Cristiano Ronaldo - Much Ado About Al Nassr

[Stadjer]

Im not really sure i see that massive difference. Ronnie has 140 goals and 41 assists in 183 apps. Messi has 129 goals and 40 assists in in 163 apps. Messi has a better g/g ratio as well as a goal pr. Minute ratio and an overall higher goal contribution pr. Match.

Considering that someone like Messi has individually performed incredibly well in the cl and the only reason why Ronaldo has more goals is that he has played around 150 90 minutes worth of games more than Messi overall in their careers.

He's done this and still won WC best player twice and won gold once and silver once.

I think Ronaldo deserves his Mr. CL Moniker but its on fine margins at the end of day.

And when we had the European cup, you cant accuse Cryuff, Müller and Beckenbauer for not showing up at the WC.

Im suprised to see that Ronaldo has more assists than Messi even if he played quite a few games more. I dont think Ronaldo was anywhere near Messi as a creater/creative player.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Im suprised to see that Ronaldo has more assists than Messi even if he played quite a few games more. I dont think Ronaldo was anywhere near Messi as a creater/creative player.

I remember people bigging up Ronaldo's Euro 2016 as 3 goals and 3 assists, two of them people were counting were mishit shots. Meanwhile, two of Messi's assists in the 2022 World Cup for example were two of the best in the history of the competition - a defence-splitting pass against Netherlands and a dribble down the length of the wing against Croatia. On paper, they would both be just down as two assists each. The problem with stats without context.

 

[Kwabs]

Like I said before up to the point where Messi and Ronaldo started to dominate the discussion about who is the best in the world. Cruyff was widely regarded as being one of the top players of all time, usually included in the 3 with Pele and Maradona.

I don't think Cruyff is the best player ever. Messi for me is probably the best player ever. But, Cruyff can be in the conversation, as these things are entirely subjective and down to personal choices. So, if someone were to say to me, "I think Cruyff is the best player ever". I wouldn't start introducing qualifiers like "he never scored or assisted in the knockout stages of the world cup" to try and remove him from consideration.

I clearly remember the discussion and Cruyff was never in it. It was always, "who is the greatest, Pele or Maradona?" That's what it was before Messi v Ronaldo. No one ever seriously considered Cruyff to be the greatest (other than maybe some Dutch people and a few others, but i'm talking about common consensus), and part of the reason was the World Cup.

Ronaldo has the advantage of the Champions League growing so much in importance in the modern era, so he can kind of mask his World Cup failures (which are much worse than Cruyff's) in a way that Cruyff couldn't (Cruyff also 'threepeated' in the European Cup, but the European Cup didn't have the pull then that the CL has now, for various reasons).

But as time goes on, and Ronaldo's PR subsides, that gaping hole in his resume will only become more apparent to posterity.

 

[Kwabs]

Well Pele and Messi haven't done what Ronaldo's done either, and that was the original post I replied to.

Erm yes they have. What haven't they done? I mean, actual notable things, not holding this or that goalscoring record, because they all hold records that the others don't. That's not important. Plus Pele played mostly in totally different competitions.

 

[Wand of a right foot]

Disingenuous to narrow Ronaldo down to just a profilic goalscorer isn't it?

Unprecedented (that means no ones ever done it before) performances in the actual greatest football competition in the world (Champions League), breaking multiple records in that competition. Being the top scorer in his country's first ever tournament win.

I'm not in no Ronaldo or Messi camp, I find that argument boring. But there's some downplaying of Ronaldo thats unfair in my opinion. To just say loads of players have done what he's done is insane in my opinion.

You're exaggerating. His only truly memorable performances (regardless of his goals) were:
Vs Roma home 06/07
Vs Arsenal away 08/09
Vs Juve 17/18
Vs Atletico 18/19
And even these weren't exactly "unprecedented"
For the most part in the UCL even in his prime, it was the goals. Nothing wrong with that but certainly nothing "unprecedented".

Plus Messi actually has a better goal to game ratio. He could have surpassed Ronaldo's total but he decided to leave Europe on history own terms instead of being rejected by everyone and their dog.

 

[Bubz27]

You're exaggerating. His only truly memorable performances (regardless of his goals) were:
Vs Roma home 06/07
Vs Arsenal away 08/09
Vs Juve 17/18
Vs Atletico 18/19
And even these weren't exactly "unprecedented"
For the most part in the UCL even in his prime, it was the goals. Nothing wrong with that but certainly nothing "unprecedented".

Plus Messi actually has a better goal to game ratio. He could have surpassed Ronaldo's total but he decided to leave Europe on history own terms instead of being rejected by everyone and their dog.

My entire point in one post. Forget about being THE player in the only team to win the CL back to back to back or holding the scoring record for the CL single season (both unprecedented, right?).

