So we didn't play 4-4-2 last season?
If we did who other than Rooney made up the front two in most of the games Welbeck started?
Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances
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So we didn't play 4-4-2 last season?
If we did who other than Rooney made up the front two in most of the games Welbeck started?
You said 'over the years', not this season.
Not sure, what is so hilarious about what I stated. The majority of his attribute are of noteworthy status, with his indecision in the final third and positional awareness being his most standout flaw. He is easily amongst the best in the United team when it comes to ball control, technicality, mentality, tactical displine, pace, strength, and passing accuracy, which as result, makes him a constant selection for some of our biggest game for two season counting.
Danny will be on the squad next season. But whether he plays out wide or up front he simple has to do better with his scoring chances. He's too wasteful for a forward of his supposed quality.
We will still be having this conversation in two seasons time.
Maybe one day it will all click for him and he will turn into this great striker that he currently shows no signs of being, in which case, more power too him and all his fans.
He's done well when he's played up top this season and did quite well even in his first season (11-12). Unfortunately for him we have both Rooney and RVP who are better so he's not going to get any run of games in that role. For his own good, we should probably sell him. Would be a waste of his potential if we kept him on as a squad player.
Yes, the players are rare players who I speak of, and world class ones. In general, the teams that win leagues, and win champions leagues have world class players. When I look back over recent history of the players we have, up front, the likes of Hughes, Cantona, Cole, Yorke, Ole, Ruud, RvP, Rooney etc, those are the type of players that Manchester United should be looking for. Those rare ones, those top upper echelon ones. I don't think Danny fits that bill, and I don't think that we should settle for his level, just because he is home grown.
He is 23 years old, and I agree, he'll get better. And I think he's a fine squad player to have, and he does many things well. But as a focal point, we should be aiming higher in my personal opinion.
Interesting comment. Care to elaborate on that? What exactly is it that you dislike about the comments that those of us who are newishly promoted are making, or is there someone in general that this is aimed at?
We surely are, though. He isn't the first name on the team sheet. If he doesn't come truly good I doubt we'll play him up front just because he's home grown. So, all things said and done, I don't see a huge problem here.
Either Welbeck takes the necessary strides over the next couple of seasons - and makes himself undroppable. Or he works on his game, becomes a little bit better in all departments and emerges as a good squad option. If he'd rather be a starter at a smaller club than a squad man at United - well, then off he goes with everyone's blessings.
The idea that Welbeck will somehow stand in the way of those rare, trophy winning players you mention is far fetched in my opinion. As a pure striker Welbeck is somewhere between third and fourth choice at United - he isn't blocking anyone's path.
Exactly though. That's exactly the way it is, and the way it should be, in my opinion. People on here are mentioning how he doesn't get enough games up front, and that we should be playing him up front more often so he can prove his worth. This is what I completely disagree with, for the reasons you have just put so eloquently right there. That he's simply not as good as those players, so shouldn't be played ahead of them.
Here's how I see it. If Welbeck had been undeniably worth dropping the likes of Rooney and RVP for - then we wouldn't be having these debates. He is a player whom it's hard to judge at the moment. He could turn into a top class striker with more game time up front - yes. But it isn't a foregone conclusion by any stretch. It might equally well be that Welbeck simply doesn't have it in him to take that stride - and that the most realistic scenario is that he turns out a versatile attacker in the squad player category.
That's where we are at the moment. With RVP and Rooney - and for that matter Hernandez - on our books, we can't give Danny that many chances up front. It's just the way it is - nobody's fault, really.
We'll see what happens during the summer window and after LVG has taken charge. Much could change - and quickly too.
Answering a question with a question. Good job. Yes I have. Question still stands.
One thing people need to realise about my posts is that in no way am I saying that Welbeck should be gifted the forward spot at the first 11. All I'm trying to show is that Welbeck has quality and potential. However, due to reasons already covered in 239 pages of posts, he hasn't demonstrated the quality and potential to everyone.
Normally, it's difficult for young up-and-comers to overcome established, world class players at top clubs, particularly forwards. Muller and Messi were the only forwards who made it in top clubs, and both have had quite some support and accommodations from their coaches and managers.
Welbeck, sadly, didn't get that, so now, the best for him could be to be a squad option or be a successful wide forward depending on what van Gaal wants from him. Heck, if van Gaal decides to make him our main forward, cool, but if he doesn't, well, we'll see how van Gaal uses Welbeck, then. If Welbeck leaves, I'll be a bit saddened, but I won't be hugely disappointed as we have good young forwards in Henriquez and Wilson coming up along with Chicharito still in the team.
