Yeah, I think it is much of muchness to choose between two bowling attacks here. Marshall is the best out of the lot, followed by Mcgrath and then it close between Akram and Imran. Miller over any of the two by Skills. The result of the match in that case should default to respective batting line ups.
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Yeah, I think it is much of muchness to choose between two bowling attacks here. Marshall is the best out of the lot, followed by Mcgrath and then it close between Akram and Imran. Miller over any of the two by Skills. The result of the match in that case should default to respective batting line ups.
Gibbs was operating at a time, when WI was clearly moving to all pace attack. His autobiography mentions Guyana pitches being either batsman friendly whereas rest of WI pitches were pace friendly, so he had to vary his bowling continuously which became his speciality.
I think he'll do as good in green top as his tactical weapon in exploiting variations is flight and pace, esp proven in pace friendly WI pitches.
When you have 4 genuine fast bowlers in your team with seam friendly pitch, impact of spinners will always limited, how many overs do you think spinner would get here?
Gibbs is good spinner and I don't deny that but when I've 4 seam bowler in seam friendly pitch I would prefer my seam bowlers to bowl more as they got more chance to run over the batting side than a spinner.
If you are thinking a wrist spinner, who depends on turn, then probably not.
Gibbs is a tidy little bowler consistent in length, able to vary his pace and exploit the track. His Econ rate is still spectacular even in non-spin friendly pitches. As to keeping the pressure on and restrict scoring, I think. Plus he's not afraid to flight the ball and beat batsman in the air.
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Plus that spinners will suffer on a pace track is a myth.
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/22821873/the-best-venues-fast-bowlers-spinners
If you look at above...of top 10 pace vs spin tracks (since 2002), we see 5 of 10 pitches overlaps. That an incredible 50% common ground. And you know what....a top pitch supporting both is right there in Jamaica!
If you look at list of batsmen whose wicket Gibbs has taken most, both Barrington and Greig make an appearance.
- Gibbs has taken Barrington wicket 6 off 22 innings.
- Gibbs has taken Grieg wicket 4 off 15 innings.
Potraying him as some kind of non value added placeholder is certainly not true!
- Gibbs has taken Barrington wicket 6 off 22 innings.
- Gibbs has taken Grieg wicket 4 off 15 innings.
Potraying him as some kind of non value added placeholder is certainly not true!
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Btw...are you also an AM to Skills/anant?
Only spinner who I know had not been affected by any kind of pitch surface is Warne and he's wrist spinner.
I can see that you completely ignored my point, will you be happy giving bowling to seam bowlers in seam friendly pitch or would you give ball to the spinner to contain runs especially with surface favour seam?
I also said that I'm not denying the fact Gibbs is top class bowler but with four seam bowlers Gibbs would hardly get 12 -20max over per innings that too if my fast bowlers doesn't give much impact.
Also we need to understand that WI doesn't prepare pitch that are similar to those good old days where it assisted fast bowlers.
NO why ?
Gibbs is the best spinner that West Indies has ever produced. However, that’s not saying much since they don’t have great spinners anyway. I buy the argument that he’s better than Grieg though.
I posted his record against Barrington and Grieg which is not bad at all. Maybe when they are batting, he'll get a run out. A good change in spell will crack open some wickets...esp with a master of flight like Gibbs.
You keep saying my bowlers, so thought you were arguing in lieu of them
I posted his record against Barrington and Grieg which is not bad at all. Maybe when they are batting, he'll get a run out. A good change in spell will crack open some wickets...esp with a master of flight like Gibbs.
You keep saying my bowlers, so thought you were arguing in lieu of them
If you're looking it that way, then every player from both our sides will have multiple such cases.
A quick search and Dravid got dismissed by Mcgrath 5 times in 12 innings with 3 ducks!
Greg Chappell - out 5 times in 10 innings to Imran, 5 times in 10 innings vs Roberts with 1 duck!
All these players are tier 1-3 level players. Its obvious they would have been dismissed by a great bowler!
EAP/TMH's batting is too thin. Should have dropped the spinner on this pitch and played an extra batsman.
Result:
Skills/Anant 7-4 EAP/TMH
Skills/Anant 7-4 EAP/TMH
SF2: Norris vs Crappy
Please vote for one of the teams that you believe would win on a flat pancake road.
