Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances

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What constitutes a chance? Is Ronaldo shooting from 30 yards a chance, because he decided to shoot?

Does Gervinho not shooting and trying to dribble before messing up consitute a chance even though he's never taken a shot?

Ronaldo shooting is.

Gervinho messing up is not.

It is pretty straightforward. Being clinical is about taking the right shots and making them. I'm not pro-Welbeck or think he is a better finisher than any of the names mentioned, but your response didn't make sense.
 
I hope Welbeck stays with United for his whole career, his enthusiasm is infectious. He may never be our first choice forward, but he has tremendous skills. I'm still backing him to make big improvements in his game.
 
Welbeck has a better chance conversion rate than RVP, Rooney, Suarez, Messi and Ronaldo this season.

Lad needs to shoot more, maybe not as much as them as that would likely be quite annoying, but at least more than the couple of times a game he averages.
 
Uh, yeah. Welbeck does it often. RVP does not.

Van Persie's clearly done it more often than Welbeck this season and Rooney when he was younger was every bit as wasteful as Welbeck when 1 on 1. I'm sure he missed 3 genuine 1 on 1's against Liverpool in 07/08 and made a habit of doing so against most teams that season. With his record of 7 goals in 9 starts up front, would it really be a stretch to suggest he could have gotten 20 over goals if he was a regular starter? Rooney had only managed that once by the time he turned 24 (i.e. the age Welbeck will be next season). This idea that he's just an average player who has a place in the squad because he's a local talent is clearly a bit ridiculous.
 
Welbeck has a better chance conversion rate than RVP, Rooney, Suarez, Messi and Ronaldo this season.

Danny Wellbeck EPL goals in his career: 20.

All of the above have raked up more than that in one season on several occasions.
 
Van Persie's clearly done it more often than Welbeck this season and Rooney when he was younger was every bit as wasteful as Welbeck when 1 on 1. I'm sure he missed 3 genuine 1 on 1's against Liverpool in 07/08 and made a habit of doing so against most teams that season. With his record of 7 goals in 9 starts up front, would it really be a stretch to suggest he could have gotten 20 over goals if he was a regular starter? Rooney had only managed that once by the time he turned 24 (i.e. the age Welbeck will be next season). This idea that he's just an average player who has a place in the squad because he's a local talent is clearly a bit ridiculous.


But the flaws in his game are obvious. I'm sure Rooney was able to comfortably remain on his feet than receiving the ball. All we have of Welbeck is hope. He "might" turn out to be as good as RVP. But what actual evidence is there?

I don't get what people see in him other than where he comes from. He fails to do the basic so often and people just ignore it on the basis that it's somehow anti-United or sacrilegious not to hold the belief that every single player who we bring through will be awesome. I don't know how a player who is 23/24 and had as much first team experience as he's had gets so many excuses made for him when he evidently lacks so much. I've said before he'd probably make a very good player for most top-flight teams but for our ambitions he won't/can't be any more than a squad player.

He's in the same age bracket of Jones, Rafael, De Gea, Smalling and a not that much younger than Kagawa, and Mata. Now of course not all of those players have made it, but most have. De Gea is already top class. Rafael has been our first choice full-back for ages for a reason. Kagawa and Mata's past/transfer values speak for themselves.

Surely these are who we should judge players against? The only reason why Welbeck and Cleverley have staunch defenders among the fans is precisely because of their background, rather than people judging them unfairly because of it. We're a club with a tradition of bringing through talent, why would anyone have an issue with that? But a time comes when you have to be honest and have something more substantial than the hope he might suddenly one day in his mid or late 20s become exceptional. There needs to be more than that and there needs to be a fairness on judging players regardless of background.

If you look at many in the squad of similar age or younger, he's miles behind most in terms of his personal development.
 
Van Persie's clearly done it more often than Welbeck this season and Rooney when he was younger was every bit as wasteful as Welbeck when 1 on 1. I'm sure he missed 3 genuine 1 on 1's against Liverpool in 07/08 and made a habit of doing so against most teams that season. With his record of 7 goals in 9 starts up front, would it really be a stretch to suggest he could have gotten 20 over goals if he was a regular starter? Rooney had only managed that once by the time he turned 24 (i.e. the age Welbeck will be next season). This idea that he's just an average player who has a place in the squad because he's a local talent is clearly a bit ridiculous.

Can't be arsed doing the digging but there were loads of threads bemoaning Rooney's errant finishing back then. With lots of comments about how he will "never" be a prolific goal-scorer because he's not a natural finisher. Young player in getting better at football shocker.

