Coronavirus Cricket Auction Draft (Test)

FINAL: Which team would win on a slow dustbowl minefield?


  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .
Both of their careers overlapped and Barrington scored heavier and at a much better average. He's quite clearly the better batsman.
Like I said, batting average isn't the sole indicator of quality. Barrington was good, and had the ability to stay on the pitch for long periods, but he didn't have Harvey's free flowing ability of scoring runs. Plenty as in plenty who have watched or studied them. You can go out and check various cricket forums yourself. There's no clear cut winner out of those two.

Cba to reply to the rest as it's wumming.
 
Like I said, batting average isn't the sole indicator of quality. Barrington was good, and had the ability to stay on the pitch for long periods, but he didn't have Harvey's free flowing ability of scoring runs. Plenty as in plenty who have watched or studied them. You can go out and check various cricket forums yourself. There's no clear cut winner out of those two.

Cba to reply to the rest as it's wumming.

Ironic.
 
Wonder who gets to here first...

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Hobbs is obviously the best opener in the match, Trumper would be the next best.
Mate, I just thought to check Trumper's stats and I'm shocked you didn't claim he was better than Hobbs as well. Trumper, ladies and gentlemen, averaged 33 as an opener! THIRTY-THREE. His overall batting average was 39! I get that average isn't the ultimate stat, but you seriously can't claim that he is better than Smith!
 
Mate, I just thought to check Trumper's stats and I'm shocked you didn't claim he was better than Hobbs as well. Trumper, ladies and gentlemen, averaged 33 as an opener! THIRTY-THREE. His overall batting average was 39! I get that average isn't the ultimate stat, but you seriously can't claim that he is better than Smith!

Joke isn't it. At the same time he's claiming ABDV is a better test batsman than Steve Smith, yet people are meant to take his history lessons on players nobody's ever seen at face value.
 
It's close as the heated debate over the last couple of pages has proved. For me the middle-order batting is even, but Skills/anant are ahead with the length of their line-up and their openers (though I find Jayasuriya to be a fine Test player who will be boosted on this pitch). In the bowling I give it to Moby; he has the better spin options and Imran/McGrath will be superb even in unflattering dusty conditions. Those are the facts as I see them, so it's time now to consider the battle between bat and ball on this pitch.

Also it's a bit rich of Skills/anant to ask us to discount Moby's 'stone age' players while having Hobbs as their star opener and Davidson as their first change.
 
It's close as the heated debate over the last couple of pages has proved. For me the middle-order batting is even, but Skills/anant are ahead with the length of their line-up and their openers (though I find Jayasuriya to be a fine Test player who will be boosted on this pitch). In the bowling I give it to Moby; he has the better spin options and Imran/McGrath will be superb even in unflattering dusty conditions. Those are the facts as I see them, so it's time now to consider the battle between bat and ball on this pitch.

Also it's a bit rich of Skills/anant to ask us to discount Moby's 'stone age' players while having Hobbs as their star opener and Davidson as their first change.

Not asking you discount the players. I'm asking you to discount the bullshit he's polishing them with. It is what it is.
 
@Samid in football drafts we have a rule of not allowing two managers post in the match threads. Can you enforce something here please? It isn't fair nor practical for one guy to respond to two opponents at the same time.
 
It's from the same sources which claim Hobbs as being one of the greatest openers. But of course it's gospel when it comes to your players.

I'm just quoting your own stuff back at you pal.
 
Just so that I am clear it isn't just me who is making those claims.