Normally, it's difficult for young up-and-comers to overcome established, world class players at top clubs, particularly forwards. Muller and Messi were the only forwards who made it in top clubs, and both have had quite some support and accommodations from their coaches and managers.
Welbeck, sadly, didn't get that, so now, the best for him could be to be a squad option or be a successful wide forward depending on what van Gaal wants from him. Heck, if van Gaal decides to make him our main forward, cool, but if he doesn't, well, we'll see how van Gaal uses Welbeck, then. If Welbeck leaves, I'll be a bit saddened, but I won't be hugely disappointed as we have good young forwards in Henriquez and Wilson coming up along with Chicharito still in the team.
If you cant pick out the idiotic posts by reading them yourself its not up to me to educate you.
You seem v defensive though...
I think he'll polarise opinions for as long as he's here.
There'll always be those wishing he gets the game time because he's homegrown, he's a Manc lad and we should always have those types of players in the squad.
But then there's people like me who would rather we just had better players.
There'll always be those wishing he gets the game time because he's homegrown, he's a Manc lad and we should always have those types of players in the squad.
But then there's people like me who would rather we just had better players.
Nope. I'm not in the slightest bit defensive as I simply couldn't care less if you feel my posts are idiotic. Personally I didn't find your post in any way constructive, informative or that it added in any way to the debate. It was just a non funny attempt at sarcastic humour I felt, as if for some reason you feel you're qualified to point out the merits or lack thereof of other people's opinions. At least those people you feel are making idiotic posts are actually trying to make a useful point to add to the topic at hand.
Ah now I see why you were defensive. You seem to want to start an argument here. How about you start with pointing out exactly where I mentioned or refereed to any of your posts?
I asked did you read the previous pages for a reason. I presumed the posts i meant didn't need to be pointed out, that was obviously a mistake. It wasn't an attempt at anything just expressing my opinion that's all.
People saying he'll end up playing for Leicester or Hull after next season, that's he's an extremely average player and finally that Fryatt would be considered a better player than Welbeck in a crap team.
Not really sure the above are useful posts as you put it....
Everything you were debating up until this point was fair, but as soon as you posted this you can no longer be taken seriously.
It's. Fair point you know. Welbeck is turning 24. At what age do players stop being seen as up and coming players? You can still call them young players at like 22 or 23 but after that it's just normal, should be approaching his peak players. He's not a youngster anymore and that's just the truth.
Actually last season he played about 40 games. Around 20 games as starters only. And almost the entire of most of his games in 2012/2013 he played as a winger.
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I have never once said you were talking about my posts. I just asked which posts you were talking about. I don't necessarily want to start an argument as such, and I'd probably agree with you about the Leicester / Hull comments etc, but at least they were on topic. I just felt your post was a kind of pointless belittling attempt at whichever posts / posters you felt were making this thread a punishment.
Ah, ok. Because I disagree with your opinion I should not be taking seriously? That seems fair. As bosnian_red points out, he's nearly 24. I don't think players who have played more than 100 league games, along with more than 20 full internationals at the age of 23/24 are up and comers anymore. Up and comers to me are in the 16-22 range, though even that can skew slightly depending on how many games they have played.
I'd now see Welbeck as a pretty experienced international player, not an up and comer. Ok, he's not at his peak yet - maybe up and comer to you means up until the time of his peak? If so, fair enough, that's just a difference in how we define the term.
Mandzukic still hasn't reach a world class level. Torres wasn't a world class when Chelsea won the champion league. We have Rooney and RVP still exists in our team. Welbeck is still young and Welbeck still can learn more things from them to be as great or type "players" that you are looking for.
Some players have slow development due of the games they have or played out of position. Welbeck still has long way to go. He can learn more things from Rooney and RVP. He will get better and better. In the future he might can improved what he did this season. Scoring 10 goals in age of 23, and then 13 in age of 24, 15 goals in 25, 18 goals in 26, 20 goals in 27 and so on.
Some players do develop late but to expect it is ridiculous. It may happen but there's no real reason to think it will. It the 'Giggs could be as good as Guardiola' thing, yes he could but you have to surely err on the side of caution and say he probably won't be. Welbeck is going to have to go through a hell of a transformation awfully quickly to be the player some here think he can be.
