Cold War against China?

I'm not comparing the democracies or lack of but why is that different to the numerous trading disputes the likes of America have had with "smaller" countries just to get their own way and leverage their current power in the world?

If Australia criticised a US president or policy, they wouldn't suddenly find that their meat exports get held up at American ports due to "entirely unrelated paperwork issues".

In America there is a limit and accountability for the exercise of power. China has none.
 
Regarding this Belt Road Initiative, has it been working well?

I watched a program on Chinese involvement in Kenya and I was unimpressed.
  • The Kenyans argued it's colonialism all over again.
  • The Chinese showed no respect for local Kenyan culture and traditions.
  • There have even been fights between Chinese and Kenyans.

If this is how the Chinese conduct their Belt Road Initiative in all countries then I suspect it'll become a failure.
 
Not in what it matters in human rights but yes in other stupid PR stunt like the "China virus" that the right wing patriot media spun till a puking level

Which was actually something that nearly all western media massively critized Trump for. Anyway, I'm not an American and I have grown up as a citizen in a country with a great human rights record, so I will feel free to critize to whichever goverment I want to. Since my fathers family suffered immensely under Mao's cultural recolution, I have some grievance brownie points against the CCP.
 
China's expansion into the south china sea, literally building land for military bases and airfields, thousands of miles away to create a ring fence over what they claim is their territory in the area. Put them within striking distance of Australia and their increased naval activity and incursions into other countries waters in the region, including practice bombing runs. Large increase annually into cyber attacks against numerous countries, the biggest espionage operations on multiple fronts ever seen in the last decade. The attempt to force the belt and road initiative on their terms onto foreign countries which includes the rights to create security bases at what they consider key points meaning military bases which amounts to nothing more than a debt trap that includes the takeover of ports for civilian and military purposes, creation of towns to house the Chinese workers who must come in as the contracts for the work has to be awarded to Chinese companies and their workers must be allowed entry. Malaysia reading the fine print decided to cancel all of its Chinese funded projects and investments as they see it as a new slow form of colonialism which they've been supported by Thailand and Vietnam, the result, increased military, cyber activity against them. China is performing its empire building over long multi generational increments. The fruits of which XJP and the gang don't expect to see fully in their life times but in that of their great grandchildren. Land grabs into India, Bhutan, numerous Islands.

Added to that its obvious human rights issues, false economy ( real economy expected to be around 30% less), no freedom of press etc etc.

Yes there is a cold war
 
Regarding this Belt Road Initiative, has it been working well?

I watched a program on Chinese involvement in Kenya and I was unimpressed.
  • The Kenyans argued it's colonialism all over again.
  • The Chinese showed no respect for local Kenyan culture and traditions.
  • There have even been fights between Chinese and Kenyans.

If this is how the Chinese conduct their Belt Road Initiative in all countries then I suspect it'll become a failure.
to be honest I work closely with international development - on a government / state level its been an incredible success - there are swathes of the world we dont even bother looking at anymore as the financial package the Chinese government puts together blows away any support we can bring from European governments ... its frankly incredible and whilst you will find instances of negativity I will say I dont know any government that does not look to them as the first port of call for future funding and as such Id say in terms of soft power and strategic alignment in the medium to long term its been an overwhelming success

Had a billion pound job that we just walked away from as we knew we couldn't get close to the tenure and interest rates on offer from China and strategically that will give the a huge foothold over some medium term strategic assets and ultimatley id guess there will be a £200 billion+ investment from china in that particular job / region.
 
China's expansion into the south china sea, literally building land for military bases and airfields, thousands of miles away to create a ring fence over what they claim is their territory in the area.
Its primarily defensive an unsinkable aircraft carrier from which to force Americas very sinkable aircraft carriers practical area of operation back so far as to render the planes mostly useless without intrinsically un-stealthy refueling operations happening well within airspace reachable by Chinese air defenses.

America wouldnt give a toss about the freedom of the seas if it wasn't for the strategic implications that negate their ability to bomb anywhere in the world on a whim... most probably the USA will use their soft power to increase access to operational bases in Japan, Korea, Philippines as a result then i suspect they will go quiet on the issue
 
Regarding this Belt Road Initiative, has it been working well?

I watched a program on Chinese involvement in Kenya and I was unimpressed.
  • The Kenyans argued it's colonialism all over again.
  • The Chinese showed no respect for local Kenyan culture and traditions.
  • There have even been fights between Chinese and Kenyans.

If this is how the Chinese conduct their Belt Road Initiative in all countries then I suspect it'll become a failure.

I think ultimately it will fail to have the impact that the Chinese hope it will have. The thing with trading with the US is, that they have a culture to import. Movies, brands, fashions - the Chinese don't have that. There is no soft power. You might have Govt to govt ties and even Business to business but nothing really in terms of people to people.