When you think back to chances missed over the last 12-18 months, I think you could definitely argue that Welbeck has missed fewer easy chances than both RvP and Hernandez - both players renowned for being lethal in front of goal.
 
But the flaws in his game are obvious. I'm sure Rooney was able to comfortably remain on his feet than receiving the ball. All we have of Welbeck is hope. He "might" turn out to be as good as RVP. But what actual evidence is there?

I don't get what people see in him other than where he comes from. He fails to do the basic so often and people just ignore it on the basis that it's somehow anti-United or sacrilegious not to hold the belief that every single player who we bring through will be awesome. I don't know how a player who is 23/24 and had as much first team experience as he's had gets so many excuses made for him when he evidently lacks so much. I've said before he'd probably make a very good player for most top-flight teams but for our ambitions he won't/can't be any more than a squad player.

He's in the same age bracket of Jones, Rafael, De Gea, Smalling and a not that much younger than Kagawa, and Mata. Now of course not all of those players have made it, but most have. De Gea is already top class. Rafael has been our first choice full-back for ages for a reason. Kagawa and Mata's past/transfer values speak for themselves.

Surely these are who we should judge players against? The only reason why Welbeck and Cleverley have staunch defenders among the fans is precisely because of their background, rather than people judging them unfairly because of it. We're a club with a tradition of bringing through talent, why would anyone have an issue with that? But a time comes when you have to be honest and have something more substantial than the hope he might suddenly one day in his mid or late 20s become exceptional. There needs to be more than that and there needs to be a fairness on judging players regardless of background.

If you look at many in the squad of similar age or younger, he's miles behind most in terms of his personal development.

Quite amazing amount of drivel in that post. Would take a rubber-man multi-quote frenzy to address it all but cannae be arsed...
 
Quite amazing amount of drivel in that post. Would take a rubber-man multi-quote frenzy to address it all but cannae be arsed...


Take a picture, Pogue's made a post where he doesn't give an opinion on anything but just criticises what someone else says. Collectors item that.
 
But the flaws in his game are obvious. I'm sure Rooney was able to comfortably remain on his feet than receiving the ball. All we have of Welbeck is hope. He "might" turn out to be as good as RVP. But what actual evidence is there?

I don't get what people see in him other than where he comes from. He fails to do the basic so often and people just ignore it on the basis that it's somehow anti-United or sacrilegious not to hold the belief that every single player who we bring through will be awesome. I don't know how a player who is 23/24 and had as much first team experience as he's had gets so many excuses made for him when he evidently lacks so much. I've said before he'd probably make a very good player for most top-flight teams but for our ambitions he won't/can't be any more than a squad player.

He's in the same age bracket of Jones, Rafael, De Gea, Smalling and a not that much younger than Kagawa, and Mata. Now of course not all of those players have made it, but most have. De Gea is already top class. Rafael has been our first choice full-back for ages for a reason. Kagawa and Mata's past/transfer values speak for themselves.

Surely these are who we should judge players against? The only reason why Welbeck and Cleverley have staunch defenders among the fans is precisely because of their background, rather than people judging them unfairly because of it. We're a club with a tradition of bringing through talent, why would anyone have an issue with that? But a time comes when you have to be honest and have something more substantial than the hope he might suddenly one day in his mid or late 20s become exceptional. There needs to be more than that and there needs to be a fairness on judging players regardless of background.

If you look at many in the squad of similar age or younger, he's miles behind most in terms of his personal development.

I have no idea how you can group Cleverley and Welbeck together. Welbeck has already had an impact against top international teams and European club sides in two huge tournaments - the Euro's and the CL. In fact he's been one of the best players in the team on occasions like this. I don't think Smalling is any better or more proven than him on any level.

That stuff about it being sacrilegious to criticise a United youth player is just pure nonsense. I've thought Cleverley would be sold back in the summer of 2011 and have always thought he would be no more than a squad player. He'll be lucky to be here next season given his performances this season. I don't have any problems saying that. Welbeck on the other hand has been a class above him at every level and has proven himself as a valuable squad member and someone with the potential to score 20+ goals a season for us while adding plenty to the build-up.
 
I get the point I just think if you look at players of similar age in the squad and their development then there is still a lot of slack cut for Welbeck and I can't see other than his background where it comes from. Cleverley too was in a similar position not so long ago. If you judge him by the progress of his peers at the club (not withstanding outside) then IMO he's far behind where a player in his 24th year with a 170 odd (mostly) senior appearances, should be.
 
Very strange to single out Rafael as setting the bar to which Welbeck should aspire, in this, of all seasons.

Welbeck has shown a clear and marked improvement in the aspect of the game which is most important for the position he plays. Rafael has done the exact opposite.
 
