I always expected him to transition into a different type of role. But yeah, his physical ability is still so high it hasn't precipitated that. Maybe a couple more injuries and fatigue through the season but when fit, never seems lacking
Cristiano Ronaldo : The Juventus Chapter | Fin
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For the first time in about a decade im leaning towards Ronaldo on this debate. Ive always felt it was terribly close, much closer than what Messi fans would have you believe but my point is Messi is a bit of a fair weather player where as Ronaldo isn't.
When things go terribly wrong for Messi's team he doesnt seem to pose much of a threat. We've seen it multiple times in the CL and when he plays for Argentina. Anfield being the latest installment of this. Ronaldo on the other hand seems to carry a huge threat regardless of how his team is playing.
Of course even Cristiano is affected by how well or poorly his team is playing but i just dont think its to the same extent. I find it amazing that Messi has never scored in a match where Barca have been knocked out of the CL. That says alot imo.
When things go terribly wrong for Messi's team he doesnt seem to pose much of a threat. We've seen it multiple times in the CL and when he plays for Argentina. Anfield being the latest installment of this. Ronaldo on the other hand seems to carry a huge threat regardless of how his team is playing.
Of course even Cristiano is affected by how well or poorly his team is playing but i just dont think its to the same extent. I find it amazing that Messi has never scored in a match where Barca have been knocked out of the CL. That says alot imo.
Messi created EVERY single opportunity Barca had in that second leg. Literally every single on
Barca blowing a 3 goal lead isn’t messi’s fault, he was comfortably their best player (even in the second leg) and the best CL player overall last year
Did you feel like he was going to save them?
What debate is this exactly that you're referring to?
Thanks for proving what I was saying
Fortunate? You can get lucky or unlucky in one tournament. Not across a 16+ years career... luck evens out. You're just focusing on the times things went his way while ignoring all the times it didn't.
Your last paragraph pretty much sums it up.
The bold is obviously an exaggeration but why do you think that's the case? You genuinely believe that what you're mentioning there is down to luck and it has nothing to do with the way they play at all? Really? Even though that according to yourself it's something that repeatedly happens through a long time period? That feels more like magic than luck.
In actuality his impact on the game when he's having a quiet game is still pretty big and he doesn't need to have the ball often for that to happen which means other teammates are more likely to shine. Out of the two Ronaldo's much more likely to be the one successfully adapting to the teammates around him too.
I think Ronaldo has had more luck in that EVERY thing went his way from 2014 onward for the most part. How many other players can have their #1 player go missing in a Final and win the trophy EVERY time?! I can't think of any other sport, let alone football player you can say that about.
Also, Pep is an all time great manager, but after that Ronaldo's had the better mangers in La Liga and I'd take the current Portugal coach over any recent Argentina coach since Sabella.
Pep struggles mightily to win CL without Messi and we have yet to see Zidane without Ronaldo although it isn't looking great so far for him. Enrique and Valverde win because of Messi not the other way around.
As far as adaptation goes, I give credit to Ronaldo for evolving his game as time goes on but Messi has also had to fluctuate depending on what the team needs. Whether it was to accomodate Suarez or play deeper for Argentina due to a pathetic midfield his work load for Barca is always intense yet his positioning has certainly fluctuated throughout his career:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2769753-leo-messi-30-how-he-has-reinvented-his-game
Obviously the Messi vs Ronaldo debate
In that first half I honestly did. I could sympathize more so if he scored zilch in that tie but when you score 3 goals past a team you should have it in the bag. I'm not saying it isn't disappointing to see the whole team flounder in that pathetic second leg, but in that first half Barca were looking good but in the second half after the second goal by Gini the defense for Barca got too panicky and Valverde panicked like he did against Roma.
Ronaldo also got bounced by a team that were pretty big under dogs on paper. He scored the same amount of goals in his tie that Messi did and Messi did it against a tougher team in that first leg. I don't see either of them as the main culprits for being sent home. They both needed more support. A bizarre thing to say for 2 of the 5 biggest clubs in the world, but unlike Basketball football is always going to be a team sport. Even the Maradonna myth that he single handedly carried Argentina to the '86 WC isn't true even if he was their best player. Everyone has to step up in this sport.
Also I’m gonna step out of this thread for a bit guys as I don’t wanna bring up Messi vs Ronaldo as we already have a thread for that. My bad.