Also although Americans will consider their cultural values superior to those of others, they've been taught to respect multi-culturalism so they don't overly assert this opinion on other people. The Chinese (as far as their internet bots are concerned) aren't so savvy. Once you get past that "business only" veneer, the CPP-bots aren't very nice people, they're indocrinated into considering their point of view and their way or living as superior to others.
 
Whatever China does wrong it does wrong, but it doesn't worse than many other countries. Actually other countries do it worse. But western propaganda scrutinize and spins out, somtimes exagerate (and I would say once or twice lied) things way more than any other country and it is for an obvious reason.

Also, the west had done, is doing and will do things the same or worse than China and using their media to criticise China while maybe they should focus in cleaning your house is kind of hipocritical

That's a silly attitude. Everyone has domestic issues that need to be sorted, but that shouldn't stop criticism of foreign issues, especially ones concerning human rights and unelected (and elected tbh) governments. No country has, is or will be perfect and to focus only on cleaning your house and decline to criticise others may reduce the number of hypocrites but will the subsequent lack of accountability actually better the world? Criticism is good, and in general there should be a whole lot more of it in every direction. Feck the West if they do bad things, feck China if they do and I'd expect the governments, media and populace of both to participate. Lack of criticism in the end will only hurt ordinary people and aid governments who are doing or want to do bad things and help in obfuscation of these actions.
 
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to be honest I work closely with international development - on a government / state level its been an incredible success - there are swathes of the world we dont even bother looking at anymore as the financial package the Chinese government puts together blows away any support we can bring from European governments ... its frankly incredible and whilst you will find instances of negativity I will say I dont know any government that does not look to them as the first port of call for future funding and as such Id say in terms of soft power and strategic alignment in the medium to long term its been an overwhelming success

Had a billion pound job that we just walked away from as we knew we couldn't get close to the tenure and interest rates on offer from China and strategically that will give the a huge foothold over some medium term strategic assets and ultimatley id guess there will be a £200 billion+ investment from china in that particular job / region.

Very interesting information and it chimes with my geopolitical reading of the situation.

First and foremost, as a supporter of democracy I am very critical of the Chinese state and the curtailment of civil rights of their own population, but the western reaction to their soft power and increasing global influence has bordered on hysterical.

It's a relief to see that their rise on the global stage has been far more focused on economic influence than military expansion. Long may it stay that way as the fortunes of China and the USA are inextricably linked, and a hawkish stance from the US government towards China would be awful for billions of people around the world.

There's a good clip of Varoufakis being questioned by an American lady scared of Chinese imperialism where he discusses his experience in dealing with a proposed Chinese investment in Greece when he was finance minister and how it compares to other international corporations, which is quite funny and again underlines the point you were making above about Belt and Road.

 
to be honest I work closely with international development - on a government / state level its been an incredible success - there are swathes of the world we dont even bother looking at anymore as the financial package the Chinese government puts together blows away any support we can bring from European governments ... its frankly incredible and whilst you will find instances of negativity I will say I dont know any government that does not look to them as the first port of call for future funding and as such Id say in terms of soft power and strategic alignment in the medium to long term its been an overwhelming success

Had a billion pound job that we just walked away from as we knew we couldn't get close to the tenure and interest rates on offer from China and strategically that will give the a huge foothold over some medium term strategic assets and ultimatley id guess there will be a £200 billion+ investment from china in that particular job / region.
Thanks, that's interesting information. Though, I gotta ask, these regions where they invest in, are they genuine strategic assets? Would it truely increase China's influence?

I guess I find it hard to understand why the West can't win those regions over if they're truely strategically valuable.
 
I think ultimately it will fail to have the impact that the Chinese hope it will have. The thing with trading with the US is, that they have a culture to import. Movies, brands, fashions - the Chinese don't have that. There is no soft power. You might have Govt to govt ties and even Business to business but nothing really in terms of people to people.

Also although Americans will consider their cultural values superior to those of others, they've been taught to respect multi-culturalism so they don't overly assert this opinion on other people. The Chinese (as far as their internet bots are concerned) aren't so savvy. Once you get past that "business only" veneer, the CPP-bots aren't very nice people, they're indocrinated into considering their point of view and their way or living as superior to others.
Agreed, and I think this is a powerful factor for the Americans. Everybody loves entertainment (movies, music etc).
 
Thanks, that's interesting information. Though, I gotta ask, these regions where they invest in, are they genuine strategic assets? Would it truely increase China's influence?

I guess I find it hard to understand why the West can't win those regions over if they're truely strategically valuable.
certainly the stuff Im looking at yes they are genuinley strategic and yes it does greatly increase political influence over time (thats why we do it from the UK as well just not currently as effectivley) - a lot of it is to do with natural resource extractions where of course supply is ultimately finite

As to why - simply put the chinese have more money or place a higher importance on it - or likley a combination of both and as such offer better terms
 
Thanks, that's interesting information. Though, I gotta ask, these regions where they invest in, are they genuine strategic assets? Would it truely increase China's influence?

