Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances

[Plugsy]

He is soon to be 24 years old, at this point he should be working on the smaller things in his game, not try to develop a huge amount. He struggles with positioning, body control, first touch, finishing and anticipation (movement in the box mainly, never starts a run before the pass is made and fail to attack dangerous space). Take a look at our players like RVP, Rooney and Mata, then think of Welbeck, he has so much less quality and it's so much it just can't be made up for at this point. Look at a player like Januzaj that is five years younger, he has far less to improve on and much better at most aspects of the game already.

This sounds very negative, but I actually would not mind if he stays. He is local and he would be ok as fourth or maybe even third choice as a forward. He will also find it harder to get games, because we will buy new players and they will be great players I suspect. We will also have to judge him against our aims as a club, would we achive our goals of winning the PL and CL with him as a trusted forward? Compared to the players that elevate the top clubs to the top of Europe often thend to be a lot better than him or has one or two extreme qualities that he just don't have at this point.

What is a big concern is that he has actually expressed, trough his agent, that he wants to leave to get more football. Then he will just have to move on for me because his focus is off and that is not the attitude he should have if he wants to improve and make it big at United.

To think he will become world class, when we argue if RVP, Rooney and Mata is at that level is more a dream than a serious objective judgment of the player. He is far from what I hoped for after his youth career and his few appearances as a 17/18 year old. He is sadly not top class at anything, but I still believe he can improve and be a decent squad player. But, then he have to put his head down and work, not feel that he deserve to play before players like RVP and Rooney at this point, that should not be his focus at this point.

I don't think that's negative I think that's realistic. At 24 years old you should be honing your skills and becoming better not suddenly hoping to become great. Whilst not impossible it's very improbable there'll ever be a sudden and dramatic leap in his ability. Beyond your mid 20s you may get better at what you do but you're unlikely to become a dramatically different player to the one you already are.

I often ask people to look at his peers of similar age or even younger. Welbeck isn't in the top echelon of player or even really particularly close. It doesn't mean he can't be a very good squad player, but talk of him suddenly waking up one morning to discover he's world class, like people in comas wake up to suddenly discover they can speak French, is just silly.

 

[dirkey]

Try mentioning it, this season there wasn't many. Hernandez, Rooney and Van Persie all missed similar, if not more clear cut opportunities. But continue on with the narrative.

They did. The difference is that Rooney and rvp have proven through the years they have been clinical, and I've not called hernandez clinical even though he's without doubt a better striker, though not all round player . Fair enough if you think Danny is clinical. I don't. Maybe Louis will and they'll prove me wrong. I'll be happy if that's the case.

 

[Care_de_Bobo]

Clinical is not a word for Danny I'm afraid. Give him an instinctive effort and he'll do something good more often than not. Give him time and he'll fudge it up more often than not, often in spectacular fashion. He is most definitely not clinical.

Could say the same about Van Persie this season, Welbeck would have been slaughtered for that tame effort against Arsenal. I remember a great bit of play between Welbeck and Rooney against Cardiff which resulted in a difficult chance, on the volley, for Welbeck. After the game, you'd think he'd missed an open net judging by the reactions on here.

I think the signing of Van Persie really has harmed his development. We were crying out for a midfielder, not another player in arguably our strongest position. Compared to the previous season, we scored fewer goals in RVP's first year and had a worse goal difference in the league, identical points tally too. For me it comes down to Hernandez and Welbeck being partners for Rooney than RVP as much as anything.

Van Persie has been a very good player for us, but whether he's made us a better team is very debatable.

 

[Cerpin]

Alright, I got some Welbeck stats for you all that I gathered this morning (instead of working on my paper).

These are stats for Welbeck's starts as a striker (or supporting striker), while playing for United. So I've disregarded all his appearances as a winger, and both his loan spells at Preston and Sunderland. Also all the games he was subbed on. I did this by going through line-ups and match reports; there are probably some mistakes, as it was difficult to see what kind of formation was used in some games -- so don't take this as the gospel (but I do consider it quite accurate):

57 games, 21 goals, 7 assists. In other words, a goal or an assist almost every other game.