Victor Trumper

Cricinfo: https://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7980.html

Victor Trumper died at Sydney on June 28, 1915. Of all the great Australian batsmen Victor Trumper was by general consent the best and most brilliant. No one else among the famous group, from Charles Bannerman - thirty-nine years ago - to Bardsley and Macartney at the present time, had quite such remarkable powers. To say this involves no depreciation of Clem Hill, Noble, or the late WL Murdoch. Trumper at the zenith of his fame challenged comparison with Ranjitsinhji. He was great under all conditions of weather and ground. He could play quite an orthodox game when he wished to, but it was his ability to make big scores when orthodox methods were unavailing that lifted him above his fellows.
For this reason Trumper was, in proportion, more to be feared on treacherous wickets than on fast, true ones. No matter how bad the pitch might be from the combined effects of rain and sunshine, he was quite likely to get 50 runs, his skill in pulling good-length balls amounting to genius. Of this fact our English bowlers had convincing evidence day after day during the season of 1902. Trumper paid four visits to this country - in 1899, 1902, 1905, and 1909 - but it was in 1902 that he reached his highest point.
In that summer of wretched weather he scored 2570 runs in thirty-five matches for the Australian team, with the wonderful average, in the circumstances, of 48. He was as consistent as he was brilliant, and did not owe his average to a few exceptional scores. Of eleven innings of over a hundred, the biggest was 128. Trumper did not again touch the same level in this country. He played very well in 1905 and 1909, but he was no longer pre-eminent. He was fifth in the averages in 1905, and in 1909 he was overshadowed by Bardsley and Ransford. In the latter year, however, he was seen at his best, notably against England at The Oval, when he played DW Carr's googlies with perfect ease, and in the second match against MCC at Lord's. When he came here first, in 1899, he jumped at once into the front rank, playing a splendid innings of 135 not out against England at Lord's and scoring 300 not out against Sussex at Brighton. His innings at Lord's was in itself sufficient to prove that Australia had found a world's batsman. Nothing could have been better.
His career culminated when the South Africans visited Australia in the season of 1910-11. He then recovered his finest form, and on the beautiful wickets at Melbourne, Adelaide, and Sydney the googly bowlers had no terrors for him. In the five Test matches he scored 662 runs, with an average of 94. It was agreed on all hands that he had not played so well since his trip to England in 1902. Under all conditions Trumper was a fascinating batsman to watch. His extreme suppleness lent a peculiar grace to everything he did. When he was hitting up a big score batting seemed quite an easy matter. He took so many liberties, however, and scored from so many good balls, that in order to do himself justice he had to be in the best possible health and condition. The strokes with which he drove even the best bowlers to despair demanded a marvellous union of hand and eye. His game at its highest point of excellence could only be played by a young man.
Trumper was the most popular Australian cricketer of his time. A match played for his benefit - between New South Wales and the Rest of Australia at Sydney in February, 1913 - produced in gate-money and donations nearly £3000. Born on November 2, 1877, Trumper was in his thirty-eighth year. He had been in bad health for some little time, and the latest accounts of his condition received in this country were so discouraging as to prepare his friends for the worst. He died of Bright's disease. Trumper was never spoilt by success in the cricket field. When his name was in everyone's mouth he remained as modest and unaffected as on the day he first set foot in England.


Victor Trumper: The greatest batsman of the Golden Age – Almanack
https://www.wisden.com/almanack/victor-trumper-greatest-batsman-golden-age

Victor Trumper, the greatest batsman of the Golden Age, died on June 28, 1915, aged just 37. In the 2015 Wisden, historian Carl Bridge paid this tribute.

In the misty-eyed Australian cricketing imagination, and a century after his untimely death, Victor Trumper is still the nonpareil, the paladin of batsmen, of cricketers, of young Australian manhood. Tall, blond, willowy, lissom, with chiselled features; determined, audacious, effortlessly talented, yet modest to a fault. He was the first man to score a century before lunch in first-class cricket in Australia, the first to do so on the first day of any Test, and the unrivalled master of batting on sticky wickets. Trumper had it all.

After his maiden Test century, at Lord’s in 1899, that wily old bird, W.G. Grace – whose last Test, earlier that season, had been Trumper’s first – gave young Victor a bat inscribed: “From the past champion to the future champion”. Grace, as ever, was on the money. In time, C. B. Fry, Jack Hobbs and Wilfred Rhodes would all rate Trumper (not Bradman) as batting’s greatest exponent. His legend is summed up in George Beldam’s extraordinary photograph. As Trumper leaps out to drive, the bat handle is at its longest, the shoulder arc at its fullest, his eyes focused, the front foot poised in the air, the ball destined to leave both field and ground, as it so often did.