Discussions encouraged. Write ups to follow.
Team @Norris
Team @crappycraperson
Discussions encouraged. Write ups to follow.
Team @Norris
- Gary Kirsten
- Gordon Greenidge
- Wally Hammond
- Sachin Tendulkar
- Frank Worrel (c)
- Quinton de Kock (wk)
- Richard Hadlee
- Mitchell Johnson
- Shane Warne
- Dennis Lillee
- Saqlain Mushtaq
Team @crappycraperson
- Sunil Gavaskar
- Sir Leonard Hutton
- Stan McCabe
- Sir Gary Sobers (c)
- Zaheer Abbas
- Doug Walters
- Adam Gilchrist (wk)
- Ray Lindwall
- Michael Holding
- Sir Curtly Ambrose
- Muttiah Muralitharan
Team @Norris
The Flat Pancake [Maple Syrup Edition]
Obviously this is going to be a tough game and it should be considering it's a semi-final. However, I still feel there are chinks in Crappy's armour. Hence, I've roped in an additional bowler. Lillee also has come in for Thomson and Saqlain makes his first appearance since the Round of 16. This change in personnel ensures you have extremely varied bowling options. Right arm, left arm, off-spin, leg-spin, slow medium seam, really means Crappy's batting has to watch every single ball with precision to ensure they don't lose their wicket.
Of course, I could have made it a GOAT lineup with introducing Steyn in the team and forfeiting two votes, but I don't want to do that. I still believe my bowlers can do the job. Between them, they have more than 2000 Test Wickets which is absolutely insane.
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Team @crappycraperson
Batting
All time great openers, rock solid middler order. Even the lower order is exceptionally strong with respectable averages for those positions.
- Gavaskar is IMO definitely the best test opener of all time. Some will root out some other names with better averages etc but when you bring in the context of him facing the best pace attack of all time (Windies one) in his prime as an opener and having this record against them - 13 hundreds, 7 fifties at an average of 65.45, in Windies itself he averages 70 with 7 hundreds and 4 fifties. GOAT Opener NQAT. Leonard Hutton is his partner up top and only other contender for the best opener of all time. His number speaks all you need to know.
- Windies great Sir Gary Sobers anchors the middle order with support from McCabe and Abbas. Sobers is an all time great who instantly makes any side he graces jump up a level, he is simply peerless in this draft. Abbas dubbed as "Asian bradman" remains one of the finest Pakistani batsmen of all time. McCabe is someone who made Bradman envious with his batting ability. McCabe was a rare name to come out of the bodyline series with 385 runs @ 43, McCabe's greatest innings came when the team needed him the most, often on surfaces where no one else was able to get going and made his presence invaluable as a batsman against the toughest attacks. He did all that with incredible style and grace, making him one of the greatest Australian batsmen of all time.
- Doug Walters' record speaks for itself and as an attacking batsmen he suits the position of number 6 to a tee. As wiki puts it - "He famously hit a century in a session at the WACA against England in 1974, where he hit Bob Willis for six from the last ball of the day to bring up his ton. His 250 against New Zealand in 1977 is the highest by any batsman in the number six position." Following him is Gilchrist, the greatest keeper of all time, a true match winner in any time under any conditions. Then there is a very strong lower order led by Lindwall and Holding. Lindwall qualifies as a bowling all rounder given his record while Holding proved himself as a useful batsman on many occasions too.
Bowling
Bowling is spearheaded by best spinner of all time in Murali and two of the best Windies pace of all time in Ambrose and Holding. Lindwall was regarded as the best pace bowler of his era and proved himself against likes of Hutton and Hammond. Of course as part of invincibles he made his mark too leading to Wisden naming him as one of the cricketers of the year in 1949 and number 1 ICC bowler rankings for 1948 and 1949. Holding nicknamed "whispering death" was only bettered by his partner in crime Marshall in her era. Ambrose was one of the best pace bowlers of his time and the fear he inspired in batsman is replicated by few very bowlers in history.