I don't get how people can say Welbeck is shit. Just ask Madrid fans (and now Bayern's). The lad loves big games, he has already been tremendous against Arsenal (home and away), Liverpool twice at home, Madrid (home and away) and now Bayern. His finishing is erratic but he's already improved on that. It's not all about his work-ethic but also running in behind defence - something we lack when he's not playing. He can also lead the line. His technique is very good. The only qualm I have is that he's more of a scorer of great goals than a great goal-scorer but he's still young.

If he can become 20 + goals a season striker then coupled with his other attributes he'll be a massive figure for us for years to come.
 
Danny Wellbeck EPL goals in his career: 20.

All of the above have raked up more than that in one season on several occasions.

Danny Welbeck has scored 26 premier league goals in his career, having started 72 games in a variety of roles up front and out wide. That's a little better than one in three, indeed he's scored a goal every 254 minutes as a premier league player, so even with subs it adds up to, again, a little better than a goal every three games.

All of those players similarly played in a variety of attacking positions earlier in their careers, how do you reckon they did in their first 75 or so games in a major league?

edit: I've been burned by merely implying something before, so I guess I'll just outright state it. No, I don't think Welbeck will become as prolific as Ronaldo and Messi, I'm merely trying to point out that finishing is almost always something that improves with experience, often substantially so.
 
In Luis Suarez' first season and a half at Liverpool he scored 15 goals in 41 premier league starts. By the time Danny Welbeck had played the same number of minutes in the league (3644) he'd scored a comparably meagre 14, though he had admittedly started 42 games.

Working that out was horrendously nerdy, but I reckon it makes something of a point.
 
Aside from his individual ability (which is really brilliant), I like the fact that he is similar to Saha and Park in the way that he makes everyone around him and the team, play much better football. The fluidity and pace he brings to the attack is really valuable, especially in a squad with players like Kagawa, Mata and RvP who do not offer too much direct movement.

Having seen RvP, Rooney, Mata, Januzaj not work so well, albeit only for a few games, I would now like to see a front 4 of Rooney, Welbeck, Kagawa and Mata and see how that gets along.
 
In Luis Suarez' first season and a half at Liverpool he scored 15 goals in 41 premier league starts. By the time Danny Welbeck had played the same number of minutes in the league (3644) he'd scored a comparably meagre 14, though he had admittedly started 42 games.

Working that out was horrendously nerdy, but I reckon it makes something of a point.
Comparing finished article in Suarez (let alone Ronaldo and Messi) to 23yo Welbeck who's been in and out of the team and playing all over the field was a bit dumb on B20's part. Good stats, mate.
 
Can't you justify the inclusion of pretty much anyone, regardless of skill/ability level by saying "ah but at that age X wasn't yet a 30 goal as season striker"?

Schmeichel may not have been the best in the world age 23 but does that justify the inclusion of every keeper out there in their respective teams because "but Schmeichel wasn't world class at 23" (he may have been but just using it as an illustrative example.)

Surely what matters is looking at the peers of his age at United and our domestic and continental rivals. I think it's hard pressed to make a favourable argument for him in that respect.
 
In Luis Suarez' first season and a half at Liverpool he scored 15 goals in 41 premier league starts. By the time Danny Welbeck had played the same number of minutes in the league (3644) he'd scored a comparably meagre 14, though he had admittedly started 42 games.

Working that out was horrendously nerdy, but I reckon it makes something of a point.

Was actually going to mention Suarez in my post about Rooney being someone who was previously hapless in front of goal but learned how to finish.

I remember being really pleased that the buck-toothed fucknuckle seemed to be absolutely pish at finishing in his first 18 months with the dippers. Kept getting in great positions but couldn't put the ball away. Which has completely turned on it's head in the last 12 months or so.

Obviously, the counter to this is his scoring record abroad, where he must have been decent at finishing to rack up so many goals. Danny doesn't have a similar purple patch on his cv but, equally, he hasn't had an opportunity to have a lengthy stint in his preferred position playing in a league where Alfonso fecking Alves can score almost a goal a game!
 
Can't you justify the inclusion of pretty much anyone, regardless of skill/ability level by saying "ah but at that age X wasn't yet a 30 goal as season striker"?

Schmeichel may not have been the best in the world age 23 but does that justify the inclusion of every keeper out there in their respective teams because "but Schmeichel wasn't world class at 23" (he may have been but just using it as an illustrative example.)

Surely what matters is looking at the peers of his age at United and our domestic and continental rivals. I think it's hard pressed to make a favourable argument for him in that respect.

Which peers and why not?
 
Welbeck is becoming a fantastic player as most people expected him to. He will be here for a long time and likely as a very important player.
 