The Australian cricket team in England, May 1905
Forget Twenty20: the Edwardians invented big, clean hitting. There used to be a pond in Moore Park, some little distance outside the SCG, nicknamed Lake Trumper because of his fondness for despatching balls into it. In a club match in 1903 at Sydney’s Redfern Oval, one of Trumper’s sixes broke a window on the second storey of a boot factory across the road. In his honour, the shattered pane was left unrepaired for over 60 years.

We Australians are mightily proud of Bradman. But, as little boys, we all wanted to be Trumper. Growing up cricket-mad in Sydney in the 1950s and 1960s, I was lucky to be coached in wicketkeeping by Charlie Trumper, Victor’s youngest brother and a Gordon Club stalwart who had been understudy to Bert Oldfield. He drummed in the basics, but left natural talent to find its own path. I expect it was a family trait, and quintessentially Australian.

Bradman had more than twice the Test average, but the unfailingly selfless Trumper often threw his wicket away to let others have a go
Descriptions of Trumper’s batting suggest he was correct and catlike in his footwork and powerful in his wrists, picked up the line and length early, was comfortable playing good-length balls on the up, and had several strokes for every delivery. His lofted drives, pulls and cuts were perfection, but he was particularly known for his leg-side glances and glides. He could play a fast ball from off stump with a straight bat behind square-leg by closing the face at exactly the right moment.

To this day, Australian batsmen fail, fail, and fail again to emulate Trumper’s famed dog shot – let the ball pass your front pad, jam the closed bat face down, and squirt the ball through the gap left by your raised back leg. Another, slightly easier version involves raising the front leg. Try it some time.

Trumper was an outstanding outfielder with a prodigious arm. He would often amuse the crowd during breaks in play by throwing the ball to Clem Hill on the other side of the SCG, some hundred yards away. He was also a useful medium-pacer. To the outside world, Trumper is the man in Beldam’s photograph. To Sydneysiders, he is still part of the genius loci. The SCG’s Trumper Stand was opened in 2008. A Victor Trumper Society re-enacts Edwardian matches, complete with open-slatted pads, single or no gloves, cream trousers held up by sashes, skull-hugging caps and long-handled bats with taped grips. There is a Trumper Park Oval in Paddington and another Trumper Stand in Gordon. Versions of the photo are ubiquitous, from the logo of a cricketing bookseller to the cover of the old Wisden Australia.

Bradman was the unrivalled technician, Trumper the ultimate stylist
Trumper figures, too, in another part of Sydney folk history, as a founding father of Rugby League: the meeting to establish the code in 1907 was held in his sporting goods shop, and he was its first treasurer. He even played full-back for South Sydney. His generosity made him a poor businessman, but a saintly figure to young boys. He gave away bats, balls and stumps; he paid entry fees for street urchins. Legend has it he once used an ungainly log of a bat in a first-class match to please a young would-be bat manufacturer, and scored a century. The £3,000 raised at his 1913 benefit match went into a trust fund for his family.

Arthur Mailey, once a shoeless ragamuffin from the Sydney slums, described bowling to his hero in a club match. Trumper, after striking several effortless boundaries, was deceived by a dipping wrong’un and comprehensively stumped. Mailey was famously heartbroken: “I felt like a boy who had killed a dove.” Was he better than Bradman? I recall my grandfather, who saw both, saying Bradman was the unrivalled technician, Trumper the ultimate stylist: Spartan v Athenian, Roman v Greek, prose v poetry, quantity v quality. Or, as Neville Cardus put it, Bradman was the aeroplane to Trumper’s soaring eagle.

Bradman had more than twice the Test average, but the unfailingly selfless Trumper often threw his wicket away to let others have a go. Bradman played for some of his career with a different lbw law, making comparisons difficult.

