[roonster09]

But you're gonna get varying degrees of opinions on a forum that is probably the best there is in the world due to the volume of numbers. I mean people wanted to sell C Ronaldo at 19/20 years of age and sign Aaron Lennon. But I do think Academy players like Gomes are getting unnecessary criticism.

Yes, that's why I made that post and you asked for examples. I'm not sure on what we are discussing anymore.

Agree with Gomes part or any young player in general. Some of the criticism is just weird, young players are expected to make impact from the word go which doesn't make any sense.

 

[Adnan]

I didn't get this.

Rashford is miles better than Chong ever was, from the day he made his debut. And before you ask, yes I watched Chong enough times for reserves.

I think you'll find I specifically pointed to Rashford not being a particularly good dribbler in tight spaces. Chong is still young and can still become a very good player potentially imo even if the forum disagrees. A move to a club like Ajax or PSV could be the making of him. Do you disagree?

 

[DoomSlayer]

So Henderson is seen as just some lad from the academy? He's done fantastically well for Sheffield, why not give De Gea competition? We've made him the best paid GK in the world, is it too much to expect him being consistent?

I have huge respect and admiration for what DDG has done for the club, but we can't continue losing points when he isn't performing as well as he has before, that's just my opinion.

 

[roonster09]

I think you'll find I specifically pointed to Rashford not being a particularly good dribbler in tight spaces. Chong is still young and can still become a very good player potentially imo even if the forum disagrees. A move to a club like Ajax or PSV could be the making of him. Do you disagree?

I was asking about this "And your post is responding to someone who criticised him no end. " What does that mean, that you criticized Rashford a lot or @Andycoleno9 did?

Chong might become very good player, he might become even the next Messi. Point is he wasn't better dribbler and better player than Rashford when you argued he was.

If we have to compare the players then there is not a single attribute where Chong is better than Rashford, not even dribbling in tight spaces going by what they have showed for first team.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Should he have done better from the corner? Yes.

Was it a foul? Absolutely yes.

I have no idea what VAR were looking at to deem that not worthy of a foul.

 

[Adnan]

I was asking about this "And your post is responding to someone who criticised him no end. " What does that mean, that you criticized Rashford a lot or @Andycoleno9 did?

Chong might become very good player, he might become even the next Messi. Point is he wasn't better dribbler and better player than Rashford when you argued he was.

If we have to compare the players then there is not a single attribute where Chong is better than Rashford, not even dribbling in tight spaces going by what they have showed for first team.

Yes is the answer to your question if i'm not mistaken.

Rashford has never been a good dribbler but more someone who would attack space and I've watched him up close since he was 15. I still don't believe he's a good dribbler. But as a wing forward he's fine.

Well going by what they've done at first team level would be shifting the goal posts because the original discussion was at youth level and Chong at Feyenoord and United looks/looked a better dribbler. Was considered the biggest talent in his age group as a winger in the Netherlands.

 

[roonster09]

Yes is the answer to your question if i'm not mistaken.

Rashford has never been a good dribbler but more someone who would attack space and I've watched him up close since he was 15. I still don't believe he's a good dribbler. But as a wing forward he's fine.

Well going by what they've done at first team level would be shifting the goal posts because the original discussion was at youth level and Chong at Feyenoord and United looks/looked a better dribbler. Was considered the biggest talent in his age group as a winger in the Netherlands.

Original discussion was Chong the player today (last year) vs Rashford the player today, not how good they were when they played for academy. You repeated many times how Chong has better close control, passing, decision making based on his reserves performance when he showed nothing for first team.

Spoiler: One of the conversation

Yeah, it’s nice when people are optimistic (for a change!) but coming out with stuff like him already being better than Rashford is just bonkers.

You. Better close control, vision, dribbling and decision-making.

Yes he is better at all them things. Chong would do a much better job on either wing in comparison to Rashford who I've lost count the amount of times he runs the ball out of play or just runs straight into a opposing player and loses the ball. Rashford is a talented player that has potential to improve, nothing more, nothing less..