What's worrying for me is that there hasn't really been much of a gradual improvement. Two seasons ago he looked promising then he had an awful season and now he's had a year that's probably as good as two years ago but is seen is poorer because he's still in the same place he was two years ago. I'd be amazed if what we saw from Welbeck next year wasn't in-line with this year - about 10 goals a season. I really think it's hoping against logic to expect anything else, especially when you consider the money we may spend in the summer. With all due respect it isn't terribly difficult to replace a holding forward player with a low/modest goal-scoring record who needs to take a couple of very big and very sudden steps forward in the summer to really stake a place in the first 11 next season.
What's worrying for me is that there hasn't really been much of a gradual improvement. Two seasons ago he looked promising then he had an awful season and now he's had a year that's probably as good as two years ago but is seen is poorer because he's still in the same place he was two years ago. I'd be amazed if what we saw from Welbeck next year wasn't in-line with this year - about 10 goals a season. I really think it's hoping against logic to expect anything else, especially when you consider the money we may spend in the summer. With all due respect it isn't terribly difficult to replace a holding forward player with a low/modest goal-scoring record who needs to take a couple of very big and very sudden steps forward in the summer to really stake a place in the first 11 next season.
I do hope you're right .. and I do feel Louis is the man to shape Danny if world class truly is within him.
If we're thinking of 'front 6 players' I don't see who Welbeck dislodges.
RVP? Definitely not. Rooney? Almost certainly not. Mata? Nope. So then you think Kagawa who I think will excel under van Gaal. Then all you really have left is Januzaj who is a much more exciting younger talent for the Dutchman to get his teeth into and to nurture. I can't really see what Welbeck has going for him. He's no longer an exciting youngster and there are players in the squad of similar age who are vastly superior technically. I could be wrong but I don't see who misses out for Welbeck to become a regular starter.
RVP? Definitely not. Rooney? Almost certainly not. Mata? Nope. So then you think Kagawa who I think will excel under van Gaal. Then all you really have left is Januzaj who is a much more exciting younger talent for the Dutchman to get his teeth into and to nurture. I can't really see what Welbeck has going for him. He's no longer an exciting youngster and there are players in the squad of similar age who are vastly superior technically. I could be wrong but I don't see who misses out for Welbeck to become a regular starter.
Well, it depends on the player whether they'll peak at around 24/25 or 27/28 (not talking about young and old here, just when a player will peak).
Anyways, at this age, Welbeck should, at least, be a key member of this team. So far, he is showing that he can be a key member of the team given his big-game performances and his international performances (particularly in Euro 2012). We haven't seen the best of Welbeck and other forwards, this season, under Moyes. We'll have to see whether Welbeck and co. improve under van Gaal.
I think the 'peak at 28' thing is bollocks and has been for a few years, players, top players, peak much earlier than that usually it seems. It's very rare for someone to emerge as a top talent when they're nearly 30. Most of the top-top players at that age are top-top players years before.
What happens if both players get injured and Welbeck has to come into the squad? What if he then scores 6 in 10 or whatever it was. Do we then just continue to trot out the same 'cant be trusted' horse shite? Make some more like for like 'won't displace' comparisons? Say he can't be first choice when the others return?
It's like a broken record. Tedious.
I think it's obvious that, if he does well, then those who are away due to injury will have to come back on merit and not by status. However, Welbeck will have to do well in order to make this possible.
Round and round and round we go!
I finished my part in this conversation with the post you quoted, I don't want to keep repeating (or hearing the same argument) over and over again.
If you are finished then don't replay and let me finish mine.
LVG will turn him into a world beater
It happened last season. Granted Moyes made a complete mess of the continuity of the team but Welbeck was shunted to a wide forward when they returned to the side.
Agreed. Reading that report on Van Gaal's style of play, I think Danny will be a perfect fit for the pressing game. He'll be a demon for us, mark my words!!
I am also one who thinks this.
Welbeck to Muller in the space on a month - mark my words
Agreed. I think he's an excellent player. One thing I don't get with Welbeck is why people are so impatient. Not all strikers are world beaters in their early 20's. Especially at big clubs where they don't get a consistent run in the team.
Despite not playing enough he has shown a steady improvement in his game each season. And when he was given a run of games up front this season he delivered. When RVP and Rooney get a bit past it he should be coming into his prime and be a great option. I can see him exploding in the second half of his 20's.
I say this because I think he's a very good player. I think he has a great attitude and a wonderful set of natural attributes for a centre forward. How some people see him as a Leicester of Hull player is beyond my understanding.
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