Victor Trumper’s grave at Waverley Cemetery in Sydney, Australia
The First World War industrialised cricket, as much else. Nevertheless, Australian schoolteacher Renato Carini, recently examining Trumper’s batting average in difficult circumstances – a sticky wicket, say, or an impossible fourth-innings target – concluded that, while Bradman’s performance was twice that of his peers, Hobbs’s 1.5, and Ricky Ponting’s 1.2, Trumper’s was five. Special pleading, maybe, but it contains the grit of truth. Cardus, who was 14 when he first saw him bat, at Leeds in 1902, remarked that to assess his batsmanship statistically was as futile as judging Mozart by counting the notes. Well, occasionally, by totting up the right notes, the genius is revealed.

Visiting Test teams sometimes still lay flowers on Trumper’s grave at Waverley Cemetery. Jack Fingleton dubbed him “the immortal Victor Trumper”. Anyone who saw him dance carefree down the pitch to meet a ball on the half-volley will never forget it, wrote Australian biographer Percival Serle. Thanks to Beldam and Cardus, with a little imagination, in our mind’s eye all of us cricketers still can invoke that image, and for ever see the eagle soar.
 
I'll probably bore you all with more stats because it seems that our bowling is being severely underrated:
For simplicaity I'll consider Asia=dustbowl (and while I agree its not an apt comparison, there is no other way here)

BowlerAverage in AsiaS/R in Asia
McGrath23.0254.8
Imran20.2848.8
Larwood*28.3563.7
Tayfield*25.9179.8
Grimmett*24.2167.1
* signifies a player didn't play in Asia

BowlerAverage in AsiaS/R in Asia
Roberts21.5347
Waqar20.6438.2
Davidson17.8658.8
Ashwin22.5848.1
Greig31.0378.4

I mean, statistically, even the bowlers here are better
 
Where have I said that?
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/tes...o-vs-prath92-basin-reserve-wellington.414343/

"Opening the batting is the greatest opener of all time, and one of the greatest batsmen ever, Sir Jack Hobbs, THE most prolific run getter in cricket history - 61K FC runs and 199! FC centuries, an absolute machine, but more importantly, a man who literally mastered every single condition he faced, and showed flawless technique and invincible determination to clobber one bowler after another."

Do you make so many of these claims that they kind of just get lost after some point?
 
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/tes...o-vs-prath92-basin-reserve-wellington.414343/

"Opening the batting is the greatest opener of all time, and one of the greatest batsmen ever, Sir Jack Hobbs, THE most prolific run getter in cricket history - 61K FC runs and 199! FC centuries, an absolute machine, but more importantly, a man who literally mastered every single condition he faced, and showed flawless technique and invincible determination to clobber one bowler after another."

Do you make so many of these claims that they kind of just get lost after some point?
Have I not said the same in this game as well? It's you who are trying to discredit the claims about the older generation players in my team while trying to maintain them when it comes to yours.
 
Have I not said the same in this game as well? It's you who are trying to discredit the claims about the older generation players in my team while trying to maintain them when it comes to yours.

I haven't made any myself that I need to maintain. People can and should take my players at face value and come to their own conclusions. I'm just trying to stop them from being conned by you.
 
I haven't made any myself that I need to maintain. People can and should take my players at face value and come to their own conclusions. I'm just trying to stop them from being conned by you.

So do you think Hobbs is a great opener in test cricket? On what basis were you claiming that your openers are better than mine if you aren't claiming Hobbs' standing in the game?
 
@anant we'll make sure not to post as doubles in this thread. We're just really passionate about the group of mad lads we've assembled
 
Moby's middle order is lovely, but I think S/A have the edge in other areas. The pitch also favours them more imo. They have my vote.

@Skills @anant I mean the auction process was sorted out before matches, so that should have no impact in what should be a PvP discussion. Samid has already ruled and that should be it. If there's a difference in opinion on stone age player that should be tackled separately.

No reason to get all confrontational about the auction here.
 
So do you think Hobbs is a great opener in test cricket? On what basis were you claiming that your openers are better than mine if you aren't claiming Hobbs' standing in the game?

