You are not allowed to say these things.
Danny Welbeck to Sunderland (Loan Watch)
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
You are not allowed to say these things.
He looks for the ball into feet around the edge of the box and he generally used it well on the few occasions he got some service. Sunderland's urgency to swing early balls into the box didn't suit his game at all.
Well, I'm not an official representative of Arsenal, and I can tell you, I never tauted Stokes as the next big thing.
Welbeck is just so completely devoid of character though. There is genuinely no part of his game that looks that it could ever become fantastic. He's just a nothing player, for whom a club lower than even Sunderland is the right level.
Idiot. Meet idiot.
Not if you don't actually watch them play.
I haven't read the thread through. Are there really people who think Welbeck can hack it at United, in your current incarnation as a club?
I agree, but he needs to adapt and get in there more as they are not going to change style for him.
I will accept your opinion if you think he might not cut it at Man Utd, but what in God's name are you on about? Your wrong on so many levels, how many times have you even seen him?
What are you talking about? His frame is already fantastic for a 19 year old who has just stopped growing and he will only get bigger and stronger, meaning that in a few years he will be a real physical presence. He is quick, has fantastic technique that seems to have really tightened up since he's gotten used to his frame, and the fact that he made 100% of his passes tonight suggests that his control is fantastic as it is impossible to pass that accurately if the ball is not under control.
The sky's the limit, it really is, never been as excited about a player of his age since Fletcher.
By the way I've bought a Fletcher shirt every year since he made his début, was never one of the doubters!
I saw your youth team a few years back and among plenty touted players I thought there were two that stood out - Cathcart, who's now playing for Blackpool and Welbeck who was only just 16 but had something about him, he's still only 19.
Actually I've got a friend who's a gunner and went to see a United-Arsenal youth game about that time. He came back to me saying of course all the Arsenal youngsters are better, but this boy Welbeck is something special. He's a fantastic judge of a player (when their from other teams!) and since then I've taken a real interest in him and fully agree.
Sorry, I'll give you his physique, it's pretty good to be fair.
Technically, I don't see it. Whenever I look at a young player, I always think about how he can fail as opposed to how he can succeed. By doing that, I find it easier to gauge whether someone is a genuinely exciting player or not. That's why I'm so excited about Wilshere - he has it all, and consequently I can't see how he can fail. I never had the same feeling about someone like Aliadiere, or Denilson, because it's clear they didn't/don't have it all.
Welbeck is technically reasonable. He can keep the ball relatively well, and can dribble competently. He also has a decent shot on him. But none of these traits stand out - there's no doubt he's a good player, but he doesn't strike me as one who could play at the very top level. The weaker sides of his game include heading - which is bizarre given his physique - passing and vision. I'm sure someone will say that most of his passes hit his target, but they always seem to be the easiest choice, and normally go backwards.
Fair enough if I'm proven wrong, but I genuinely can't see it at all, whereas I can with Hernandez, for example. Welbeck just strikes me as mid-table.
There's also a stylist thing about the Welbecks of this world. He always seems quite languid and unhurried - when I was a player I always seemed to be rushing, shouting and puffing and found it really irritating to play against those kind of cool dudes.
I agree but with him and Ramsey they are already there, in my eyes there already top players and sure will only get better but I'm not sure they've got the amount of development ahead of them as Welbeck has. The staff have always said about Welbeck (I wish I could find a source) that he will stop growing late and therefore mature a bit later. I'm just really excited this is beginning to happen and the potential that everyone who follows youth football at United knew was there is beginning to show.
The fact is when there is so much talk about a player, and he is brought into the first team squad at barely 17 you know there is real faith from the coaches and the management.
Understand your enthusiasm (and there's nothing better to see a kid you first spotted at 16 and thought - 'he's got it' - make it) but there's no guarantees even Fabregas, who's the biggest talent I've ever seen at 16 you think - long way to go.
