Could Norway be banned from WC? FIFA threatens

[Handré1990]

https://nordics.info/show/artikel/the-colonialism-of-denmark-norway-and-its-legacies/

https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9789004363045/BP000007.xml

https://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/...s-keeping-norway-in-top-20-arms-exporter-list

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependencies_of_Norway#:~:text=Norway has three dependent territories,and the 45th meridian east.

Like, are you for real? First link, Denmark mentioned, Norway was a colony to Denmark, but I’m going to go ahead and assume you didn’t know that.

Link 2 I’ve read. Show me anywhere in the world an indigenous minority is treated with as much reverence as the sami. The history is ugly, no doubt. Now we are an example to follow in this regard.

Link 3, totally with you.

Link 4 uninhabited dependencies, what does that have to do with anything?

Since you really gave no valuable insight, and keep spouting unsubstantiated nonsense I think we’ll leave it at that. Google, what a joke. I thought I was conversing with someone on somewhat equal footing here, I was terribly mistaken.

All of this had feck all to do with fotballers showing some social conscience, but it was wild ride.

 

[Morty_]

Dont worry, no chance we will qualify anyway, absolutely none.

 

[stevoc]

Ah there is it, the good ol' whataboutisms. Non-Western countries should change their behaviors but Western countries can continue exporting arms and avoid scrutiny.

These thread are full to the brim with them let's be fair.

I personally don't think western powers should sell arms to brutal regimes and dictatorships around the world. I would hazard a guess that some or maybe even all of the people behind this boycott idea probably share that sentiment.

The point isn't that nobody must speak about evil, the point is that Western audiences like their selective moral outrage. They tend to not hold their own governments and intelligence agencies accountable.

That's exactly my point though, some seem to think no one in the West should speak out about anything until they first right every wrong committed by all Western governments past and present.

It's a nonsensical and tedious argument that leads nowhere.

 

[stevoc]

The misdeeds are not hundreds years old. Some are very recent. Iraq war was just a decade ago. War in Yemen is still going on.

Your original point was about Slavery and European Colonialism and that's what I've been discussing. Yeah bad shit happened in Iraq no doubt, would boycotting a World Cup in US/UK save any of those people in Iraq?

Also. What would you say to this.

https://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/...s-keeping-norway-in-top-20-arms-exporter-list

I would say unless it's the Norwegian FA selling the arms then what's the relevance?

 

[VorZakone]

These thread are full to the brim with them let's be fair.



That's exactly my point though, some seem to think no one in the West should speak out about anything until they first right every wrong committed by all Western governments past and present.

The Western public doesn't even try that though. It enjoys taking the moral high ground against non-Western countries and then justify a hospital bombing in Iraq as "collateral damage in stressful war zones".

 

[Jibbs]

Your original point was about Slavery and European Colonialism and that's what I've been discussing. Yeah bad shit happened in Iraq no doubt, would boycotting a World Cup in US/UK save any of those people in Iraq?



I would say unless it's the Norwegian FA selling the arms then what's the relevance?

So how is it relevant that presenting fake news about thousands of workers getting killed. Do you ever considered the figures how many died building Wembley or the stadiums in Russia.
It is obvious whenever a massive infrastructure project is built, workers die. The numbers in the UK media stated are grossly over exaggerated. And stems from nothing but white supremacists and savior beliefs.

 

[Jibbs]

Like, are you for real? First link, Denmark mentioned, Norway was a colony to Denmark, but I’m going to go ahead and assume you didn’t know that.

Link 2 I’ve read. Show me anywhere in the world an indigenous minority is treated with as much reverence as the sami. The history is ugly, no doubt. Now we are an example to follow in this regard.

Link 3, totally with you.

Link 4 uninhabited dependencies, what does that have to do with anything?

Since you really gave no valuable insight, and keep spouting unsubstantiated nonsense I think we’ll leave it at that. Google, what a joke. I thought I was conversing with someone on somewhat equal footing here, I was terribly mistaken.

All of this had feck all to do with fotballers showing some social conscience, but it was wild ride.

Yet none of things Qatar has involved with. They never ever had any colonial tendencies, they themselves were a british colony only 50 years ago. They have never occupied any territory inhabited or deserted.
Their humanitarian record when it comes to immigrant workers is bad. But they have never been directly involved in a conflict or attacked any country unlike your European neighbours.
Norway itself has anti immigrant sentiments among its population.

Point is, charity begins at home. How about you correct yourself first and your neighbours before pointing fingers at countries who are still developing. At least they are not building their infrastructure on slave labor.