I also subtracted the minutes he was subbed off in these games which resulted in roughly six games (although it could be argued that if I did this, I should also add the minutes where he was subbed on as a striker). Anyway, that would leave us with 51 games, 21 goals, and 7 assists.

So, is that good enough? If you compare him to Rooney at the same age, it's quite clear -- by just quickly looking at Rooney's stats -- that Wayne blows him out of the water productivity-wise. But then you also have to consider that Rooney played a hell of a lot more games than Welbeck at that age, and that he, for the most part, was played in his preferred position (i.e. he was a lot more experienced than Danny in the striker/supporting striker position).
I think it's a decent enough return. Not fantastic, and probably not enough to displace either RvP or Rooney. But I'd still love to see him get another full season under his belt, as a striker, to see how good he can be. There are examples of strikers who've been 1 in 3 goals scorers, who've then exploded at age 24-25 (Drogba, Cavani, maybe even Ibra). I just think it would be a fecking shame if he left and became a top striker at some other club.

 

[JSMHE]

Alright, I got some Welbeck stats for you all that I gathered this morning (instead of working on my paper).

These are stats for Welbeck's starts as a striker (or supporting striker), while playing for United. So I've disregarded all his appearances as a winger, and both his loan spells at Preston and Sunderland. Also all the games he was subbed on. I did this by going through line-ups and match reports; there are probably some mistakes, as it was difficult to see what kind of formation was used in some games -- so don't take this as the gospel (but I do consider it quite accurate):

57 games, 21 goals, 7 assists. In other words, a goal or an assist almost every other game.

I also subtracted the minutes he was subbed off in these games which resulted in roughly six games (although it could be argued that if I did this, I should also add the minutes where he was subbed on as a striker). Anyway, that would leave us with 51 games, 21 goals, and 7 assists.

So, is that good enough? If you compare him to Rooney at the same age, it's quite clear -- by just quickly looking at Rooney's stats -- that Wayne blows him out of the water productivity-wise. But then you also have to consider that Rooney played a hell of a lot more games than Welbeck at that age, and that he, for the most part, was played in his preferred position (i.e. he was a lot more experienced than Danny in the striker/supporting striker position).
I think it's a decent enough return. Not fantastic, and probably not enough to displace either RvP or Rooney. But I'd still love to see him get another full season under his belt, as a striker, to see how good he can be. There are examples of strikers who've been 1 in 3 goals scorers, who've then exploded at age 24-25 (Drogba, Cavani, maybe even Ibra). I just think it would be a fecking shame if he left and became a top striker at some other club.

Gotta appreciate your work. Thanks for doing that. But stats only isn't enough. Welbeck's highest ability isn't on goals or assists but his teamwork.
Good link up play, giving trouble to defenders by stretching them and movement to give more space to the other players, and obvious try to get the possession back again by giving pressure.
And very effective especially with his work rate, speed, energy and strength.
And as an individual he has lovely skills and be able to beat players.
We knows he loves to make flick pass or backheel pass which is both skills and teamwork play.

Rooney in the other hand, when he was young, he was on the list of potential to be the best player in the world without a doubt though now he's just a player with inconsistency and overpaid.

I never look attackers goals and assists. Unless if they got overpaid then they need to produce a lot of goals and assists. No matter where they play, I'm very happy if they do great job for the team even if they don't score.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Welbeck's technique is odd, at times you think it is brilliant for beating two players in his lanky ways and bursting past them but these stints are deceitful. Looking at it consistently he isn't good enough of a dribbler to play out wide for us considering our strikers can't beat their man on their own either so all pressure is on the wide men in that regard.

He is a central player, he has good technique and dribbling for a central player(striker preferably of course) but the demand out wide is a lot higher in those regards. Kagawa/Mata/Iniesta are world-class in terms of dribbling centrally but out wide neither has the ability to beat their defender consistently in near every attack.

I think he is better of leaving for a club where he gets game-time centrally, he is at a point in his career where he already made a huge mistake staying here after his successful season and now has to decide whether he will take his last chance to make it big or be a squad player forever.