But that last sentence, a complete disrespect to a modern great. I doubt you'd ever disrespect Messi going to PSG when he did and performing how he did there.

 

[yeaherino]

You're exaggerating. His only truly memorable performances (regardless of his goals) were:
Vs Roma home 06/07
Vs Arsenal away 08/09
Vs Juve 17/18
Vs Atletico 18/19
And even these weren't exactly "unprecedented"
For the most part in the UCL even in his prime, it was the goals. Nothing wrong with that but certainly nothing "unprecedented".

Plus Messi actually has a better goal to game ratio. He could have surpassed Ronaldo's total but he decided to leave Europe on history own terms instead of being rejected by everyone and their dog.

Bayern? 17?
Mickey 23?

 

[Fobal]

Im suprised to see that Ronaldo has more assists than Messi even if he played quite a few games more. I dont think Ronaldo was anywhere near Messi as a creater/creative player.

Suarez has lots of asists too, this does not mean neither of him or CR played in the way/role/from the positions and against the usual squemes Messi did it, that it's quite a different enviroment.

 

[Fobal]

I clearly remember the discussion and Cruyff was never in it. It was always, "who is the greatest, Pele or Maradona?" That's what it was before Messi v Ronaldo. No one ever seriously considered Cruyff to be the greatest (other than maybe some Dutch people and a few others, but i'm talking about common consensus), and part of the reason was the World Cup.

Ronaldo has the advantage of the Champions League growing so much in importance in the modern era, so he can kind of mask his World Cup failures (which are much worse than Cruyff's) in a way that Cruyff couldn't (Cruyff also 'threepeated' in the European Cup, but the European Cup didn't have the pull then that the CL has now, for various reasons).

But as time goes on, and Ronaldo's PR subsides, that gaping hole in his resume will only become more apparent to posterity.

That's simply not true...(same with Di Stefano, his predecesor in loose terms of characteristics)...which doesn't mean that nowadays he might (sadly) be even forgotten

...and the reasons behind a certain consensus of considering someone the best ever, aren't normally strictly football realted as everything that happens in this game. Like the other poster said, there is no issue, or better said should have been no issue if someone preffers among evryone Cryuff as a player.

At the end of the day, no one would ever discuss the ammount of weight (and tons of romanticism) given to WCs and how this transforms the image and weight of a players carreer, yet man, just relax if someone does not thing that notion to be that important within his personal taste.

 

[Wand of a right foot]

My entire point in one post. Forget about being THE player in the only team to win the CL back to back to back or holding the scoring record for the CL single season (both unprecedented, right?).

But that last sentence, a complete disrespect to a modern great. I doubt you'd ever disrespect Messi going to PSG when he did and performing how he did there.

I don't think you get the point here. Ronaldo, even at the height of his powers (2007 to 2014), was a goalscorer; even though his allround play during that time was at a good level, the goals were by far the most important thing he contributed on the pitch. He wasnt a great dribbler (around 2 to 2.5 completed per game is good, nothing great), he wasn't a great passer or playmaker and he contributed nothing defensively or interms of pressing. Therefore, whether you like it or not, Ronaldo will always be synonymous with goals rather than great allround play. There is nothing wrong with that and it certainly isnt an insult.

Also, what is fact is that by the time Real won those 3 title, Ronaldo had already transformed into an almost pure goalscorer (some might say poacher) given his general play had deteriorated significantly after he turned 30.

That Real was successful in the UCL was down to having a very strong team (Ronaldo had world class teammates in every position who played big roles as did Ronaldo) and their traditional luck/ win against the odds tendencies in the competition. Real were outplayed so many times only to get a last minute winner or a goal out of nothing; If it wasnt Ronaldo scoring, it was Benzema or Kroos or Modric or Ramos or Bale eg 2016 final, 2018 final etc Something they've repeated twice since then. One can claim that Ronaldo benefited from playing there probably more than they benefited from having him there. Benezema had an almost identical season to Ronaldo’s 16/17 season in the UCL. Last season, other players did what Ronaldo did in those 3 seasons; score crucial goals.

Messi went to PSG at age 34, struggled in the first season due to alot of factors (himself and his family weren't settled, he went there against his will, he had to adapt to a competely new environment/city/country/club), was arguably theirs best player in the first half of his second season (almost like preparing for the world cup) then stopped giving a f*** after the world cup. Simple as. PSG project was something Messi never really warmed up to. I have no issues if people say he was below par because he was apart from pre-world cup half season.

 

[Acrobat7]

Of course it is. Of course it is.

I'm bowing out of this conversation because I'm not getting dragged into a Ronaldo v Messi type debate. That was never my original point, at no point have I really compared the two or others. All I said is Ronaldo is harshly judged nowadays. That's it.

Again, calling him „not top 5 all time“ isn’t exactly judging him harshly. Being somewhere between 6 and 10 when millions have played the game is „quite good“.