Pitch factor - Flat wicket
Norris has a solid side but I believe balance in my team is better along with sheer overflow of match winners in Sobers, Gavaskar, Hutton, Gilchrist, Murali, Holding and Ambrose. That's 7 match winners in a lineup. Coming to pitch conditions, having Sobers as a fifth bowler is going to be key to tipping it in my favour. Not to mention Walter is there as 6th option too. I think my pacers shade his. Lillie's record is terrible in Asia, suggesting he is likely to be sub par on wickets with no support for seamers. If he plays Johnson, then that is a passenger in his lineup. On the flip side both Ambrose and Holding record in Asia is pretty much same as their overall record. Given both batting orders are mostly stacked, I expect many draws but having higher quality batsmen and better bowling options give me an edge to sneak out more wins on average.
| Team Norris | Matches | High Score | Batting Average | 100s | 50s | Wickets | Bowling Average | Economy | Fifer | 10er |
| 1. Gary Kirsten | 101 | 275 | 45.27 | 21 | 34 | NA | NA | NA | NA | NA |
| 2. Gordon Greenidge | 108 | 226 | 44.72 | 19 | 34 | NA | NA | NA | NA | NA |
| 3. Wally Hammond | 85 | 336 | 58.45 | 22 | 24 | 83 | 37.8 | 2.36 | 2 | 0 |
| 4. Sachin Tendulkar | 200 | 248 | 53.78 | 51 | 68 | 46 | 54.17 | 3.52 | 0 | 0 |
| 5. Frank Worrel (C) | 51 | 261 | 49.48 | 9 | 22 | 69 | 38.72 | 2.24 | 2 | 0 |
| 6. Quinton de Kock † | 47 | 129 | 39.12 | 5 | 21 | NA | NA | NA | NA | NA |
| 7. Richard Hadlee | 86 | 151 | 27.16 | 2 | 15 | 431 | 22.29 | 2.63 | 36 | 9 |
| 8. Mitchell Johnson | 73 | 123 | 22.2 | 1 | 11 | 313 | 28.4 | 3.33 | 12 | 3 |
| 9. Shane Warne | 145 | 99 | 17.32 | 0 | 12 | 708 | 25.41 | 2.65 | 37 | 10 |
| 10. Dennis Lillee | 70 | 73* | 13.71 | 0 | 1 | 355 | 23.92 | 2.75 | 23 | 7 |
| 11. Saqlain Mushtaq | 49 | 101* | 14.81 | 1 | 2 | 208 | 29.83 | 2.64 | 13 | 3 |
The Flat Pancake [Maple Syrup Edition]
Obviously this is going to be a tough game and it should be considering it's a semi-final. However, I still feel there are chinks in Crappy's armour. Hence, I've roped in an additional bowler. Lillee also has come in for Thomson and Saqlain makes his first appearance since the Round of 16. This change in personnel ensures you have extremely varied bowling options. Right arm, left arm, off-spin, leg-spin, slow medium seam, really means Crappy's batting has to watch every single ball with precision to ensure they don't lose their wicket.
Of course, I could have made it a GOAT lineup with introducing Steyn in the team and forfeiting two votes, but I don't want to do that. I still believe my bowlers can do the job. Between them, they have more than 2000 Test Wickets which is absolutely insane.
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Team @crappycraperson
Batting
All time great openers, rock solid middler order. Even the lower order is exceptionally strong with respectable averages for those positions.
- Gavaskar is IMO definitely the best test opener of all time. Some will root out some other names with better averages etc but when you bring in the context of him facing the best pace attack of all time (Windies one) in his prime as an opener and having this record against them - 13 hundreds, 7 fifties at an average of 65.45, in Windies itself he averages 70 with 7 hundreds and 4 fifties. GOAT Opener NQAT. Leonard Hutton is his partner up top and only other contender for the best opener of all time. His number speaks all you need to know.
- Windies great Sir Gary Sobers anchors the middle order with support from McCabe and Abbas. Sobers is an all time great who instantly makes any side he graces jump up a level, he is simply peerless in this draft. Abbas dubbed as "Asian bradman" remains one of the finest Pakistani batsmen of all time. McCabe is someone who made Bradman envious with his batting ability. McCabe was a rare name to come out of the bodyline series with 385 runs @ 43, McCabe's greatest innings came when the team needed him the most, often on surfaces where no one else was able to get going and made his presence invaluable as a batsman against the toughest attacks. He did all that with incredible style and grace, making him one of the greatest Australian batsmen of all time.