Because Hobbs played around the same era as your opener but comes out top trumps in all metrics. It isn't on the basis of some myths/stories on how he always gave his wickets away after reaching a centruy. And obviously Smith and Jayasuriya's standings in test cricket are pretty obvious.
 
The pitch also favours them more imo.
Don't really get this. The reason I went for a greentop was because I was certain they will not go for the spin pitch as that was the weakness in their team, while I had two full time spin twins in my team. So it made sure we will end up with a greentop or a dustbowl, both of which favoured mine. I mean fair enough if you rate Ashwin as highly as either of my spinners but surely Greig is not on par with having someone who was the primary weapon for their team for ages and made their name as the primary wicket taker?

Similarly having weaker openers would be more exposed on a greentop where the quicks can have a great opening spell and run through the top order. On a subcontinent-ish pitch, both teams will be relying on the spin prowess to provide the breakthroughs, which is more relevant to the middle order where I have more than enough quality.

The surface here pretty much puts me in a huge advantage on multiple fronts.
 
Because Hobbs played around the same era as your opener but comes out top trumps in all metrics. It isn't on the basis of some myths/stories on how he always gave his wickets away after reaching a centruy. And obviously Smith and Jayasuriya's standings in test cricket are pretty obvious.
They didn't play in the same era. Hobbs' partner averaged more than him while literally partnering him for most of his career yet no one in his right mind would pick him over Hobbs.

Regardless, you did claim Hobbs as being the better opener, while quoting my post as the source which was based on the same historical sources as the rest of my players. If you aren't interested in talking about anything apart from numbers best just post them and don't refer to anything else. If you don't rate older generation players, don't go about picking them and talking them up yourself.

Edit: Anyway feel like you have some sort of personal problem with what I have discussed about older players, taking my older posts from the past here as well, which is a bit weird and hilarious at the same time. Don't see any point of continuing this discussion, not worth responding to personal stuff over a draft game. Good day to you too.
 
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Was just checking, and in the 6 matches Graeme Smith played against McGrath, McGrath took his wicket 5 times. :lol:

That too for absolute poverty scores. Would be worse on this pitch.

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For whoever is still left to vote, just to summarise the game overall:

The key detail in the game is that the pitch is favourable for spinners, hence the team with the better spin option instantly gets the biggest advantage in this match. We have two quality spinners in Grimmett and Tayfield, while the opposition has Ashwin and Tony Grieg, who doesn't belong in that company. They left out Gupte who would have been a much better option on this surface. Overall, the spin department is easily in my favour.

Apart from that I have two of the fast bowling GOATs in Imran Khan and Glenn McGrath. Facing those two opening the bowling would be unplayable on any surface, and here they would be just as lethal as they are expected to be. Imran is from the subcontinent and did the bulk of his damage on similar pitches. While McGrath's deadly accuracy and wicket taking ability will be a threat as well, and he has the opposition opener Graeme Smith as his bunny.

In terms of batting, the opponents have the better openers, although they are also facing the better opening bowlers in Imran and McGrath, and as mentioned, Smith got out to McGrath 5 times in 6 matches for rubbish scores, so that should be factored in. Nothing much between the two number 3s, and from 4-7 I have the better middle order with a GOAT level batsman in Viv Richards, with Greg Chappell, AB De Villiers and Imran Khan. They should be able to negotiate Ashwin and Grieg.

Top order aside, there are clear advantages for my team here given the conditions.
 
Just to summarise, Moby has filled his team with pre-historic players. His opener played in the in the first decade of the last century, so the guy didn't even play against any bowler you can pick in this draft - so the whole thing about McGrath taking Smith's wicket 5 times becomes moot as feck for that reason. Jayasuriya has been dismissed 7 times by Waqar.

He's also then spent the game talking absolute shit as only Moby can. He's claiming there's nothing between Harvey & Barrington - two guys who's careers overlapped for 7 years but Barrington happens to averages 10 runs more.

If you vote for him, you're buying his judgement on the older players. This is the guy who believes that ABDV is a better test batsman than Steve Smith - so clearly there's something massively wrong with his calibration. It's like getting taught about contraception by a catholic priest. So make your own judgement, as even a tub of salt is not going to be enough to cut through Moby's bs.

