Cop in America doing a bad job, again

60 people over a weekend.
What the feck is wrong with Chicago?
 
@TheReligion knives are treated as deadly weapons so deadly force is an option. Ideally, the primary officer has his gun drawn giving verbal commands. A partner officer(s) should have taser or beanbag to try and incapacitate the suspect without having to shoot. In that particular video I don't think a taser would be any more effective. He used the chair as a shield. For a taser you need to be closer in distance and that can get dangerous with the way suspect was acting
 
choiboyx012 said:
@TheReligion knives are treated as deadly weapons so deadly force is an option. Ideally, the primary officer has his gun drawn giving verbal commands. A partner officer(s) should have taser or beanbag to try and incapacitate the suspect without having to shoot. In that particular video I don't think a taser would be any more effective. He used the chair as a shield.
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So the best solution was to kill the hostage and the killer in a hail of bullets?
 
choiboyx012 said:
@TheReligion knives are treated as deadly weapons so deadly force is an option. Ideally, the primary officer has his gun drawn giving verbal commands. A partner officer(s) should have taser or beanbag to try and incapacitate the suspect without having to shoot. In that particular video I don't think a taser would be any more effective. He used the chair as a shield.
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I thought that initially however I watched again and think the opportunity arose to use taser when he initially walked at officers.

The beanbag shots would have just made him more angry and worked up IMO.
 
TheReligion said:
I don't think they communicated particularly well with each other at that point. Prior to it they were quite good but it all went a bit hectic at the end.
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True, tactically they did everything by the book. But getting to the hostage at the end happened so quick. Not sure any experienced officers in their shoes would have known that the primary officer had a good angle for a shot, or communicated that to each other in the 2 seconds they had available. I think the other 2 officers just instinctively reacted to her throat getting cut and shot to stop him.
 
TheReligion said:
Keeping your head is the key part here. People aren't just shooting targets like civilian gun owners, this is real life/death situations. Easy to be critical behind a computer screen.
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If they don't have the ability or mental capacity to work that one out, even under pressure, they shouldn't be popping shots off in the street. As far as these situations go, this was one of the least pressured I've seen. If it wasn't so horrendous it'd be like something out of a satirical dark comedy movie (which would be a fantastic idea for a movie).
 
TheReligion said:
That's very harsh. That situation was extremely difficult to deal with. If they didn't act the woman was already dead as she was having her throat cut.



Keeping your head is the key part here. People aren't just shooting targets like civilian gun owners, this is real life/death situations. Easy to be critical behind a computer screen.



It does seem odd they unloaded so many rounds. The situation escalated very quickly though.

@Skizzo @choiboyx012

We have these situations in the UK fairly often (not always hostage but people brandishing knives). What is the usual protocol in dealing with them in the US?

We would use taser as it incapacitates. A much better choice here for me rather than beanbag although getting a clean spread on the body would have been difficult as he had a chair.

Edit: I've watched it back and definitely think taser would have resolved this without loss of life.
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A taser wouldn’t work on this situation and only training the officers and find out which of them should not carry a gun
 
choiboyx012 said:

This was released by lapd recently. fast forward to the end for raw bodycam footage. Really feckin sad. Hostage was not mobile so couldn't run away. Main criticism being only 1 of the officers had a clear shot, but the other 2 shot anyway because they observed him sawing at her neck and tried to stop the threat.
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Holy shit!! what a bunch of useless cnuts.
 
VeevaVee said:
If they don't have the ability or mental capacity to work that one out, even under pressure, they shouldn't be popping shots off in the street. As far as these situations go, this was one of the least pressured I've seen. If it wasn't so horrendous it'd be like something out of a satirical dark comedy movie (which would be a fantastic idea for a movie).
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How many of these situations have you been in sorry?
 
VeevaVee said:
Poor but predictable response. I know I wouldn't point my gun and shoot at the woman in this situation. And I'm not even supposed to be trained.
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Serious question. How many? Or what's the most pressured situation, life or death, you have been in. I'm curious.
 
TheReligion said:
No it's not. What's terrible is for someone to say that's one of the least pressured situations they've ever seen.

Ridiculous comments get ridiculous retorts.
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He said "as far as these situations go", i.e the situations we see presented in this thread and news reports.

His overriding point was that if a trained officer can't handle situations like that then they shouldn't be in that job.

To respond with basically "how would you handle it" is utterly ridiculous unless he's suggesting he should be working as an officer.

It's the equivalent of responding to reasonable critique in the football forum with "you couldn't do better".
 
TheReligion said:
Serious question. How many? Or what's the most pressured situation, life or death, you have been in. I'm curious.
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It's not relevant. I know I'd not start filling both of them with bullets though. It's a ridiculous thing to do.
I'll give them that it seems as though training tells them to all shoot when one does like some kind of Reno 911 sketch, but I'd like to think a certain amount of common sense should come into policing.