I wouldn't use the word "fortunate" to describe someone who has already scored nearly 700 goals in his career, breaking all records along the way. But one could argue winning any titles (especially cup competitions) always need some luck, and that applies to everyone else (including Maradona's hand of GOD in 86 WC, Pele's Brazil with golden generation teammates, Messi's Barca with Iniesta/ Xavi or Neymar/Suarez etc can all be considered as factors of luck/fortune), but somehow I would say Ronaldo is unfortunate that he never managed to win any WC, should he play in more decent side, I am not even talking about France or Spain in past decades or so, he would have already won it. Sure that applies to Messi too.
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I think the explanation is more straightforward. Ronaldo is essentially a centre-forward where the onus is on the whole team to create chances; he can be quiet but the team can still flourish. With Messi's teams the onus is on him to create so when he falters the whole team struggles. And you have to blame Messi's managers for setting up teams like that. If you had talent like him, it would seem an easy option to and works over a league campaign but in knockouts can be costly.
Just seen his goal the other day, that finish was a thing of beauty.
Is a disservice for both Ronaldo and Messi if you think about it, and like you said is a very lazy summary. As a professional he's very disciplined but Messi is also a top professional and both are talented players that have accomplished what they have through a lot of dedication and a competitive mentality. Talent alone won't get you as far as what Ronaldo has accomplished.
Ok, just wanted to be sure as there is a separate thread for that.
My personal opinion is that there's no reason to debate. They are both footballing gods, of distinct domain, who can be appreciated much the same way we regard red and white wine.
Yeah but white wine is clearly a more adaptable and versatile wine that has proven itself to work just as well with different meals and social situations. Sure everyone likes a sauvignon with a Chateaubriand steak but could you really drink it on a wet Wednesday night in Stoke?
Hopefully he joins the Illustrious 700 goals club tonight
1. Josef Bican - 805
2. Romario - 772
3. Pele - 767
4. Ferenc Puskas - 746
5. Gerd Muller - 735
6. Cristiano - 699
Not too shabby for the one trick pony from Madeira, who's "not as naturally talented" as the other greats.
1. Josef Bican - 805
2. Romario - 772
3. Pele - 767
4. Ferenc Puskas - 746
5. Gerd Muller - 735
6. Cristiano - 699
Not too shabby for the one trick pony from Madeira, who's "not as naturally talented" as the other greats.
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He wouldn't and has shown it multiple times he just does not have it in him to do it he is mentally "weal" when the going gets tough where as Ronaldo thrives on it.
Take last season for example with Atletico having a 2 goal lead in the tie vs Juve, You just KNEW(KNOW) Ronaldo was going to go and get a hat trick because he thrives on these big moments. Messi would not have scored a hat trick to get his team through he just does not have that mental make up and fortitude that Ronaldo has. That to me defines greatness. When the going gets tough, when its the big occasion, when your team needs you most, what do you do? Atletico vs Juve Portugal vs Spain down 3-2 in the dying minutes of a game, vs Wolfsburg, Portugal vs Sweden, and the list can keep going....he is just made for these moments.
So you must've thought Ronaldo was not great at all and mentally weak until the latter part of his career?
Yeah, it’s not like Ronaldo had enough clutch moments earlier in his career...
He always had IT but didn't always show it. As he got older it was better then when he was younger which is obvious because he was a "baby". Even then he showed glimpses of it at United as well. Think the Porto tie in 08, Vs Spurs that same year.
The point is One clearly has it while the other does not.
In terms of mentality and big game moments when your team needs you most Messi simply can not be mentioned in the same breath as CR7. It's the one thing despite his magnificent talent that he just does not have and it can not be taught. Either you have it or you don't and...He does not.
Even his run against Fulham (87th minute) in the 06/07 season was that kind of moment. It basically won United the title that year.
Ya that's a good shout as well, he was young so obviously he was not at the level as when he got older and really developed that ability even more.
Like I said he lives for the bright lights, the big game moments, the newspaper headlines etc. That free kick vs Spain you knew it was a goal the moment he stepped up to take it the hat trick vs atletico, the tie vs Sweden where he scored all 4 of Portugal goals in that tie, the list goes on man, he just has IT and its hard to explain what that is but you just know when someone has it. Like I said previous times Mental fortitude and winning mentality like his I can only compare to MJ and Brady.
@SirAF I've only just seen his goal from Friday. My word he is just magnificent 
He is absolutely a big time player but if we are being honest when it comes to the finals he’s been far more ordinary/lacklustre than great.
brady and mj did it on the BIGGEST stage which were their respective finals
@SirAF I've only just seen his goal from Friday. My word he is just magnificent
It was a lovely dink.