If he had gone to some alright club after that year in Italy or Spain then he would probably have been a world-class player by now or rated extremely highly at least.

 

[Cerpin]

Gotta appreciate your work. Thanks for doing that. But stats only isn't enough. Welbeck's highest ability isn't on goals or assists but his teamwork.
Good link up play, giving trouble to defenders by stretching them and movement to give more space to the other players, and obvious try to get the possession back again by giving pressure.
And very effective especially with his work rate, speed, energy and strength.
And as an individual he has lovely skills and be able to beat players.
We knows he loves to make flick pass or backheel pass which is both skills and teamwork play.

Rooney in the other hand, when he was young, he was on the list of potential to be the best player in the world without a doubt though now he's just a player with inconsistency and overpaid.

I never look attackers goals and assists. Unless if they got overpaid then they need to produce a lot of goals and assists. No matter where they play, I'm very happy if they do great job for the team even if they don't score.

Oh, I agree, he does bring much more to the team than just goals and assists.

I think you're being a bit harsh on Rooney though. He's inconsistent and overpaid, yes, but he still delivers -- in terms of assists and goals -- every season. With that said, I wouldn't be too against him being sold for a nice fee, and then letting Welbeck have a fair crack at the striker gig.

 

[Tomuś]

He'll become a 20 goals man for us while having more strings to his bow. His overall performance against big sides is usually huge. I've already seen him leading the line well against the best in England and he can do a job defensively as well. Only need to sort out his finishing for good. He won't become Ruud or Ole but he can be Rooney pre-2006/07 in terms of finishing which will be decent enough given his other values and the fact he won't be the main man.

 

[Plugsy]

He'll become a 20 goals man for us while having more strings to his bow. His overall performance against big sides is usually huge. I've already seen him leading the line well against the best in England and he can do a job defensively as well. Only need to sort out his finishing for good. He won't become Ruud or Ole but he can be Rooney pre-2006/07 in terms of finishing which will be decent enough given his other values and the fact he won't be the main man.

I don't get how you can make this assessment. He's scored 30 goals since becoming a full time/first choice top-flight player over four years. Suddenly it's asserted he will become a 20 goals a season player? This isn't even optimism, it's just plucking things out of the air. He's going to have to practically treble his contribution of goals to hit that target. That's completely unrealistic.

This is why we can't have serious debates on how good our emerging (or in this case, emerged) players are because even if their goal scoring record hasn't been brilliant it's just taken as read he "will" score 20 goals a season or Cleverley "will" become top class.

 

[Tomuś]

So the argument is "everyone misses" ?


I don't get how you can make this assessment. He's scored 30 goals since becoming a full time/first choice top-flight player over four years. Suddenly it's asserted he will become a 20 goals a season player? This isn't even optimism, it's just plucking things out of the air. He's going to have to practically treble his contribution of goals to hit that target. That's completely unrealistic.

We can have a bet that if he stays and is played as a striker, he'll have scored 20 goals in at least one of the 2/3 coming seasons. That's only talking about near enough future. 1 goal in 162 minutes in the league this season and he didn't always play up top. He has 20 goals in him but needs 40/50 games for that (up front).

If Hernandez goes and we don't buy a striker, which I don't think we will, he can easily get 40 odd games in all comps and given his already (if only slightly) improved finishing, he can beat 20 goals' mark.

 

[Lynk]

He'll become a 20 goals man for us while having more strings to his bow. His overall performance against big sides is usually huge. I've already seen him leading the line well against the best in England and he can do a job defensively as well. Only need to sort out his finishing for good. He won't become Ruud or Ole but he can be Rooney pre-2006/07 in terms of finishing which will be decent enough given his other values and the fact he won't be the main man.

I doubt he'll ever reach that.

 

[Ducklegs]

Rooney in the other hand, when he was young, he was on the list of potential to be the best player in the world without a doubt though now he's just a player with inconsistency and overpaid.

.

Rooney isn't inconsistent.