I doubt that as an arsenal fan you could have seen enough of him to make this kind of detailed judgement, especially if the games you are judging him on are those at Sunderland. At Sunderland most of the time he is being asked to play effectively as a left/right winger which is not really what he is he is more of a right/left forward - the difference being that for Sunderland he is asked to stay close to the touchline as a wide outlet where as at United and on many occasions for the U21 he is quite rightly allowed to play a slightly more central role and thus be more involved in play.
Don't get me wrong he isn't an out and out striker but he is the kind of player who should be given room to take on players and drift inside which is something that he does not get the chance to do as often for Sunderland as he is used to elsewhere. Most United fans I speak to understand that the good part of his progress at Sunderland is that he is learning more about workrate by having to move back and forth more often than he used to and this will stand him in good stead as time goes on.
As for technique he has that in abundance as most United fans who know their stuff will tell you, he also has as mentioned very good dribbling ability. He is still only 19 and there is plenty of room for development so I wouldn't expect him to suddenly become the finished article, but he is one of the main men for England at U21 and has so far outshone Whilshere at that level(although Wilshere is the better player technically and is still learning at that level).
He is far from midtable at this point in his career.
I'm not one of those who sees Welbeck as our next big thing. I'm not sure he'll even make it as a first team striker with us, having Macheda and Hernandez to contend with as he breaks through.
However, in his last couple of performances for Manchester United, Welbeck's vision was certainly accounted for. He was trying lots of fancy flicks and backheels, some came off some didnt. But they show a willingness to open teams up with something unpredictable and you dont do that if you dont see those passes and oppertunities in the first place.
If he's playing safe passes in the buildup now, thats a good thing. As you settle in and find your feet at a club, its the best thing to do. Keep it simple and do what works. As he feels more assured I'm sure he'll go back to the fancy things he showed he likes trying for us.
Thing is from what I see he's got more in his locker than these two. Hernadez will always score goals, and that is fantastically useful and I'm sure he'll be a great option for us for years to come but I just don't think he has the physique or the passing ability/vision to ever become a top top player.
Macheda I'm still not sure about, the fact that Fergie seems to have such faith is reassuring but his touch is just so often sloppy and his passing and vision again aren't brilliant. Good option off the bench, his energy and size can change the game and he's clearly got a fantastic eye for goal, but is that enough? I'm not sure.
I'd agree with your assessment of Hernandez - potentially a squad player but that's about it (still he's only 22). Macheda and Welbeck it's too early to call.
Hernandez has shown evidence of good vision with some of his passing in pre-season and in his few outings in the league and champions league. Some of them 30-40 yard passes. He's been a bit hit and miss with getting the weight of his passes right, more-so since the league season has started because he didnt have much trouble with that in pre-season. Could still be nerves, we'll see once he settles down properly for 6 months or so.
Macheda has come off the bench and opened up a defence or two with some assists.
In either case their vision seems fine. You dont have to flick or backheel a pass, whatever works works. And both seem better strikers and much better goalthreats than Welbeck. Thats what tends to keep a striker in the team.
I'm one of the few who liked Welbeck on the wing in his few matches there for the first team.
Macheda has come off the bench and opened up a defence or two with some assists.
In either case their vision seems fine. You dont have to flick or backheel a pass, whatever works works. And both seem better strikers and much better goalthreats than Welbeck. Thats what tends to keep a striker in the team.
I'm one of the few who liked Welbeck on the wing in his few matches there for the first team.
I'm not really getting the comparisons between Wilshere and Welbeck, both are totally different and play different positions...
Wilshere benefited immensely from his loan at Bolton, here's hoping Welbeck will emulate the same from his loan at Sunderland.
The thing is, at 19 Welbeck is a good prospect...
We're talking about youngsters, they need the right team, the right environment and the confidence of the coach to really strive.
Let's say Henry never moved to Arsenal and was kept playing LW his whole career, would he be the godly player he is back at his prime ?
I'm just mentioning Henry, is that I have watched Welbeck enough to say that they are similar in a way... Converting from an attacking winger/striker in their early days... and hoping 1 day they start more centrally...