Spoiler: One more conversation

Chong has even better close control than Rashford and has fantastic vision to go with his fantastic dribbling. His decision making is already better than Rashfords imo.

You are seriously comparing youth teams with senior teams where the game is so much faster and little time to decide?

I'm comparing players with a football at their feet. Close control, passing etc

You also said decision making which depends on the speed of the play and quality of opponents.

It's not like we haven't seen a young player tearing apart youth leagues only to be never seen again or playing for small teams when they make the step up to senior football.

His decision making is a stand out quality for him. Don't think it'll be a bone of contention against even top quality opposition in the future. Just hope Mourinho introduces him gradually into the first team fold.

 

[VeevaVee]

He could’ve done better for the goal but he also made a save that would have made Alisson’s highlight reel and as usual no one talks about it because it was average for him.

 

[Adnan]

Original discussion was Chong the player today (last year) vs Rashford the player today, not how good they were when they played for academy. You repeated many times how Chong has better close control, passing, decision making based on his reserves performance when he showed nothing for first team.

I still believe he's a better dribbler in tight spaces than Rashford. Chong might not have transferred it at first team levet yet but he has the potential to be a very good winger which I don't think Rashford has in the same position due to not having the dribbling from a technical pov. Rashford is more of a forward who will attack space using his pace, hence why I always believed he was a wing forward. I never gave up on Ronaldo at the same age and I won't do the same with Chong regardless of what the forum opinion might be on the player.

 

[Sylar]

Should he have done better from the corner? Yes.

Was it a foul? Absolutely yes.

I have no idea what VAR were looking at to deem that not worthy of a foul.

My thoughts exactly. A foul should be given, especially given how VAR use seems to slow everything down and the frame of the players hand in DeGeas face just as hes about to punch it stops him from doing so.

However, still, WTF DDG? He has goalkeeper protection and jumps out like a flick would end his career. He should be clearing everything out there (if not catching it when its that high). There are a few times a cross into the box he could be claiming or dealing with. Its not even like its past the penalty spot.

 

[roonster09]

I still believe he's a better dribbler in tight spaces than Rashford. Chong might not have transferred it at first team levet yet but he has the potential to be a very good winger which I don't think Rashford has in the same position due to not having the dribbling from a technical pov. Rashford is more of a forward who will attack space using his pace.hence why I always believed he was a wing forward. I never gave up on Ronaldo at the same age and I won't do the same with Chong regardless of what the forum opinion might be on the player.

Chong won't be the fist player or the last player to look good for youth sides and completely fail at senior level. What they show for first team matters, going by what Chong has showed, he is nowhere near Rashford in any attribute. Forget dribbling, he struggles to just run in a straight line without falling.

Well done for not giving up on Ronaldo, it was completely against the popular choice.

 

[Kerry Donaghy]

Now there is De Gea fc also? We have one of the best gk in PL who is still world class shot stopper and because he has that one flaw you want to sell him and give a chance to Henderson?

And why Henderson and not Romero who is good every time when he plays? This narrative young= good for first 11 is becoming ridiculous now. Williams plays two good games; " he needs to be our first choice full back", Tuanzebe plays few games; " he needs to be first choice defender", Gomes without even playing PL game; "he needs to be first choice no 10" and now with Henderson same situation.

You're making it out as if people are reacting because of this one game, we're not, this is happening pretty much every time a cross or set piece comes into our box.
Even as recently as last week it happened with Citys goal but it was such a big win that it got glossed over.
De Gea either just doesn't bother coming out to claim crosses that 90% of other keepers would, or does try, but makes a mess of it like yesterday, on that note, yes, there was slight contact but he never even looked like getting it anyway, he was coming out half hearted, side on and with his eyes closed at the crucial moment. It was an Everton side managed by Duncan Ferguson, surely you go into that game expecting a bit of physicality, if not, then he shouldn't be playing, in fact, I would happily let Duncan Ferguson himself elbow me in the face for £400,000 a week.