 

[Plugsy]

We can have a bet that if he stays and is played as a striker, he'll have scored 20 goals in at least one of the 2/3 coming seasons. That's only talking about near enough future. 1 goal in 162 minutes in the league this season and he didn't always play up top. He has 20 goals in him but needs 40/50 games for that (up front).

If Hernandez goes and we don't buy a striker, which I don't think we will, he can easily get 40 odd games in all comps and given his already (if only slightly) improved finishing, he can beat 20 goals' mark.

I don't get what you're basing it on at all. Why would he suddenly treble his career average contributions in the next two seasons? It's sheer pie-in-the-sky. Welbeck won't touch 20 goals a season unless he goes through a David Banner-like transformation.

 

[Tomuś]

I doubt he'll ever reach that.

If we continue to throw him out wide or give him man-marking jobs then he won't. If he gets 40 odd games up front then he certainly can.

 

[Lynk]

If we continue to throw him out wide or give him man-marking jobs then he won't. If he gets 40 odd games up front then he certainly can.

He won't ever get that chance. Van Persie will be given 2-3 more seasons.

 

[Ducklegs]

I doubt he'll ever reach that.

I believe he will never score 20 league goals in a season.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

I doubt he'll ever reach that.

Why do you think that?

Rooney isn't inconsistent.

Good one

 

[Robbie Boy]

I don't get how you can make this assessment. He's scored 30 goals since becoming a full time/first choice top-flight player over four years. Suddenly it's asserted he will become a 20 goals a season player? This isn't even optimism, it's just plucking things out of the air. He's going to have to practically treble his contribution of goals to hit that target. That's completely unrealistic.

This is why we can't have serious debates on how good our emerging (or in this case, emerged) players are because even if their goal scoring record hasn't been brilliant it's just taken as read he "will" score 20 goals a season or Cleverley "will" become top class.

This baseless twenty goal argument has been raging since before the start of last season. I had some 'discussion' in this thread with a-few posters (all on ignore now) that were so adamant that he would score 20+ last season, that they actually got arsey and decided to put fiction over fact. They actually found some bizarre formula that said that he would, without doubt, score 20 or more in the 13/14 season. Needless to say, he didn't score 20 goals.

I do like, Welbeck though, and his finishing definitely improved this season; albeit, it still needs improvement. As a striker or a deep lying forward, I feel he's an asset; it's when he's played out wide that I find him rather pointless.

You will find yourself perplexed and questioning your sanity if you continue to question Welbeck and Cleverley on here. The bias and downright denial on some posters part is astonoshing. Their form / progress since being actual 'young' players doesn't even come into question. It all boils down to them being academy players.

 

[Lynk]

Why do you think that?

It's a mixture of him lacking composure and instinct in front of goal and the fact that the United striker role is blocked for him by 2 of the best players in the world. When Van Persie is past it United will throw more money at the frontline. Welbeck is already 24, Van Persie could still have 2-3 years at the top level.

 

[Tomuś]

I don't get what you're basing it on at all. Why would he suddenly treble his career average contributions in the next two seasons? It's sheer pie-in-the-sky. Welbeck won't touch 20 goals a season unless he goes through a David Banner-like transformation.

If you're a robot and only pay attention to numbers then you will learn that he needed less time than Hernandez to score a goal this season. Would it be fair to say he's the better finisher? would it feck. Is it so comfy to ignore the roles Welbeck has been ascribed throughout his career at United so far? Being play out wide, tracking back or harrasing the opposite DM? In two of the seasons he's been mostly played up front he's had similar ratio (in the league) to Rooney's of 07-09 when Rooney had similar tasks to make up for Ronaldo's freedom.

Given that Welbeck matches his ratio of those seasons with a poorer finishing is it so much of a stretch to say that if he sorts out his finishing, which he seems to have started, and is played up front for 40 odd games he'll end up with 20 goals in all comps to his name?

 

[Plugsy]

I still don't understand where this "if he's played up top" caveat comes from, as if he hasn't.

