Danny Welbeck to Sunderland (Loan Watch)

Quick look at the chalkboard shows he has had 100% pass completion in three out of his last four games and misplaced 2 passes out of his last 72. That is fecking impressive, I've never seen a winger/front man with such impressive statistics. His use and retention of the ball has been absolutely top quality.

I'm using stats because I just can't understand why other people aren't seeing what I'm seeing!
 
Did you guys know, according to wikipedia Alan Shearer scored 5 in 35 as a 20-ish old for Southampton? Dwight Yorke had 6 in 36 for aston Villa as a 23 year old. Mark Hughes, 5 in 37 as a 24? year old. Diego Forlan took 30 games to score his first goal for us.
 
Fiskey said:
Add to that why do people on here always seem to rate Sturridge higher, Welbeck plays over him for the u21s. 100% pass completion again today as well.

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100% pass completion doesn't really mean that much. He's an attacking player and as yet he as produced the sum total of zero for Sunderland - no goals and no assists.

I see the talent in him and want him to succeed, but you seem to be blinded a bit by his performances as you obviously rate him so highly.

He is only getting starts ahead of Sturridge for the U21s because they don't see Sturridge being able to play the target role in the absence of Andy Carroll.

I can understand why Sunderland fans would be frustrated with him and he'll be scapegoated being a loanee, especially one from United. He has to step it up the next few weeks and start producing some end product or the fans will turn on him and he'll find himself out of the side.

Re Cleverley, he got injured. He's only just coming back now hence why he hasn't been involved so much. Anyway, he's irrelevant to this discussion.
 
Fiskey said:
Quick look at the chalkboard shows he has had 100% pass completion in three out of his last four games and misplaced 2 passes out of his last 72. That is fecking impressive, I've never seen a winger/front man with such impressive statistics. His use and retention of the ball has been absolutely top quality.

I'm using stats because I just can't understand why other people aren't seeing what I'm seeing!
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"But that's the trouble with potential. People don't identify potential. They're very poor at it."

Sir Alex, 10 days ago.
 
Scholesy said:
Anything goes to hype up a United youngster.

"I've never seen a winger/front man with such impressive statistics."
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I never have, they are unbelievable especially in a team like Sunderland. Can't wait to see him back here where the short passing and interchange will be utilised better.

And Scholsey, you should know by know I'm not one to just hype any youngster, I've agreed with you about Macheda and Gibson in the past, its just Welbeck is a bit special, or at least could be.
 
Scholesy said:
Anything goes to hype up a United youngster.

"I've never seen a winger/front man with such impressive statistics."
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Sadly thats true. If his stats were 50% pass completion and someone (probably Scholesy) brought them up to aid him in suggesting he's played poorly, the same people would be saying the stats dont matter.

We had people way overrated the likes of Bardlsey, Eagles and David Jones too. Thats not to say he isnt clearly more talented than they are, but it wouldnt be the first time we made a big deal out of a player and actually he just turns out a decent or good premier league player and nowhere near first team at United level.
 
He has great attributes as we know but I feel sorry for him. He SHOULD be able to do something from the wing but he's not a winger. As great as some strikers are, play them wing and you have to worry about the defensive side of your game just as much as your attacking. It's harder in addition because Sunderland are not that good a team.

At United I think he can get away with it because we're mostly on the front foot but I think at Sunderland you have to be a bit more disciplined. That said i've not watched them so can't say much on that. We all know that in the final third danny is a threat, if it's not happening then something is wrong. It might just be that Sunderland are not the right club for him, even if he's playing a fair bit.
 
Ekeke isn't that normal? Every team wants a kid from the system to make it, one of their own...

We say our kids have potential, Arsenal call theirs World Class before they even make their league debuts...
 
Perhaps I'm banging my head against a brick wall by using these statistics but I think its worth posting the chalkbaord from the Liverpool game. Here again we see 100% pass completion and it shows as I remember the game that they were different types of passes all over the pitch. Yes it could be argued he's been playing conservatively but given the confidence this loan will do for him, I'm sure his fantastic technical ability and physical presence will be of huge use to United next year.

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Ekeke said:
Sadly thats true. If his stats were 50% pass completion and someone (probably Scholesy) brought them up to aid him in suggesting he's played poorly, the same people would be saying the stats dont matter.

We had people way overrated the likes of Bardlsey, Eagles and David Jones too. Thats not to say he isnt clearly more talented than they are, but it wouldnt be the first time we made a big deal out of a player and actually he just turns out a decent or good premier league player and nowhere near first team at United level.
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Bardsleys a poor mans neville, Eagles was always shite and jones wasn't that convincing. One thing people forget is you can big up a player but a year later the club could buy someone who's even better. So it's not a given but at the same time I don't think Sir Alex is looking at this and saying, 'agh he can't make it at United cause he can't do it at sunderland'. It gives him experience and if you have it bad, it toughens you up mentally.