If fans can't see how this is repeatedly putting a massive handicap on our ability to keep clean sheets (and therefore win games) every time he plays then those fans are part of the problem too in my opinion.
To be clear, I'm not suggesting for a second that this is our only problem but it is a massive problem and the fact that the majority of our fans are somehow blind to it, makes it an even bigger problem.

Fair enough, he might be a decent shot stopper (which is also highly debatable nowadays) but there is so much more to goalkeeping than shot-stopping, especially in the premier league because it's traditionally a lot more physical, and being a decent shot stopper doesn't compensate for being so bad at all the other aspects.

It's the equivalent of making Andy Carroll the highest paid striker in the world because he's decent at headers and then wondering why your club is becoming a laughing stock.

The most frustrating thing is that it doesn't really mater now anyway because we were stupid enough to give him that ridiculous contract so we're stuck with him.
I tried repeatedly to point this out before the contract and got berated on here for having a personal vendetta against the lad and constantly told that once he signed the new contract everything will be fine again, I'm sorry but you people were wrong (and I honestly wish I was the one that was wrong).

 

[Vault Dweller]

My thoughts exactly. A foul should be given, especially given how VAR use seems to slow everything down and the frame of the players hand in DeGeas face just as hes about to punch it stops him from doing so.

However, still, WTF DDG? He has goalkeeper protection and jumps out like a flick would end his career. He should be clearing everything out there (if not catching it when its that high). There are a few times a cross into the box he could be claiming or dealing with. Its not even like its past the penalty spot.

Agreed. I can't understand how someone has reviewed that and come to the conclusion that it is not a foul. Crazy.

Agreed as well he has to be doing better in the air. I never think he gets enough of a running start? In the sense that he seems to take a couple of steps and jumps, instead of running fully and jumping to punch the ball, which would help him clear / catch the ball.

 

[roonster09]

You're making it out as if people are reacting because of this one game, we're not, this is happening pretty much every time a cross or set piece comes into our box.
Even as recently as last week it happened with Citys goal but it was such a big win that it got glossed over.
De Gea either just doesn't bother coming out to claim crosses that 90% of other keepers would, or does try, but makes a mess of it like yesterday, on that note, yes, there was slight contact but he never even looked like getting it anyway, he was coming out half hearted, side on and with his eyes closed at the crucial moment. It was an Everton side managed by Duncan Ferguson, surely you go into that game expecting a bit of physicality, if not, then he shouldn't be playing, in fact, I would happily let Duncan Ferguson himself elbow me in the face for £400,000 a week.

If fans can't see how this is repeatedly putting a massive handicap on our ability to keep clean sheets (and therefore win games) every time he plays then those fans are part of the problem too in my opinion.
To be clear, I'm not suggesting for a second that this is our only problem but it is a massive problem and the fact that the majority of our fans are somehow blind to it, makes it an even bigger problem.

Fair enough, he might be a decent shot stopper (which is also highly debatable nowadays) but there is so much more to goalkeeping than shot-stopping, especially in the premier league because it's traditionally a lot more physical, and being a decent shot stopper doesn't compensate for being so bad at all the other aspects.

It's the equivalent of making Andy Carroll the highest paid striker in the world because he's decent at headers and then wondering why your club is becoming a laughing stock.

The most frustrating thing is that it doesn't really mater now anyway because we were stupid enough to give him that ridiculous contract so we're stuck with him.
I tried repeatedly to point this out before the contract and got berated on here for having a personal vendetta against the lad and constantly told that once he signed the new contract everything will be fine again, I'm sorry but you people were wrong (and I honestly wish I was the one that was wrong).

 

[Kerry Donaghy]

He could’ve done better for the goal but he also made a save that would have made Alisson’s highlight reel and as usual no one talks about it because it was average for him.

Please don't tell me me your talking about the save from Iwobi with about ten minutes to go because, for one, I could have saved that, and, for two, it was going wide anyway.