- Doug Walters' record speaks for itself and as an attacking batsmen he suits the position of number 6 to a tee. As wiki puts it - "He famously hit a century in a session at the WACA against England in 1974, where he hit Bob Willis for six from the last ball of the day to bring up his ton. His 250 against New Zealand in 1977 is the highest by any batsman in the number six position." Following him is Gilchrist, the greatest keeper of all time, a true match winner in any time under any conditions. Then there is a very strong lower order led by Lindwall and Holding. Lindwall qualifies as a bowling all rounder given his record while Holding proved himself as a useful batsman on many occasions too.
Bowling
Bowling is spearheaded by best spinner of all time in Murali and two of the best Windies pace of all time in Ambrose and Holding. Lindwall was regarded as the best pace bowler of his era and proved himself against likes of Hutton and Hammond. Of course as part of invincibles he made his mark too leading to Wisden naming him as one of the cricketers of the year in 1949 and number 1 ICC bowler rankings for 1948 and 1949. Holding nicknamed "whispering death" was only bettered by his partner in crime Marshall in her era. Ambrose was one of the best pace bowlers of his time and the fear he inspired in batsman is replicated by few very bowlers in history.
Pitch factor - Flat wicket
Norris has a solid side but I believe balance in my team is better along with sheer overflow of match winners in Sobers, Gavaskar, Hutton, Gilchrist, Murali, Holding and Ambrose. That's 7 match winners in a lineup. Coming to pitch conditions, having Sobers as a fifth bowler is going to be key to tipping it in my favour. Not to mention Walter is there as 6th option too. I think my pacers shade his. Lillie's record is terrible in Asia, suggesting he is likely to be sub par on wickets with no support for seamers. If he plays Johnson, then that is a passenger in his lineup. On the flip side both Ambrose and Holding record in Asia is pretty much same as their overall record. Given both batting orders are mostly stacked, I expect many draws but having higher quality batsmen and better bowling options give me an edge to sneak out more wins on average.
Why do I feel like both these teams have got weaker than what they fielded in the last round?
I wouldn't say my team has gotten weaker. Lillee is a huge upgrade on Thomson. And I wanted to put more specialist bowlers in the team considering I am happy with the batting I have. Wally Hammond, Greenidge, Worrell and Sachine are game winners on their own, so I am not concerned on batting. Introducing Saqlain means I have 5 full time bowlers who are only focussed on picking wickets. Saqlain has an excellent record in countries primarily favouring batsmen. Him, Warne, Hadlee and Lillee have so much variation between them. Johnson too at his peak was excellent too, so I don't agree that he would be a passenger. He still offers something nobody else in the match offers.
So yes, there is a change in tactics taking into factor, the pitch and Crappy's batting, but that doesn't mean they are weaker.
Went back to the QFs and I see you've dropped Miandad for Saqlain. That seems pointless to me considering you already have Warne who will turn it on any pitch, while Saqlain is not so great in Tests anyway.
This is your team from the QFs:
Team @Norris
- Gary Kirsten
- Gordon Greenidge
- Wally Hammond
- Sachin Tendulkar
- Javed Miandad
- Frank Worrel (C)
- Quinton de Kock (wk)
- Richard Hadlee
- Mitchell Johnson
- Shane Warne
- Jeff Thomson
It's tough to choose between the two teams. For a flat pitch, I believe variation in bowling and ability to score runs at a faster rate are more important. Norris has that variation in bowling, but I'm unsure whether his side can score runs quickly and give the bowlers time to take those 20 wickets especially as Crappy has that additional batsman.
How is putting in Sobers instead of Weekes weakening the team?
For Norris, I think it is a howler to play Johnson instead of Miandad. Yes, it is batting friendly wicket but I think Norris has negated his middle order advantage here. His openers are no where the same class as mine and it is very likely his middle order will be exposed early after Ambrose and Holding make inroads. His 3-5 is still good to weather the same but on odd occasions they will slip up too making it more likely for me to close on victory.
I am confident in my bowling better than his. It is a good decision by Norris to field Saqlain but I thought he would drop Johnson for it but instead he has sacrificed a piece of batting for it. On the other hand, given Sobers' addition I did not have sacrifice any batting quality and added a fifth bowling option in Sobers who can bowl Spin or seam as required by the situation or pitch conditions.