Welbeck is becoming a fantastic player as most people expected him to. He will be here for a long time and likely as a very important player.


Fantastic? Really?

You look at his peers of similar age in the squad and in the league players like Hazard, Oscar, Januzaj, Wilshere, Ramsay or even looking at our European rivals and taking a random selection of 22-25 year old players from the squads of Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern et al, I don't think you can call Welbeck "fantastic" in that company and that's the company he needs to be judged against.

If the argument was 'Welbeck is a very good squad player for us and will continue to be so for years to come' I'd have no arguments but if you start talking about him in terms of being one of the regular first team starters for years to come, I just look at the general talent pool around for the big clubs for players of his age and I think it's a stretch to even claim he's in the same bracket
 
Fantastic? Really?

You look at his peers of similar age in the squad and in the league players like Hazard, Oscar, Januzaj, Wilshere, Ramsay or even looking at our European rivals and taking a random selection of 22-25 year old players from the squads of Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern et al, I don't think you can call Welbeck "fantastic" in that company and that's the company he needs to be judged against.

If the argument was 'Welbeck is a very good squad player for us and will continue to be so for years to come' I'd have no arguments but if you start talking about him in terms of being one of the regular first team starters for years to come, I just look at the general talent pool around for the big clubs for players of his age and I think it's a stretch to even claim he's in the same bracket

Most of those players you compared him with play consistently for their team bar Januzaj. And Welbeck has been much more influential than him this season. When played consistently this season and last in his preferred role, he has been more productive to be labelled "fantastic." Which is a word that is subjective based on your outlook of player's performance.

Your last paragraph, it depends on the competition at United. No developing striking in the world unless they are the next Ronaldo, would get ahead of Rooney and Van Persie. However, if Welbeck keeps getting choosen against the like of Madrid, Bayern, Manchester City and going forward, I expect him to start if we make the finals, he is more than capable of being a regular ala Van Persie and Rooney at United. So, I do not understand the very good squad player argument, when he normally plays well versus the big team.
 
Van Persie's clearly done it more often than Welbeck this season and Rooney when he was younger was every bit as wasteful as Welbeck when 1 on 1. I'm sure he missed 3 genuine 1 on 1's against Liverpool in 07/08 and made a habit of doing so against most teams that season. With his record of 7 goals in 9 starts up front, would it really be a stretch to suggest he could have gotten 20 over goals if he was a regular starter? Rooney had only managed that once by the time he turned 24 (i.e. the age Welbeck will be next season). This idea that he's just an average player who has a place in the squad because he's a local talent is clearly a bit ridiculous.

You've jumped to some stunning hyperbole with your lasts comment.

He's good on the pitch. He's not quality enough to start big games as a striker because he will miss big chances. Until he turns that around, he's a squad player.
 
That's probably because absolutely nobody has said that.
'shit' is shorter than 'probably not good enough to be a striker for a successful United side' and you don't need people calling him shit to see they don't rate him at all.
 
'shit' is shorter than 'probably not good enough to be a striker for a successful United side' and you don't need people calling him shit to see they don't rate him at all.

What people have said is that they don't think he's going to be good enough to be a 1st choice striker for Manchester United. That's not an unreasonable opinion when you consider that Saha and Berbatov didn't cut it there despite both being quite a fair bit better than Welbeck currently is and our really successful first choice strikers in the last 10-15 years have been Van Nistelrooy, Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez and Van Persie. I don't think Welbeck will ever be as good as those five players, is that a controversial opinion now?

You need to be really damn good to make it as the first choice striker at our club.
 
You've jumped to some stunning hyperbole with your lasts comment.

He's good on the pitch. He's not quality enough to start big games as a striker because he will miss big chances. Until he turns that around, he's a squad player.

This. I know people can highlight RvP and Rooney's big misses over the years on the big occasions, but the fact of the matter is they are more likely to amend that mistake and get it right the second time, if they didn't do so on the first. If Welbeck can just learn to be a dangerman in the box, then he can become an absolutely cracking striker; but at this current moment in time he is someone who we play out wide and who can drag us up the pitch quicker than others, something we can find elsewhere who would be playing in their natural position.
 
What people have said is that they don't think he's going to be good enough to be a 1st choice striker for Manchester United. That's not an unreasonable opinion when you consider that Saha and Berbatov didn't cut it there despite both being quite a fair bit better than Welbeck currently is and our really successful first choice strikers in the last 10-15 years have been Van Nistelrooy, Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez and Van Persie. I don't think Welbeck will ever be as good as those five players, is that a controversial opinion now?