 

[Matriac]

Yet none of things Qatar has involved with. They never ever had any colonial tendencies, they themselves were a british colony only 50 years ago. They have never occupied any territory inhabited or deserted.
Their humanitarian record when it comes to immigrant workers is bad. But they have never been directly involved in a conflict or attacked any country unlike your European neighbours.
Norway itself has anti immigrant sentiments among its population.

Point is, charity begins at home. How about you correct yourself first and your neighbours before pointing fingers at countries who are still developing. At least they are not building their infrastructure on slave labor.

We have a political party or two that are quite loudly against immigration, the right leaning politics over (especially) the western world is quite harrowing everywhere.

But among the population of Norway the attitude towards immigration is quite positive, and has been increasing.

https://www.ssb.no/en/befolkning/innvandrere/statistikk/holdninger-til-innvandrere-og-innvandring

 

[Handré1990]

Yet none of things Qatar has involved with. They never ever had any colonial tendencies, they themselves were a british colony only 50 years ago. They have never occupied any territory inhabited or deserted.
Their humanitarian record when it comes to immigrant workers is bad. But they have never been directly involved in a conflict or attacked any country unlike your European neighbours.
Norway itself has anti immigrant sentiments among its population.

Point is, charity begins at home. How about you correct yourself first and your neighbours before pointing fingers at countries who are still developing. At least they are not building their infrastructure on slave labor.

Huh, did I wake up in an alternate universe? Or perhaps the death of irony, I don‘t understand your train of thought. I can‘t even guess to which country you refer.

Since you’ve just doubled down with new loose accusations as the ending of your reply, making no effort to admit you lack a firm grasp on a lot of the history you throw in the mix, I’ll conclude that I was right to say we’re done. Denmark, Norway, the US, Great Britain, we’re all the same really. Good luck to you sir.

 

[stevoc]

So how is it relevant that presenting fake news about thousands of workers getting killed.

What is this fake news and who is presenting it exactly?

Do you ever considered the figures how many died building Wembley or the stadiums in Russia.
It is obvious whenever a massive infrastructure project is built, workers die. The numbers in the UK media stated are grossly over exaggerated.

Russia no idea, as far as I remember there was one person who died during the construction of Wembley stadium and the firm that was responsible for the accident were fined £150,000.

Do you think anyone in Qatar gets fined £150,000 every time a construction worker dies over there?

And stems from nothing but white supremacists and savior beliefs.

Ah so anyone who speaks out about the terrible working conditions in Qatar and criticizes the Qatari government for the deaths of thousands of migrant workers is a white supremacist. Yeah ok.

 

[stevoc]

The Western public doesn't even try that though. It enjoys taking the moral high ground against non-Western countries and then justify a hospital bombing in Iraq as "collateral damage in stressful war zones".

So no one in the West ever speaks out against the bad shit Western Governments do or have done in the past?

You've never seen or heard of Anti-War protests in the US and Europe?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War

You've never seen or heard of campaigns to get enquiries into atrocities and unlawful killings carried out by Western Militaries?

http://www.ballymurphymassacre.com/campaign.htm

You've never seen or heard of campaigns to try to get the UK and other western governments to stop selling arms to the likes of Saudi Arabia?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...to-resume-selling-arms-to-saudi-in-high-court

Are you for real?

 

[alexthelion]

It's a shame that I had to point it out when it was so obvious. Fun fact: Did you know the UK has an arms deal with Saudi Arabia, a country with human rights records far worse than Qatar? Nope? Didn't think so.

I think solid efforts should be made to improve working conditions in Qatar and general living conditions in Israel. Boycotting is never a solution. It does not solve the actual problem.

What has to do with playing a football tournament in Qatar?

 

[alexthelion]

Noy Defending Qatar, exposing the hypocrisy muddled in racism.
Most European countries have colonial past which they are not even ashamed of. Millions die every year across the world because of direct consequences of colonialism. In this respect the world should boycott all EU countries.

FFS, now I've seen everything.

 

[Sky1981]

What defines slave labors? Serious question.

Being chained and whipped? Abducted from home country and forced to build bricks? Are they being forced to work on sick days? Are they not being fed adequately? Can workers quit if they feel sick? Can they stop working at anytime if they're sick without physical abuse?

Passport being held is quite common when you're overseas workers under contracts. You can quit anytime in most conditions. Financial penalties might applies at worst. Most of overseas labors are under 3rd party sub contractors. The money man wont want to deal with the haslle and muscle.

Off course building a stadium in the dessert is a hazardous job and might ended up with people dying. I dont agree with doing it for a stupid sport events that could have been held somewhere else. But slave labor?