If we were to guess what the usual formation under Moyes last season was we'd guess 4-4-2 or perhaps a variation, perhaps 4-4-1-1, wouldn't we? So two up top

Number of games Welbeck played last season where he was an additional to the two up front e.g games he started 'outwide'

vs Chelsea (H)
vs Olympiakos (H)

Games Welbeck has been part of the 'front 2'

vs Swansea
vs Liverpool
vs City
vs Shaktar
vs Tottenham
vs Everton
vs West Ham
vs Hull
vs Tottenham
vs Swansea
vs Sunderland
vs Swansea
vs Chelsea
vs Sunderland
vs City
vs Bayern
vs Bayern
vs Norwich
vs Southampton


In all those games it was Welbeck + another forward, or in some cases Welbeck as the sole striker. With perhaps the Chelsea game Janzuzaj up front bizarre experiment.

Now unless we're going to argue David Moyes wasn't a 4-4-2 guy can we end this "he didn't get enough of a chance up top" stuff. He may not have been a central striker, he may have been asked to play as a left-sided forward but he WAS a forward. He only started two games the entire campaign here he was not part of our front two.

Either we've all been mistaken and we've not been playing 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 these last few months or Welbeck has played up top far often than he's played elsewhere

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

@Plugsy

This issue isn't whether two strikers were deployed it's where he physically plays on the pitch, sorry to make the above pointless

 

[JSMHE]

Oh, I agree, he does bring much more to the team than just goals and assists.

I think you're being a bit harsh on Rooney though. He's inconsistent and overpaid, yes, but he still delivers -- in terms of assists and goals -- every season. With that said, I wouldn't be too against him being sold for a nice fee, and then letting Welbeck have a fair crack at the striker gig.

If Rooney is paid about 100-150k per week then I'll say he's consistent. But for 250k or 300k per week. I'm expecting him minimum to be as consistent as Suarez or Aguero.

 

[Plugsy]

@Plugsy

This issue isn't whether two strikers were deployed it's where he physically plays on the pitch, sorry to make the above pointless

So who else was up top mostly during these last few months of 4-4-2? Carrick and Evra?

So we played 4-4-2, which presumably everyone agrees, Welbeck started 19 games as part of the front 2 and yet it's still argued he didn't play up front very often?

 

[Ducklegs]

Why do you think that?



Good one

In answer to your first- Because I dont think he is a very good striker.

In reply to your second- By what metric are you judging Rooney and his "inconsistency", he has "consistently" been a player that delivers over 20 goals and assists a season, who has "consistently" either been our top or second highest scoring player and has "consistently" been a player who has either been our first or second most assisting player since he signed.
Wayne Rooney, is the 4th highest assisting player in premier league history, with 89 assists so far, more than twice as many as Paul Scholes.

Wayne Rooney is the 4th highest scoring player in premier league history.
In 3 goals time, he will be the third.
In 13 goals time, only one player will of scored more premier league goals than Wayne Rooney.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

So who else was up top mostly during these last few months of 4-4-2? Carrick and Evra?

I'll assume you're trying to funny and put it down to sarcasm.

You are aware a 4-4-2, there are 100's of variations and even if the team starts like that, it quite often ends up changing, people drifitng out etc On top of that, we didn't play a lot of 4-4-2, we may have have had 4 defenders, 4 midfielders and 2 strikers, but you're aware that combination of players doesn't have to be a 4-4-2 yes?

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

In answer to your first- Because I dont think he is a very good striker.

In reply to your second- By what metric are you judging Rooney and his "inconsistency", he has "consistently" been a player that delivers over 20 goals and assists a season, who has "consistently" either been our top or second highest scoring player and has "consistently" been a player who has either been our first or second most assisting player since he signed.
Wayne Rooney, is the 4th highest assisting player in premier league history, with 89 assists so far, more than twice as many as Paul Scholes.

Wayne Rooney is the 4th highest scoring player in premier league history.
In 3 goals time, he will be the third.
In 13 goals time, only one player will of scored more premier league goals than Wayne Rooney.