This is part of the reason why he ever became so overrated in the first place, you're over-hyping half decent saves and totally ignoring massive flaws.

 

[BIGbadBOO4]

Absolutely nothing in the media about the var decision. I cannot believe it was looked at and no foul was given. Yeah DDG was not strong coming out but the FA need to have a word with whoever was in charge yesterday. I expect players challenging keepers all the time now. We need to be more like the rest of the teams by complaining and rolling around. Only way to get decisions.

 

[Adnan]

Chong won't be the fist player or the last player to look good for youth sides and completely fail at senior level. What they show for first team matters, going by what Chong has showed, he is nowhere near Rashford in any attribute. Forget dribbling, he struggles to just run in a straight line without falling.

Well done for not giving up on Ronaldo, it was completely against the popular choice.

Give me some examples of the great dribbling ability of Rashford? He isn't blessed in that department technically and it's not hard to see. Chong might not live up to expectations and might fall by the way side but at youth level he has shown a higher level of technical capability dribbling wise in comparison. One game in particular where the ground was covered in snow against Liverpool where I was in attendance was a showcase of the particular trait from a technical pov and even the Liverpool coach described his ability to dribble as outstanding at the end of the game.

 

[Kerry Donaghy]

Slight exaggeration for comic effect and also because I'm angry but the point still stands.

Making someone the highest paid player in the world in their position because they're really good at one aspect of it (as I said, even that's debatable) despite being absolutely woeful at everything else is asking for trouble, no?

 

[Kerry Donaghy]

Absolutely nothing in the media about the var decision. I cannot believe it was looked at and no foul was given. Yeah DDG was not strong coming out but the FA need to have a word with whoever was in charge yesterday. I expect players challenging keepers all the time now. We need to be more like the rest of the teams by complaining and rolling around. Only way to get decisions.

You slow it down and its going to look worse, any half decent keeper with a bit of courage about them is punching that clear all day long.

Anyway, the bigger issue is the fact that this is not a one off, it's costing us goals and points all the time and our response is to reward that player with a ridiculous contract.
As I said, is it any wonder we're the laughing stock of world football.

 

[roonster09]

Give me some examples of the great dribbling ability of Rashford? He isn't blessed in that department technically and it's not hard to see. Chong might not live up to expectations and might fall by the way side but at youth level he has shown a higher level of technical capability dribbling wise in comparison. One game in particular where the ground was covered in snow against Liverpool where I was in attendance was a showcase of the particular trait from a technical pov and even the Liverpool coach described his ability to dribble as outstanding at the end of the game.

Assist vs Bournemouth, chance vs Brighton this season, last season goal vs Brighton, 2017-18 assist vs Crystal palace, this season penalty win vs Spurs, penalty win vs City, last season assist vs Southampton, bunch of goals for England, these are just the dribbles which resulted in end products.

Again what Chong has done at junior level doesn't matter. It's what they show for first team that really matters. Thats why he was never better than Rashford at anything. I mean he didn't even show any potential for first team, looked like fish out of water.

 

[Adnan]

Assist vs Bournemouth, chance vs Brighton this season, last season goal vs Brighton, 2017-18 assist vs Crystal palace, this season penalty win vs Spurs, penalty win vs City, last season assist vs Southampton, these are just the dribbles which resulted in end products.

Again what Chong has done at junior level doesn't matter. It's what they show for first team that really matters. Thats why he was never better than Rashford at anything. I mean he didn't even show any potential for first team, looked like fish out of water.

Assist v Bournemouth last season?

 

[roonster09]

Assist v Bournemouth last season?

Yes, when he beat couple of players and played a lovely cross to Pogba.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

The more I see it the more stupid it is that a foul wasn't given.

Definitely a foul and I'm a fan of DeGea but he is a bit of a pussy. Instead of facing the player he's got his back turned because he's afraid of being hit. Courage isn't one of his strong points.

 

[Adnan]

Yes, when he beat couple of players and played a lovely cross to Pogba.