The player we see at Sunderland is not the one we'd see for United. The sunderland fans might rightly be disappointed, but he's a forward. Why don't they play bent on the wing and see if his performances go down the toilet? It's easy for them to blame him and maybe if they supported him it'd give him a boost but by the sounds of it they don't want to do that
 
BTV_is_neutral said:
Ekeke isn't that normal? Every team wants a kid from the system to make it, one of their own...

We say our kids have potential, Arsenal call their World Class before they even make their league debuts...
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How about we all stop being wrong, and just try to put our feelings towards the club to one side for a second? How about we judge a player based on what he's proven against a decent level of opposition (not the reserves) in decent competitions and until they do so, we try to keep calm?

There are some players who have so much potential in their position, and already have certain abilities to a high level which means you can easily see how good they are going to be just given time and experience. The likes of Rafael when he first got a game.

Welbeck isnt one of those. And we're still waiting for him to prove himself at a good level.

He had 5 league matches for us last season according to wiki. He scored once. He's had 8 matches for Sunderland and he's yet to score.

Now he'll come good and score goals in the premier league, I dont think there's any reason to fear that he cant hack it in the top flight. Its just there's nothing to suggest he's going to be above mid-table premier league level for the next however many years. Even if thats the case, he could still go on to be good enough for a top club in his peak years because some players just develop that way.

But if he does take that long to develop, he's not going to make much progress at United and will find another club where he can play football regularly. And it may take that step in his career to come good and reach that top club level.

As a striker you really do need to be hitting the back of the net fairly regularly if you're going to make it at a top club. If he moved onto the wing fulltime it might suit his abilities a bit more
 
You do realise he's been stuck out wide in almost all those 13 games you just listed?

Oh and he's 19 years old. 19 years old and getting regular starts in the Premier League. His age is the single biggest reason everyone making definitive statements about his long-term prospects make so little sense.

Everyone's been getting giddy about Hernandez all week but he was contemplating giving up football to be a fecking student when he was a year older than Welbeck is now.
 
People that are compiling Welbeck stats, how many shots has he had at goal for Sunderland so far?

I know about the passing stats, I havent really seen him have a shot(because of his position in the lineup...but still), well he had an ill advised one today(I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say, he didn't see Bent)...
 
Striker10 said:
Bardsleys a poor mans neville, Eagles was always shite and jones wasn't that convincing. One thing people forget is you can big up a player but a year later the club could buy someone who's even better. So it's not a given but at the same time I don't think Sir Alex is looking at this and saying, 'agh he can't make it at United cause he can't do it at sunderland'. It gives him experience and if you have it bad, it toughens you up mentally.

The player we see at Sunderland is not the one we'd see for United. The sunderland fans might rightly be disappointed, but he's a forward. Why don't they play bent on the wing and see if his performances go down the toilet? It's easy for them to blame him and maybe if they supported him it'd give him a boost but by the sounds of it they don't want to do that
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Well because Bent will score them lots of goals in the premier league. Welbeck is yet to show he can do that on a regular basis. He's simply not going to compete with a proven goalscorer like Bent even if he was Sunderland's player. And he has played some of his matches up front with Bent.

On the wing, hard work, good running, good linkup play but no real goal threat could still amount to a good performance.

When he's played like that through the middle for Sunderland its not that good of a performance. And thats likely to be a factor as to why its Welbeck being moved onto the wing.
 
Ekeke said:
How about we all stop being wrong, and just try to put our feelings towards the club to one side for a second? How about we judge a player based on what he's proven against a decent level of opposition (not the reserves) in decent competitions and until they do so, we try to keep calm?

There are some players who have so much potential in their position, and already have certain abilities to a high level which means you can easily see how good they are going to be just given time and experience. The likes of Rafael when he first got a game.

Welbeck isnt one of those. And we're still waiting for him to prove himself at a good level.

He had 5 league matches for us last season according to wiki. He scored once. He's had 8 matches for Sunderland and he's yet to score.

Now he'll come good and score goals in the premier league, I dont think there's any reason to fear that he cant hack it in the top flight. Its just there's nothing to suggest he's going to be above mid-table premier league level for the next however many years. Even if thats the case, he could still go on to be good enough for a top club in his peak years because some players just develop that way.

But if he does take that long to develop, he's not going to make much progress at United and will find another club where he can play football regularly. And it may take that step in his career to come good and reach that top club level.