It's crappy for me.
No, if you go look at Saqlain's numbers in flat pitches, he has a pretty good record. He is not one who is only about spinning.His ability to flight the ball can be deceiving. He was really dangerous in the 90s bowling to some of the players who are this match as well. Playing Miandad would have ensured more runs for sure, but like I said, I have confidence in the batsmen. Some of them have faced crappy's bowlers too. Sachin would love playing against Ambrose.
Mostly because you needed a top number 3 and not Sobers.
You had Weekes at 4 who was probably your best middle order batsman and you replaced him with a better batsman, yes, but you didn't upgrade other more weaker areas in your side.
Now, if you had upgraded Walters or even Abbas with Sobers, I'd have understood, but you needed something different. The main thing in your favour is that your opponent has pretty much shot himself in the foot.
Do I lose a huge piece of batting by dropping Miandad? Yes.Will it affect the scores my team puts up, yes, for sure. But giving me a proper fifth bowler and one who has good enough record on batting paradises ensures that I am likely to take 20 wickets as well.
I am not going to deny that dropping Miandad was a gamble, but simply replacing Johnson with Saqlain would not be enough ensure all 20 wickets are taken.
And you have the far better openers no doubt, but Greenidge is no slouch at all. He has played with some of the greats in your team. Kirsten too has faced the likes of McGrath, Warne in his career, so I wouldn't immediately diminish his contribution to the game.
But that is the point
- despite adding Saqlain, I will take Sobers over Johnson as a fifth bowler.
- Your middle order is weakened and it increases possibility of my bowling attack taking 20 wickets.
I will also back Murali to take care of Sachin problem half the time.
I understand those question but they are valid during auction/drafting process.(Just to touch on it, I did consider upgrading Walters, no good replacement was there for no.3 role but went with taking Sobers since he brings in X factor and I wanted a very good 5th bowling option too)
I think in match up it is best to concentrate two respective sides and who wins over them.
I think you win the match, if that's what you're asking, but forgive me for being disappointed in the quality of teams put up. I felt you both had the best teams going into this round and I anticipated a top contest. I love well-structured teams with players in their best positions and everything being a perfect fit and both you and Norris had done exceptionally well with your teams in the QFs so I feel slightly let down by the lineups put up for a Semi-final in what is quite a good draft.
Don't get me wrong, there is a lot to like about your team. Your openers, for instance, are top quality and I think getting a great opening pairing is an underrated aspect of Test drafts in general. Also, I think your bowling attack is simply incredible although I'd have loved to see a bowler like Hadlee or McGrath in there to give it that consistency. Anyway, I'm a big believer in Ambrose and I think he's deadly on his day.
I really wanted to post this video during my match when I had him. He's an absolute beast.
Also this particular spell from hell. Unplayable stuff:
More than anything its Holding that edges this for Crappy. Even on a flat wicket, Holding was deadly.
Agree on Ambrose.. intimidation factor was real with him.
Re: quality of sides, I think I have 7 final ready players - Gavaskar, Hutton, Sobers, Gilchrist, Murali, Holding and Ambrose. Add to that Abbas and Lindwall who are only a tier below and you have a very good team in your hands.
Agree with that, with the possible exception of Abbas. I feel he's a tier below that in Tests, while he's absolutely in the top tier in ODs.
Crappy's better batsmen take the day
No way. A full time specialist bowler is always better than a part-time one. Sobers as fantastic as he was had a short peak being deadly with the ball. Here is an excerpt from Cricinfo detailing that.
I no doubt agree he is great and possibly even the greatest all-rounder of all time, but he was more devastating with the bat than the ball.
Lillee once called Johnson "once-in-a-lifetime fast bowler". Ashes 2013/2014 was his absolute peak and he was devastating. He demolished players the same way Lillee (who's also in the team by the way) did. It's sometimes easy to forget how good a player he was at his prime considering he had to overcome injuries a few times too many. Considering we are talking about players at their peak, I have no doubt Johnson would not just "merely be a passenger"
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...o-at-his-peak-was-capable-of-remarkable-feats
Good game @Norris . The Steyn blunder sank you 
@Samid rules for final reinforcement round