 

[Mshafeek]

Straight out hypocrisy and holier than thou attitude. Where was this outrage for the last 2 WCs? Qatar is far better in any respect than both Brazil and Russia. If Norway had any guts, they would have campaigned against Russia, not a tiny country like Qatar.
And shamelessly peddling blatant lies by the likes of Guardian, who are supposed to be fair. Taking a figure for total deaths over a period, which the concerned embassies/govts have clarified as expected/normal, and shamelessly spreading it as being related to the WC.
Now, I am not at all saying countries in the Middle East, including Qatar, need not bring in labor reforms. But that is another issue, that is not exclusive to Qatar or even the ME, and need to be campaigned for separately. Threatening boycott in such a dishonest manner reeks of hypocrisy. Probably islamophobia in this case.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/qatar-world-cup-migrant-labour-critics-spinning-facts

 

[Cheimoon]

It's a shame that I had to point it out when it was so obvious. Fun fact: Did you know the UK has an arms deal with Saudi Arabia, a country with human rights records far worse than Qatar? Nope? Didn't think so.

I think solid efforts should be made to improve working conditions in Qatar and general living conditions in Israel. Boycotting is never a solution. It does not solve the actual problem.

I hope you do realize you're moving the goalposts around to best fit your points. When people point out that Caf posters condem Israel as much as Qatar, you're saying it's irrelevant cause they can't boycott the Qatar WC; but then here you're talking about countries making arms deals with Saudi-Arabia, while they can't boycott their national team's WC participation either.

So let's define this properly: Norwegian pro clubs are pressuring their FA into boycotting the Qatar WC because of the labour conditions of the workers that are building the stadiums. That's it. It's not Norway as a country that's doing this, and these clubs are not condemning Qatar in general, or even labour conditions in Qatar in general. It's a very specific football context.

Consequently, even your Israel comparison doesn't fly - as long as Israel's mistreatment of the Palestinians doesn't affect what they do with their soccer stadiums. All the same, though, I do expect there would be a lot of discussion about participation - especially if the WC would have been held in Israel this summer just after the most recent conflict. Also, I would fully expect discussions to be the same if the WC was held in UAE or Saudi-Arabia and stadiums were built under similar conditions.

I don't mean to deny western (and global) hypocrisy btw. It's rampant and disgusting of course. But I think you've picked the wrong context to rail against it. And I also agree with posters who say that at least a real and serious and worthy issue is being highlighted. I mean, if the alternative to hypocrisy is to say nothing about anything ever (since no-one is going to be fully consistent), then I'll have to prefer the hypocrisy.

 

[ryan_forlan]

The west plundered and looted so many nations.Those nations are poor now and have several people who out of desperation are leaving themselves vulnerable to exploitation.

If anyone wants Qatar to be punished for the death of an Indian then the GB countries should be punished too.

 

[ryan_forlan]

Noy Defending Qatar, exposing the hypocrisy muddled in racism.
Most European countries have colonial past which they are not even ashamed of. Millions die every year across the world because of direct consequences of colonialism. In this respect the world should boycott all EU countries.

Completely agreed.
What Qatar must be doing is wrong.
But seeing people living in countries that plundered and murdered other countries, act all righteous does not sit right with me.

 

[Cheimoon]

The west plundered and looted so many nations.Those nations are poor now and have several people who out of desperation are leaving themselves vulnerable to exploitation.

If anyone wants Qatar to be punished for the death of an Indian then the GB countries should be punished too.

Qatar isn't poor though. They could easily treat these workers better and still be rich.

 

[snk123]

Passport being held is quite common when you're overseas workers under contracts. You can quit anytime in most conditions. Financial penalties might applies at worst. Most of overseas labors are under 3rd party sub contractors. The money man wont want to deal with the haslle and muscle.

Qatar is the only country in the middle east that abolished this law as far as I remember. This is the change the other countries should be pressurizing to force - not boycotting the event at the last moment.

Workers in Qatar may now change jobs without needing to obtain their employers’ permission, ending one of the most criticised elements of the country’s labour system.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...tively-ends-qatars-exploitative-kafala-system

 

[ryan_forlan]

Qatar isn't poor though. They could easily treat these workers better and still be rich.

They don't. They are jackasses.
Still these workers go there, why? Cause many western countries murdered, plundered and looted to make them desperate and vulnerable in the first place.

I am all for punishing Qatar, but punish these western countries too. Instead in this shitty world of ours these exploitative western countries seem to want to be the one sentencing Qatar. Shameless.

 

[berbatrick]

It's a shame that I had to point it out when it was so obvious. Fun fact: Did you know the UK has an arms deal with Saudi Arabia, a country with human rights records far worse than Qatar? Nope? Didn't think so.

Yes I did you moron. Why on earth do you think you are the only one with internet?