As did Ronaldo. Maybe not always brilliant displays but still decisive,
Scored United's only goal vs Chelsea in 08
2 goals vs Juve in 17 final
Winning penalty vs Atletico in 16 final (before you try to disvalue this remember that there is a pretty high chance Messi would miss this based on his past situations).
14 and 18 finals I agree he was poor for the most part.
Then you have to remember that in every single one of those finals they would have not got there without Ronaldo. Who almost single handedly kills off ties leading into the Final.
We are talking about a guy who has more knockout goals than anybody and has more goals in the latter stages of the competitions compared to the group stage. They don't sniff a CL final without Ronaldo.
Also before we continue any further Let me be clear in saying that I am not "talking shit" about Messi. This part of his game is a known fact and there is no point trying to hide or sugar coat it. This is an area in his and Ronaldos game where Ronaldo is head and shoulders above the little magician.
Scored the goal in the Champions League Final too.
he was also quite poor in 2016 final as well and nations league final and obviously euro final he was injured. He was superb in 2017 final no doubt
and Ronaldo has missed plenty of important penalties as well like Bayern in CL prior to his crazy run in the years afterward and some crucial group stage matches in euro and World Cup but obviously is a far better penalty taker than Messi
having said that Madrid scorer EVERY penalty on 2016 prior to Ronaldo going up, it wasn’t like if he missed they’d lose the title. Oblak was awful on those.
I think Ronaldo is the greatest CL player ever, but on the absolute biggest stage he’s been very underwhelming contrary to his reputation as a (rightful) big time player
Love how hungry he still is at 33.
He looks "younger" this season too I hope he gets his 700th goal today it would be a great achievement.
Absolutely no one predicted Ronaldo would become as decisive in big moments as he did in his 30s. The argument for Ronaldo back then was that you couldn't possibly expect him to be decisive on such a regular basis - your idea that he "always had IT but didn't always show it" is pure fantasy. Take this conversation as an example, back when he was a 28 year old "baby":
NoPace said:
crappycrapperson said:
Brwned said:
Or it would go one step further and the argument was all about Ronaldo's movement, his invisible contribution to the attacking line - judging him on decisive goals was just silly, apparently.
Treble said:
It's all here.
Why be insincere about it? Ronaldo will be defined by that decisiveness, absolutely - even if it only was for a short period of his career. And that decisiveness in that short period is right up there with the best there's been. But you have to stretch that point until it has no credibility, no basis in reality - why?
We know what Ronaldo was like at United - exceptional overall, but not remotely exceptional in big games, or in crunch moments. He absolutely didn't live for them. Up until his last season here, the only remaining criticism of him was his big game performances. He did pretty well on that front in 08/09, but his last ever performance for us underlined the fact it was a long way off being a strength of his, never mind something to define him by. And that continued through the Pellegrini and Mourinho years at Madrid.
It was a relatively sudden turnaround when his reputation went from "flat track bully" to "the player for the big moment". That's something to celebrate now but let's not rewrite history. At least wait a decade to tell it to folks that didn't watch him.
Paratici just said that Cristiano is going to stay at Juve until 2021 at least, so no new pastures or retirement next Summer.
That was never on!
The moment he got to Madrid he began to show it. He scored the winning goal in the 10/11 copa final and in the series against Bayern where he did miss a penalty but his 2 goals brought him to that point. He also has the record for most consecutive goals in el Classico and against Barca in general and almost always scored in any derby game. In 2012 euros he single handedly brought us to the semis knocking out Netherlands and the Czechs in the process. So no I have to disagree with you m. Was he as “clutch” as he is now? No. But ever since he got to Madrid he became THAT guy. Only the semis vs Barca in 2011 was when I remember him completely NOT showing up but that was against the greatest Team of all time in there absolute prime so I can say I am more “lenient” towards it.
In United he lacked it but once he got to Madrid he turned into a completely different animal.
700
Amazing
I feel like there were elements of Messi’s celebration in this one.
I know some people are saying it’s a harsh pen (certainly a harsh yellow) but damn if the placement and power wasn’t an absolute rocket. No goalie would’ve saved that:
I know some people are saying it’s a harsh pen (certainly a harsh yellow) but damn if the placement and power wasn’t an absolute rocket. No goalie would’ve saved that:
Congrats for him, though it feels kinda weird they lost and no one on the social media talking about anything bar his goal.
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