That was a good piece of skill (flip flap) which opened up space but it was more of a exception than the norm.

I'm also done here and sorry for derailing the thread.

 

[roonster09]

That was a good piece of skill (flip flap) which opened up space but it was more of a exception than the norm.

I'm also done here and sorry for derailing the thread.

i have given you multiple examples and that's just from top of my head, I didn't even mention the dribble from left wing to the box against Brighton (there were 2, one was flip flap and other was taking on multiple players and then accelerating)

There are so many examples, i mean searching Rashford dribble on youtube would answer that.

 

[Adnan]

i have given you multiple examples and that's just from top of my head, I didn't even mention the dribble from left wing to the box against Brighton (there were 2, one was flip flap and other was taking on multiple players and then accelerating)

There are so many examples, i mean searching Rashford dribble on youtube would answer that.

You could've posted the vids instead and pointed out the dribbles which I could've responded to. To see what your definition of good dribbling is, but it doesn't matter now.

 

[roonster09]

You could've posted the vids instead and pointed out the dribbles which I could've responded to. To see what your definition of good dribbling is, but it doesn't matter now.

I have given you specific examples, incident and against which team.

And no, I didn't search for those dribbles. Those were very good ones that most ManUtd fans would remember.

I said you can just search on youtube and you will get plenty more, if I did I would have posted it here.

 

[Adnan]

I have given you specific examples, incident and against which team.

And no, I didn't search for those dribbles. Those were very good ones that most ManUtd fans would remember.

I said you can just search on youtube and you will get plenty more, if I did I would have posted it here.

I know what you said and i've watched every game we've played with Rashford. So was expecting you to provide me with video evidence of what your definition of good dribbling was. But it's fine, because I think I know.

 

[roonster09]

I know what you said and i've watched every game we've played with Rashford. So was expecting you to provide me with video evidence of what your definition of good dribbling was. But it's fine, because I think I know.

So were those good dribbles with his technical skill on display or just kick and rush dribble?

Or did it answer your first question "Give me some examples of the great dribbling ability of Rashford? "

 

[Snuffkin]

Definitely a foul and I'm a fan of DeGea but he is a bit of a pussy. Instead of facing the player he's got his back turned because he's afraid of being hit. Courage isn't one of his strong points.

he should have gone down wailing holding his face at the merest touch

 

[Adnan]

So were those good dribbles with his technical skill on display or just kick and rush dribble?

Or did it answer your first question "Give me some examples of the great dribbling ability of Rashford? "

Which dribbles? I'm still waiting for you to provide a video of his amazing dribbling ability. I'm in Manchester City centre right now shopping so take your time .

 

[roonster09]

Which dribbles? I'm still waiting for you to provide a video of his amazing dribbling ability. I'm in Manchester City centre right now shopping so take your time .

fecking hell, ok yeah happy shopping. *facepalm*

 

[VeevaVee]

Please don't tell me me your talking about the save from Iwobi with about ten minutes to go because, for one, I could have saved that, and, for two, it was going wide anyway.

This is part of the reason why he ever became so overrated in the first place, you're over-hyping half decent saves and totally ignoring massive flaws.

Overrated?
Some here would complain about Messi if he hit a few shots wide.

I don’t know if it was that shot but it wasn’t one that was going wide so I assume not.
I also never said it was the best save in the world. I said it would make Alisson’s highlight reel, which you can find in the Liverpool thread from last week.

 

[Adnan]

fecking hell, ok yeah happy shopping. *facepalm*

Thanks, it's a lovely cold day here..

 

[Forevergiggs1]

he should have gone down wailing holding his face at the merest touch

Doesn't even néed to do that. If he attacks the ball like he should of done Calvet Lewin would of automatically run into him and it would of been a lot clearer foul. If that was Pickford he would of taken the ball the man and whoever else was around him and still would of had a foul called in his favour.

 

[VeevaVee]

I’m starting to think that if Scholes was about now all some would focus on is his tackling.