 

[OleBoiii]

The decision on whether we will boycott the tournament or not will be decided in a few hours I reckon. There is a public meeting being held right now(it's being dragged out as many people want to voice their opinion).

The Norwegian public and most Norwegian football clubs seem to be in favor of a boycott. It's interesting to see how this will turn out. 50% of Norwegians are in favor of a boycott, with only around 25% being against it.

 

[)_(]

The conclusion of this thread is to never do anything at all because you either didn't do or say something about an unrelated issue in the last month to 1000 years or because it's already happened or worse things happen elsewhere or because no one in an entire region has ever spoken about this or some other issue.

 

[Hansa]

The decision on whether we will boycott the tournament or not will be decided in a few hours I reckon. There is a public meeting being held right now(it's being dragged out as many people want to voice their opinion).

The Norwegian public and most Norwegian football clubs seem to be in favor of a boycott. It's interesting to see how this will turn out. 50% of Norwegians are in favor of a boycott, with only around 25% being against it.

This should carry absolutely no weight. Half the country has either no interest in football, or outright hates it. If you gave me a similar question about the Eurovision Song Contest or whatever, I'd probably call for a boycott, no matter what the cause.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

Nope - my main approach is it is blatant hypocrisy by the west. How countries like Norway can take the high road when they want and be lauded by gullible, hypocrite folks for taking a "principled" stance.

Well it's not Norway as a state that is doing this, is it? It's football clubs and players. Doing what most people do, having an opinion on things that affect them - in this case football players and clubs speaking out on a subject in a sport they participate in and more specifically against a tournament they might participate in.

For what it's worth- one of Norway's biggest wintersports stars (Kjetil Jansrud - Alpine skier) this week spoke out against awarding China the winter olympics. And Norway in general upset China when Liu Xiabo was awarded the Nobel Prize, causing China to boycott Norway for years.

As for your argument involving Israel - well it couldn't be more far off. Israel is universally condemned and a world cup in Israel would have been way more controversial than the one in Qatar. Israel is an ally to Norway by default (because of Nato and the US specifically) but the general view on Israel in Norway is not very positive.

The idea that you have take a moral stance in every situation for you to not be called an hypocrite is so damn stupid. People get emotionally involved when there is a subject that is close to them, it's simple. That's why you see European people changing profile pics on Facebook for terror attacks in Paris, but not for terror attacks in Nigeria. It's not because they think French people are more worth than Nigerians, but because France is closer to home.

 

[OleBoiii]

It's been decided. There will be no boycott.

 

[Grylte]

It's been decided. There will be no boycott.

I'm sure we'll find a way to not go there anyway

 

[OleBoiii]

I'm sure we'll find a way to not go there anyway

Haha, yeah but then the boycott wont mean shit

I'm very disappointed with the Norwegian FA. There was a secondary vote which said something along the lines of: "If Qatar is unsuccessful in making our suggested improvements(basically a list of 26 points), we will consider a boycott again". Around 70% voted against this

Basically: yeah, we will publicly criticize Qatar and deliver a long list of demands. But absolutely no action will be taken in the event of Qatar not delivering.

 

[Grylte]

Haha, yeah but then the boycott wont mean shit

I'm very disappointed with the Norwegian FA. There was a secondary vote which said something along the lines of: "If Qatar is unsuccessful in making our suggested improvements(basically a list of 26 points), we will consider a boycott again". Around 70% voted against this

Basically: yeah, we will publicly criticize Qatar and deliver a long list of demands. But absolutely no action will be taken in the event of Qatar not delivering.

Passive aggressive - the true Noggy style :P

 

[SirAF]

I'm sure we'll find a way to not go there anyway

That goes without saying!

 

[ryan_forlan]

The conclusion of this thread is to never do anything at all because you either didn't do or say something about an unrelated issue in the last month to 1000 years or because it's already happened or worse things happen elsewhere or because no one in an entire region has ever spoken about this or some other issue.

Not unrelated.
The people being exploited by Qatar, were made vulnerable by western countries. Not unrelated at all.

 

[)_(]

Not unrelated.
The people being exploited by Qatar, were made vulnerable by western countries. Not unrelated at all.

I suggest you reread what I wrote.

 

[Lappen]

You all find good information about how the situation is for a lot of the immigrants in Qatar at Amnesty. Read it and make up your mind after that. Also remember that its not a democracy, Qatar don't have the free speech and press and so on....

I think Norway is doing the right thing here and I wish Sweden would have done something simular... Norway just voted for not to boycott so the protest was quite small but still good. Germany have also protested openly in the games before the Euros. Respect to both countries!

I also hate the feeling that its about filling the fifa pockets. Some greedy old men laughing all the way to the bank...