You need to be really damn good to make it as the first choice striker at our club.
Based on his performance he can became better than Berba and Saha were at United. Both were terrific players but one didn't fit in and the other was made of glass.
 
Love that somebody is using Ramsey as a player Welbeck isn't 'fantastic' next to... The player that was getting Cleverleyesque abuse from Arsenal fans last season
 
The hatred of Welbeck really is hilarious. If he was playing at another club we'd be praising him to the fecking rafters.
 
The hatred of Welbeck really is hilarious. If he was playing at another club we'd be praising him to the fecking rafters.

Weird comment when most fans of other clubs don't rate him at all.

Based on his performance he can became better than Berba and Saha were at United. Both were terrific players but one didn't fit in and the other was made of glass.

He needs to reach Rooney, RVP, Ronaldo, Tevez, RVN level though no? because Berbatov and Saha weren't good enough.
 
Weird comment when most fans of other clubs don't rate him at all.

Don't know what fans you're talking to but the ones I've spoken to think he's good. Quick, has all the tricks, just needs to convert more and he'll be a high quality striker. A couple of Chelsea fans I know would kill for him in their team.
 
Don't know what fans you're talking to but the ones I've spoken to think he's good. Quick, has all the tricks, just needs to convert more and he'll be a high quality striker. A couple of Chelsea fans I know would kill for him in their team.

Most people I know in real life or on other forums think he's a bit crap, they underrate him.

I'm sure they're a lot more eager to get Falcao or Diego Costa though. There's a lot of players better than Chelsea's current strikers.
 
Most people I know in real life or on other forums think he's a bit crap, they underrate him.

I'm sure they're a lot more eager to get Falcao or Diego Costa though. There's a lot of players better than Chelsea's current strikers.
Well most people underrate him because of his finishing. It's improved this year but he still not quite there. As a striker people will always look at the goals you score. He may have his all round game sorted and pretty decent but as long as his finishing doesn't cut it then people will forever not acknowledge him as a great player.

I for one think that his finishing can be improved if he get regular game time as a striker. Of course one has to be a natural finisher to make it as a striker(something that Welbeck seems to lack) but with hard work and consistent playing time I believe one can manage to reach a good level as a striker
 
“Danny has the fear factor because he has the ability to run away from people ,” added Moyes. “He’s got really strong upper body strength, which sometimes people don’t give him credit for.

“I think there have always been questions about his finishing when he gets in, and you would back that up with the other night. This year I think he’s looked more lively. Last year, he only scored two goals. But this year you would say he’s had a contribution and his goals (he has scored 10) have been important to us, so I’d like to think he’s got better this year.

“I think he’s got better and improved. He’s one of these boys that can play as a wide striker and football’s beginning to become a little bit more flexible in terms of how people play. It’s maybe not as rigid as before and is more flexible in terms of how you title people in terms of their position, and I think Danny could be classed as a centre forward but also as a wide striker too.

“Danny has come in and done really well. He played well in midweek. I was more annoyed about Danny’s miss in that I thought what an opportunity. I thought go on and slot it in. I actually thought the goalkeeper gave him a little bit to the side. I was more disappointed that he didn’t take because it was a big chance in a game like that.

“We knew how their goalkeeper stands tall and stands up for a long time. So I was annoyed that he hadn’t gone on and passed it round him down the side of him.

“Forwards do that. If he had passed it and the keeper had saved it you might have thought ‘Why did you not chip it Danny or tried something else?’ With forward players you have to give them the licence to take it on in the moment themselves and take on the responsibility of what they do in their finishing.”

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...k/sport/danny-welbeck-fear-factor-can-6922106

A lot of praise for Danny there. With Rooney's injury this could be his big break, lets hope he can step up!
 
Well most people underrate him because of his finishing. It's improved this year but he still not quite there. As a striker people will always look at the goals you score. He may have his all round game sorted and pretty decent but as long as his finishing doesn't cut it then people will forever not acknowledge him as a great player.

I for one think that his finishing can be improved if he get regular game time as a striker. Of course one has to be a natural finisher to make it as a striker(something that Welbeck seems to lack) but with hard work and consistent playing time I believe one can manage to reach a good level as a striker

There is no doubt he can reach a good level and be an asset for us. But, like some others here, I can't see him ever reach the same level as RVP and Rooney and as I have hopes that we can be the best PL side and challange the best teams for the CL on a consistent basis, I think he will have to settle for a role as a back up striker.
 
It's a great chance to further build on his form and Newcastle is struggling. He need to give this a real go.

Yup, he can get his chance up front now. I really like him as a lone striker, and with Mata and Kagawa in around him will be great to watch. With his running and his interplay, he should give us something different.
 
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