TheReligion said:
No it's not. What's terrible is for someone to say that's one of the least pressured situations they've ever seen.

Ridiculous comments get ridiculous retorts.
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One of the less tense situations of that sort I've seen. As soon as it ramps up there's one guy with a clear shot. Anyone trained with firearms should know he'll be taking that shot and not just start shooting for the sake of it.

The best thing is how pro gun people harp on about arming more people and just training them, yet we see the police doing daft shit all the time.
 
Raoul said:
From what I've read optimal taser range is about 10-15 feet and it never looked like the cops were anywhere near that close to him.
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They weren't in control at any point. Too far back. The first cop who addressed him sounded amped up and not calm at all.
 
VeevaVee said:
Poor but predictable response. I know I wouldn't point my gun and shoot at the woman in this situation. And I'm not even supposed to be trained.
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That's the point. You don't know what you'd do.

Rado_N said:
He said "as far as these situations go", i.e the situations we see presented in this thread and news reports.

His overriding point was that if a trained officer can't handle situations like that then they shouldn't be in that job.

To respond with basically "how would you handle it" is utterly ridiculous unless he's suggesting he should be working as an officer.

It's the equivalent of responding to reasonable critique in the football forum with "you couldn't do better".
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Nah. I'm making the point you just don't know how you'll react in high pressure situations (which it was, it was ridiculous to suggest it wasn't).

I sometimes think the public expect police officers to be like robots when it comes to things like this. Training only gets you so far sadly.

VeevaVee said:
It's not relevant. I know I'd not start filling both of them with bullets though. It's a ridiculous thing to do.
I'll give them that it seems as though training tells them to all shoot when one does like some kind of Reno 911 sketch, but I'd like to think a certain amount of common sense should come into policing.



One of the less tense situations of that sort I've seen. As soon as it ramps up there's one guy with a clear shot. Anyone trained with firearms should know he'll be taking that shot and not just start shooting for the sake of it.

The best thing is how pro gun people harp on about arming more people and just training them, yet we see the police doing daft shit all the time.
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It is relevant if you're making such bold statements. Presumably by you lack of response you haven't been in any similar situations which is understandable.

Just try making your point in a less cnutish way in future as if you read what I've posted I actually suggest things could have been done better.
 
Raoul said:
From what I've read optimal taser range is about 10-15 feet and it never looked like the cops were anywhere near that close to him.
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I think they were when he moved towards them. I think the beanbag rounds were a bad idea. Would love to know the rationale for not having taser to hand.
 
Grinner said:
They weren't in control at any point. Too far back. The first cop who addressed him sounded amped up and not calm at all.
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Agree with this to an extent. They should have closed him down quicker. Not sure why they are taking cover when he's got a chair in one hand and a knife in the other.
 
TheReligion said:
I think they were when he moved towards them. I think the beanbag rounds were a bad idea. Would love to know the rationale for not having taser to hand.
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The bean bags were pretty pointless imo. Unless they are going to do the job and incapacitate him they shouldn't be used at all since they would just piss him off and cause him to look for a human shield.
 
TheReligion said:
Why wouldn't taser work?
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If he's using the chair as a shield that covers his torso, there's not much to aim at with a taser, which isn't all that accurate and effective anyway. And you need to be closer in distance compared to beanbag, so if it failed the suspect would be able to lunge at the officer and stab him before he could draw out.
 
Raoul said:
The bean bags were pretty pointless imo. Unless they are going to do the job and incapacitate him they shouldn't be used at all since they would just piss him off and cause him to look for a human shield.
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Exactly. That's how I saw it. If they had opted for taser it would highly likely have incapacitated him.
 
Raoul said:
The bean bags were pretty pointless imo. Unless they are going to do the job and incapacitate him they shouldn't be used at all since they would just piss him off and cause him to look for a human shield.
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I haven't confined but did any of the beanbags hit?
 
choiboyx012 said:
If he's using the chair as a shield that covers his torso, there's not much to aim at with a taser, which isn't all that accurate and effective anyway. And you need to be closer in distance compared to beanbag, so if it failed the suspect would be able to lunge at the officer and stab him before he could draw out.
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I disagree. Taser is highly effective in my opinion and essential use in situations such as this.

The suspect was not running at anyone. He only took the hostage when beanbags were unloaded at him. Really poor tactical option in that situation for me.

I accept he had the chair but you watch the video im confident there's a few opportunities to use taser when he moves forward at the cops before withdrawing to the female.
 
choiboyx012 said:
I haven't confined but did any of the beanbags hit?
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They may have partially hit him or the chair he was holding, but the very fact that he was protecting himself with a chair was good enough reason to avoid going the bean bag route altogether. They should've simply told him to drop the knife and if he didn't then used deadly force. Allowing him to continue walking around to even reach the woman was a massive mistake.
 
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