Me and anant have assembled a balanced but stacked team with. We also have a proper wicketkeeper batsman who on a genuine dustbowl can make a huge difference. But ultimately, it's your call.
 
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The debate on the batting order is weird. Hobbs and Smith are obviously a much better Test opening pairing than Trumper and Jayasuriya. There isn't much between the middle orders though.

Viv, Chappell, and Harvey vs Smith, Pollock, and Barrington is quite close. Both teams have got their batting order messed up, but it is what it is.

ABdV and Imran is a much better pairing for the lower middle order than Watling and Greig though. However, suggestions of ABdV being better than Smith in Tests is just rubbish.

All in all, not much in it. Hobbs probably gives his team an edge.
 
There isn't much between the middle orders though.
Pretty much. I can argue that having the best batsman in the match in Viv and as you said AB and Imran coming in at 6 and 7 gives mine the edge but I can understand why it's debatable.

There's no debate when it comes to the bowling unit though, both in spin as well as pace departments, with this being a bowler friendly pitch.
 
Bowling wins matches and I think skills miscalculated by dropping Gupte in spin assist pitch also I don’t rate Tony as spinner which gives advance to Moby with two spinners vs Skills one, considering spinners would be widely used and the Moby MO would be too good to deal with one spinner.
 
For man-like @Mani

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Our bowlers have freakishly good records in Asia (i.e. the type of pitches this match will be played on). Don't get bamboozled by the big-name factor, when our guys have delivered big time on the pitch we're playing on.
 
For man-like @Mani

wLOnlDT.png


Our bowlers have freakishly good records in Asia (i.e. the type of pitches this match will be played on). Don't get bamboozled by the big-name factor, when our guys have delivered big time on the pitch we're playing on.

Beginning of the match I specifically asked whether this matches are played in the pitches of Sub continent where it assists spinners, the answer was pitches everywhere which assist the spin which also breaks up by third or fourth day so there is no point with stats from Asia alone.
 
Beginning of the match I specifically asked whether this matches are played in the pitches of Sub continent where it assists spinners, the answer was pitches everywhere which assist the spin which also breaks up by third or fourth day so there is no point with stats from Asia alone.

But how many places do we know of outside of Asia, that produce pitches that behave like that though?
 
Did not get enough time yesterday to participate in this. I think it is very close. but my hunch was to go with Skills since his batting line up is marginally better.
 
Beginning of the match I specifically asked whether this matches are played in the pitches of Sub continent where it assists spinners, the answer was pitches everywhere which assist the spin which also breaks up by third or fourth day so there is no point with stats from Asia alone.
Yep, the rules don't specify any particular region, and the pitches are not classified geographically but by assistance for one of the three - batsman, quicks and spinners. Actually previously we used to have all three and all matches were decided based on a 3 match series, but it changed in this one and we have only one.
 
Did not get enough time yesterday to participate in this. I think it is very close. but my hunch was to go with Skills since his batting line up is marginally better.
Can agree to that, just that when the pitch is a spin friendly one, the team with better spin options and in this case one actual extra full time spinner and a pretty good one at that should get the advantage first and foremost. And that's a bowling unit opened by Imran and McGrath...
 
Can agree to that, just that when the pitch is a spin friendly one, the team with better spin options and in this case one actual extra full time spinner and a pretty good one at that should get the advantage first and foremost. And that's a bowling unit opened by Imran and McGrath...
Strange then that you posted this earlier in the competition and voted for Saqlain "Totally agree and that was a reason for my vote here. While Murali is obviously a bigger name and a better player, Saqlain was pretty handful himself and would have a good game here. " :lol:
 
Strange then that you posted this earlier in the competition and voted for Saqlain "Totally agree and that was a reason for my vote here. While Murali is obviously a bigger name and a better player, Saqlain was pretty handful himself and would have a good game here. " :lol:
That's why I mentioned its not just saying one spinner is better than the other, but also having an extra spinner as compared to the opposition.