Quite simply that he consistently doesn't perform at which we know he is capable, nor that which his wages suggest

 

[Plugsy]

The whole 'Welbeck didn't play that often up front' is just a nonsense excuse clinging onto the fact that he was asked to play a few games out wide. He had ample chances up top. Rooney too would often play on the left or the right just as if not more often than Welbeck has over the last 3 seasons yet if in the Rooney thread someone said "he'd score more if he got to play up top" people would break a rib laughing.

It's just endless excuses. He hasn't scored 20 goals a season because he hasn't played up top even though we play 4-4-2 and him as one of the '2', he'll score more when he gets the chance if we sell Rooney or RVP - despite the fact RVP has been injured for large chunks of the season already. I can't foresee any circumstance where excuses won't be made for him and instead we'll just carry on talking about the player as if he exists in this fantasy world of hyperbole where it's only chances, his position and alignment of the star signs preventing him from grabbing the golden boot on a regular basis.

Maybe if Manchester had a regular south-easterly breeze?

 

[JSMHE]

I still don't understand where this "if he's played up top" caveat comes from, as if he hasn't.

If we were to guess what the usual formation under Moyes last season was we'd guess 4-4-2 or perhaps a variation, perhaps 4-4-1-1, wouldn't we? So two up top

Number of games Welbeck played last season where he was an additional to the two up front e.g games he started 'outwide'

vs Chelsea (H)
vs Olympiakos (H)

Games Welbeck has been part of the 'front 2'

vs Swansea
vs Liverpool
vs City
vs Shaktar
vs Tottenham
vs Everton
vs West Ham
vs Hull
vs Tottenham
vs Swansea
vs Sunderland
vs Swansea
vs Chelsea
vs Sunderland
vs City
vs Bayern
vs Bayern
vs Norwich
vs Southampton


In all those games it was Welbeck + another forward, or in some cases Welbeck as the sole striker. With perhaps the Chelsea game Janzuzaj up front bizarre experiment.

Now unless we're going to argue David Moyes wasn't a 4-4-2 guy can we end this "he didn't get enough of a chance up top" stuff. He may not have been a central striker, he may have been asked to play as a left-sided forward but he WAS a forward. He only started two games the entire campaign here he was not part of our front two.

Either we've all been mistaken and we've not been playing 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 these last few months or Welbeck has played up top far often than he's played elsewhere

He played left but coming inside more on 433 formation against Swansea.
He played left against Shaktar. I remember he covered Evra so many time on the left side.
From Spurs until Chelsea he played up front well, I guess that;s why he scored goals.
He played as a left forward against Bayern both of them similar role like against Swansea 1st game. He started all his 4 games on the left in Champion League.
He played left against Southampton until RVP was subbed off.

 

[Ducklegs]

If Rooney is paid about 100-150k per week then I'll say he's consistent. But for 250k or 300k per week. I'm expecting him minimum to be as consistent as Suarez or Aguero.

Ill answer this:
Wayne Rooney 2013-2014 goals and assists - 27
Suarez - 44
Aguero- 23
Wayne Rooney 2012-13 Goals and Assists- 23
Suarez 28
Augero 14
Wayne Rooney 2011-2012 Goals and Assists 32
Aguero - 33
Suarez 16

So what you have what you want, a player that is "as" consistent as the other two, in fact, more consistent as he has delivered over 20 goals and assists a season for the past 3 years, and the others, havent.

:/

One of them plays for the most expensively assembled football team in history, and this season Wayne had a cabbage for a manager.
Double :/

 

[Ducklegs]

Quite simply that he consistently doesn't perform at which we know he is capable, nor that which his wages suggest

So who do you think you get for his wages who is better than him?

 

[Plugsy]

Isn't it a reasonable expectation that a modern day forward will involve themselves in play? Everyone has to come deep these days, make chances for themselves. If the definition of playing up top is that you stand in the penalty area and wait, then I'd agree he didn't play up top but then nobody has. Whether you have to start from a deeper base outwide as Rooney or Welbeck often does or centrally as is generally the case with RvP or Hernandez - you still play as a forward. I'm aware that Welbeck has spent significant time holding out wide, I don't deny this but I don't understand why some people seek to deny that he's also spent a heck of a lot of time up top.