As a striker you really do need to be hitting the back of the net fairly regularly if you're going to make it at a top club. If he moved onto the wing fulltime it might suit his abilities a bit more
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Thing is he's been playing very much on the left wing with the license to give Bent support. For a kid of 19 to go 8(?) games without scoring in his first consistent run in the premier league is no disaster, no disaster at all.

Look at the goals he scored in the Carling cup for us last season or his finishing for the reserves, he's a goalscorer and given time will score goals.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You do realise he's been stuck out wide in almost all those 13 games you just listed?

Oh and he's 19 years old. 19 years and getting regular starts in the Premier League. Which is the single biggest reason everyone making definitive statements about his long-term prospects make so little sense.
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No he hasnt :lol:
 
Ekeke said:
Well because Bent will score them lots of goals in the premier league. Welbeck is yet to show he can do that on a regular basis. He's simply not going to compete with a proven goalscorer like Bent even if he was Sunderland's player. And he has played some of his matches up front with Bent.

On the wing, hard work, good running, good linkup play but no real goal threat could still amount to a good performance.

When he's played like that through the middle for Sunderland its not that good of a performance. And thats likely to be a factor as to why its Welbeck being moved onto the wing.
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When has he played up front? As I said I think I've seen pretty much all their games this season apart from today's and I only remember him playing this drifting left wing position.
 
Just had a quick look at the heat maps, they would suggest he's played wide left every game.
 
Fiskey said:
I'm pretty sure he has, can't remember a senior game in which he has played up front, at least one which he started.
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west brom (on after 67 mins) went up front with Bent with Zenden on the left.

man city (on at half time) went up front with Bent

wigan (started, off at half time for Gyan)

arsenal (started and finished) If I recall he was used on the left after Gyan came on after 64 mins. Until then he was up with Bent

west ham - didnt see this cc match, looks from the lineup like Bent and Gyan were up front with Welbeck wide

liverpool - wide left.

couldnt play against us

blackburn (started and finished) up front with bent

villa (started and replaced) up front with bent

newcastle (started and came off after the red card for Bramble) wide left
 
Fiskey said:
Just had a quick look at the heat maps, they would suggest he's played wide left every game.
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He drifts wide to run the channel. Heat maps of Henry at Arsenal would tell the same thing. Or Villa in some of his Valencia matches
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yes. Yes he has.

Have you even watched him play for Sunderland? :confused:
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Have you even read this thread? After half of Sunderland's premier league matches this season I've come in and commented on how well or unwell he played. I havent seen all their matches but I do look to catch them as much as possible.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
And you think he hasn't been playing out wide?

Bizarre.
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He's played as a second striker half the time, one of the duties of a second striker to a goal poacher like Bent is to run the channels. It doesnt matter if its Welbeck, Gyan or Campbell they all need to do some work wide because Bent isnt going to. And thats something second strikers have to do in a large amount of teams not just Sunderland.

In several other matches yes he's played wide. As I said. Those have come after average performances through the middle.
 
I think many fans struggle to see the difference between a United standard young player and any young player with some good attributes. There is a big difference and Welbeck falls into the young player with some good attributes.
 
Ekeke said:
west brom (on after 67 mins) went up front with Bent with Zenden on the left.

man city (on at half time) went up front with Bent

wigan (started, off at half time for Gyan)

arsenal (started and finished) If I recall he was used on the left after Gyan came on after 64 mins. Until then he was up with Bent

west ham - didnt see this cc match, looks from the lineup like Bent and Gyan were up front with Welbeck wide

liverpool - wide left.

couldnt play against us

blackburn (started and finished) up front with bent

villa (started and replaced) up front with bent

newcastle (started and came off after the red card for Bramble) wide left
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Just don't agree, from memory of watching the matches he's always been wide left with license and the heat maps would back it up. It is also possible to have a look at Henry's maps and they don't look like that.
 
Just for illustration, difference between Henry and Welbeck

Henry (tried to pick random game) Arsenal v Everton (28.10.2006) : Chalkboards | Published chalkboard Chalkboards saved - 5072X7xa3xDI6t494sl7 | Football | guardian.co.uk

Welbeck (game where you said he played up front) Sunderland v Arsenal (18.09.2010) : Chalkboards | Published chalkboard Chalkboards saved - 7Z110X1q4d203HDPIcqV | Football | guardian.co.uk

You can see a lot of Henry's passes are more central, and when he goes wide left its in a much more advanced position than where Welbeck is.
 
Scholesy said:
I think many fans struggle to see the difference between a United standard young player and any young player with some good attributes. There is a big difference and Welbeck falls into the young player with some good attributes.
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But don't you think Welbeck's good attributes are the same one's that usually go into making a very effective player, namely technique, physique, pace and height. Surely other attributes such as intelligence and decision making he can develop with experience.
 
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