Here's not comparing Welbeck to Henry's prime, but I'd say in the start of their careers, their development are some what similar...
Henry though, will always have more pace and a better touch... But here's hoping that Welbeck can develope to be a good out and out striker who has the ability to drift wide and cause havoc with his pace.
Wilshere benefited immensely from his loan at Bolton, here's hoping Welbeck will emulate the same from his loan at Sunderland.
The thing is, at 19 Welbeck is a good prospect...
We're talking about youngsters, they need the right team, the right environment and the confidence of the coach to really strive.
Let's say Henry never moved to Arsenal and was kept playing LW his whole career, would he be the godly player he is back at his prime ?
I'm just mentioning Henry, is that I have watched Welbeck enough to say that they are similar in a way... Converting from an attacking winger/striker in their early days... and hoping 1 day they start more centrally...
Here's not comparing Welbeck to Henry's prime, but I'd say in the start of their careers, their development are some what similar...
Henry though, will always have more pace and a better touch... But here's hoping that Welbeck can develope to be a good out and out striker who has the ability to drift wide and cause havoc with his pace.
He's the player I definitely hope Welbeck could become something like. Why would you say Henry will always have more pace and a better touch, wouldn't agree with that. I can see Welbeck being very close on those two accounts.
Good to see him getting match time
Not taking anything away from Welbeck but any comparisons or likening to Thierry Henry at any stage in the latter's career are wide off the mark.
Henry was always a special talent even before he went to Juve where his career seem to stall a bit.
Just let Welbeck grow to be his own player and man.
Its important that he's playing, I'd assume that Brucey has had a word with him and told him to keep things simple, don't give the ball away stupidly. At Sunderlands level its important to retain possession as long as possible, so i'm not surprised if Welbeck has been told to keep things simple.
I've liked Welbeck, he's still young and has bags of potential. The next 2 seasons will determine if he has a future at United.
I've liked Welbeck, he's still young and has bags of potential. The next 2 seasons will determine if he has a future at United.
I tought Welbeck always looked great for Utd. I am not surprised if he struggles at Sunderland as he is probaly played out of position. Fergie was at the game last night to watch him. Probably wondering if he should take him back when Rooney is sold!!
So Welbeck isn't as highly regarded ?
He has been one of Englands main man since... U17's, how would that differ from Henry ?
Anyhow, the comparisons are only for their style and what we hope Welbeck would turn out to be like, not comparing Henry on his career as Henry at peak form was easily one of the best strikers on the planet.
We don't have any outstanding youngsters.
I'm stunned how you managed to make a striker who will always score goals sound like a bad thing.
Not sure if you are joking, if not: Cleverley, Welbeck, Morrison, King, James, Pogba, Macheda
I never said it was a bad thing, just not enough to be a world class player. Inzaghi is probably the best goalscorer of the last decade and a half, is he world class? Would you have put him ahead of Ruud, Henry, Del Piero, Ronaldo, Shevchenko and I'm sure others I've omitted? No, because he's not world class, just being a goalscorer is no bad thing but it does not make you world class.
whoah, no white text !
I prefer Girish II
like you'd know in fairness....I would say Inzaghi is/was a world class goal scorer and his record in Europe speaks for itself, it's like saying Makelele wasn't a world class midfielder because the attacking side of his game wasn't up to much. Inzaghi is paid to score goals and he has done that job as well as anyone bar a select few over the past decade or so.
Surely in order for him to be mentioned as world class he's have to be able to get in a team ahead of those I mentioned above, there has to be a roughly finite amount of world class players.
I mean I could also add Raul, Owen, Yorke, Morientes, Vieri and Salas who were better or on a par with him.
hmmm not so sure about a few of them. salas in particular
Well none of them bar Raul and possibly Vieri have been as consistent and reliable for such a long period of time, his all round game is clearly not world class but if you judge him on what he's there to do which is to score goals then he most certainly is. It's all down to personal opinion anyway tbh, no two people would be able to agree on the exact same players they would class as world class I don't think.