In any game people are asked to adapt and change positions depending on the circumstance at the time but that rings true for every striker we have. Even Hernandez in games is often seen dropping deep, it doesn't mean to say that you could excuse a poor goals return from him by saying "ah, but he'd score more if he played up front."

 

[JSMHE]

Ill answer this:
Wayne Rooney 2013-2014 goals and assists - 27
Suarez - 44
Aguero- 23
Wayne Rooney 2012-13 Goals and Assists- 23
Suarez 28
Augero 14
Wayne Rooney 2011-2012 Goals and Assists 32
Aguero - 33
Suarez 16

So what you have what you want, a player that is "as" consistent as the other two, in fact, more consistent as he has delivered over 20 goals and assists a season for the past 3 years, and the others, havent.

:/

I don't remember I said Rooney was inconsistent in 3 years right?
What I care is now, even last season he's not worth of 250k per week. It's pointless to talk about the past if it won't change his inconsistent for this season.

That's why Rooney is being offered a 250k per week in 2010 because he deserves it. Now? I don't think he's better than the previous season or even deserve a new and more money on the contract. Most likely his form is dropped which mean his wage should be dropped as well instead of increased.
Being consistent in goals and assists means every games. Not the number of goals with a lot of games and also not just being good one game by scoring 2 goals and then switched off the next game. And only good against below top 10 team but can't show a worth of 250k or 300k per week performance against big team.

But then since last season just look at Suarez and Aguero goals. Even this season Aguero has more injury but yet still more consistent than Rooney. And Suarez and Aguero have lower wage than Rooney. Reus offers more but got about more than 5 times lower wage than Rooney.

It's unrealistic.. But let's just imagine how much money we can save if we sell Rooney and instead sign Reus last season.

 

[Plugsy]

Generally I loathe heat-maps, however...



From two games each player didn't score in .

Rooney from the draw to Chelsea in August

Spoiler

Welbeck from the defeat to Sunderland in January

Spoiler

I can't see an awful lot of different in terms of where you could assess from those two heat maps where or how they've been asked to play and I think that holds pretty much across the season. These are genuinely the first two heat map images that came up when I googled. I think this idea Welbeck has somehow been disadvantaged by being asked to do what other strikers haven't this season, doesn't hold true.

Welbeck hasn't been asked to do anything, or much different to, what Rooney is regularly asked to do or what most strikers at this level are asked to do.

 

[Cerpin]

The whole 'Welbeck didn't play that often up front' is just a nonsense excuse clinging onto the fact that he was asked to play a few games out wide. He had ample chances up top. Rooney too would often play on the left or the right just as if not more often than Welbeck has over the last 3 seasons yet if in the Rooney thread someone said "he'd score more if he got to play up top" people would break a rib laughing.

It's just endless excuses. He hasn't scored 20 goals a season because he hasn't played up top even though we play 4-4-2 and him as one of the '2', he'll score more when he gets the chance if we sell Rooney or RVP - despite the fact RVP has been injured for large chunks of the season already. I can't foresee any circumstance where excuses won't be made for him and instead we'll just carry on talking about the player as if he exists in this fantasy world of hyperbole where it's only chances, his position and alignment of the star signs preventing him from grabbing the golden boot on a regular basis.

Maybe if Manchester had a regular south-easterly breeze?

You're right about the fact that he got the majority of his games this season up front: 18 out of 25 starts where as one of the front two. However, he also got 9 goals in those 18 starts, which isn't all too bad. Compared with Rooney (17 goals from 37 starts) and RvP (12 goals from 23 starts), Welbeck goal per game ratio is only slightly below theirs: Welbeck has a goal every two games, Rooney a goal every 1.94, and RvP a goal every 1.91 games. Factor in that both Rooney and RvP take penalties, I'd say the three of them have performed to quite a similar level this season. So, if Welbeck got 40 starts as a striker for United, it really isn't that unlikely that he'd get those 20 goals. But yeah, without one of Rooney or RvP leaving, it looks highly unlikely.

Your claim that Rooney has been shifted to the flanks as often as Welbeck these last three seasons doesn't seem to hold true. Out of 77 starts these last three season, Welbeck's had 38 starts as a striker, or supporting striker. Less than half of his performances, that is. Are you claiming that it's the same situation for Rooney? It's been ages since he played on the left; he played on the right against Real last season and maybe in one other game -- other than that I really can't remember him playing on the flanks.

 

[Tomuś]

You're right about the fact that he got the majority of his games this season up front: 18 out of 25 starts where as one of the front two.

You're talking about the league only, aren't you? Welbeck only started 15 games in the league this season and I'd wager not all of them as the front man. His league goal-to-game or rather min-per-goal ratio was pretty good this season. He, as it were, played 16 full games in the league this season and got 9 goals, how many more goals would you expect from not a poacher in the pure sense? It's not terribly impressive but still as good as to suggest he has 20 goals in him in all comps if played more often. Give him 20 starts and he is angling towards 13 league goals with that ratio. In the league only. That's obviously if he's fortunate enough to take 20 starts away from RvP and Rooney (If Hernandez goes).

Ignore last season, he needed 10 times less minutes to score a goal this season than he needed last time round which indicates considerable improvement in his finishing and being played up front more often.

 

[Cerpin]

You're talking about the league only, aren't you? Welbeck only started 15 games in the league this season and I'd wager not all of them as the front man. His league goal-to-game or rather min-per-goal ratio was pretty good this season. He, as it were, played 16 full games in the league this season and got 9 goals, how many more goals would you expect from not a poacher in the pure sense? It's not terribly impressive but still as good as to suggest he has 20 goals in him in all comps if played more often. Give him 20 starts and he is angling towards 13 league goals with that ratio. In the league only. That's obviously if he's fortunate enough to take 20 starts away from RvP and Rooney (If Hernandez goes).

Ignore last season, he needed 10 times less minutes to score a goal this season than he needed last time round which indicates considerable improvement in his finishing and being played up front more often.

No, I'm talking all competitions. He had 15 league starts, yes, but they weren't all as one of the front two. Did you misunderstand my post? Because we're in agreement.

 

[Tomuś]

No, I'm talking all competitions. He had 15 league starts, yes, but they weren't all as one of the front two. Did you misunderstand my post? Because we're in agreement.

I was more of elaborating on your take than disagreeing with. I only thought you meant the league only as he's got 25 apps of sorts there so it was easy to misinterpret.

 

[Cerpin]

I was more of elaborating on your take than disagreeing with. I only thought you meant the league only as he's got 25 apps of sorts there so it was easy to misinterpret.

Ah, gotcha.

 

[dirkey]

Could say the same about Van Persie this season, Welbeck would have been slaughtered for that tame effort against Arsenal. I remember a great bit of play between Welbeck and Rooney against Cardiff which resulted in a difficult chance, on the volley, for Welbeck. After the game, you'd think he'd missed an open net judging by the reactions on here.

I think the signing of Van Persie really has harmed his development. We were crying out for a midfielder, not another player in arguably our strongest position. Compared to the previous season, we scored fewer goals in RVP's first year and had a worse goal difference in the league, identical points tally too. For me it comes down to Hernandez and Welbeck being partners for Rooney than RVP as much as anything.

Van Persie has been a very good player for us, but whether he's made us a better team is very debatable.

Yes, van persie has missed chances at times. As did Rooney, as did Ronaldo, as did any player. But they also have proven over many years that they will score more often than not. Danny hasn't. Danny frequently misses chances. He is getting better but he's still not where we should be aiming and to get rid of a proven goalscorer in the hope he becomes this clinical finisher is madness. He's a 3rd choice striker at best and until he continually proves he should be further up the pecking order, that's where he should remain.

Answer me this. Last minute in a cup final. We're 1 down. Ball is played through and welbeck is clear on goal. Are you even remotely confident he'll score? I'm certainly not. I fully expect him to either get tangled up in his own legs or try some idiotic audacious attempt that he messes up.

Whereas with Rooney or rvp, it's a surprise when they miss. That's the difference.