I guess I find it hard to understand why the West can't win those regions over if they're truely strategically valuable.
Yes.

For China, a key strategic concern is raw materials, particularly oil.

They are a highly industrialised nation but lack the natural resources in their own country to sustain their incredible recent industrialisation and expansion.

Ethiopia is a good example - China earned soft power and influence by paying for and building an enormous amount of infrastructure expansion for the country, because it was thought there were undiscovered oil reserves in the region. When oil was confirmed in 2018, the government was happy to work China and allow them to construct a pipeline.

Of course a more aggressive strategy has been pursued by the United States since World War 2 regarding natural resource control, but thankfully China's strategy has so far been far more benign and humanitarian. The United States usually pursues natural resources with the threat and use of their overwhelming military force, and also unlike China, they already have a huge amount of energy and natural resources in their own nation, so they control worldwide oil supplies primarily as a source of global power.
 
Personally I think the world will have to get used to China as a second power. There is no cold war strategy that will really work, because in the past the countries that were influenced had leaders who trusted the west, who have all since been burnt.

Look at the OBOR routes and look at key locations; how many of those countries have been screwed by the Americans in recent past? Pakistan is a perfect example. Even India a staunch US ally against China is being threatened with military sanctions if it buys the Russian S-400 missile system. It's a ridiculous approach.

The best way to counter it is;
  • unity amongst western nations; this is not the time for the EU to fracture but to join together and act as a single political and military bloc
  • investment in military spending; especially the EU countries. They need to be able to face the Russian threat independently of the US. You don't have to match the Russians tank for tank, but have what Pakistan terms strategic detterence. The ability to cause enough damage to the opponent to make the decision to go to war a lot harder. Israel has the same strategy to it's defence.
  • energy independence. Not only will this reduce dependence on Russian gas, but also help reset the incredibly toxic approach the US and it's NATO allies have to the Arab world and the near east. If you don't need the petrol pumps so much, you might actually have cordial relations with other nations in the region. We have a lot more in common with the European/Western world than we do with the Chinese.
  • More local manufacturing. This is by far the most important and the issue where China really wields control. If more things are built at home, there are less companies and politicians who feel the need to bend the knee to the Chinese. Look at Ozil for example. Call him Lazy all you like but we know he wasn't playing because nobody wanted to lose Chinese revenue/markets.
  • re-distributing manufacturing. China is not the only place in the world to get stuff made. There is plenty of opportunity for cheap manufacturing elsewhere. the US should focus on Latin America, the EU should consider North Africa, Eastern Europe, even west Africa. Nigeria has a huge population. and if you really want the extremely low wages Asia can offer - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia. Between these 6 countries there are early 2.2 billion people (mostly Indians!).
It won't happen though. Europe and the west generally is consumed by right wing politics, focused on deflecting blame externally, not interested in investing internally or in new markets, working to serve the big capitalist monsters who own the politicians. National interest comes second now.
 
Regarding local manufacturing, I think this would heavily impact stock prices for publicly traded companies. They have this "responsibility" to shareholders to produce as cheap as possible.
 
If Australia criticised a US president or policy, they wouldn't suddenly find that their meat exports get held up at American ports due to "entirely unrelated paperwork issues".

In America there is a limit and accountability for the exercise of power. China has none.

bilateral deal betwen 2 independent countries

https://indianexpress.com/article/i...ssia-may-trigger-us-sanctions-report-7133114/

this is a mild modern example when they're the sole superpower, not when they were in active competition
 
Predictions?

Mandarin Chinese will be the compulsory second language in every school around the globe by 2045.

The stability and continuance of its Government plus the Chinese historical approach to planning, means China can think in terms of 50 to 100 year cycles of strategic planning.

Only Russia assuming Putin's reign continues, will have any hope of thwarting the Chinese advances.

Ironically the one thing (besides two impeachments) that Trump will get any historical recognition for will be his attempts to thwart the Chinese advance with a trade war, thereby highlighting just what a strangle-hold grip the Chinese are taking around the world.

By the end of the 21st Century there is likely to be only one World Power, China!

Dájiä hăo
 
Predictions

Predictions?

Mandarin Chinese will be the compulsory second language in every school around the globe by 2045. - Not compulsory but probably an option offered by most and one that a lot of people will take up for the opportunities it can bring

The stability and continuance of its Government plus the Chinese historical approach to planning, means China can think in terms of 50 to 100 year cycles of strategic planning. - Im not sure even china plans that strategically - but certainly a 20 year horizon rather than what tax cuts they can offer in 4 years to win an election

Only Russia assuming Putin's reign continues, will have any hope of thwarting the Chinese advances. - I see Russias interests (being rich in natural resources and close to china) being more aligned than opposed

Ironically the one thing (besides two impeachments) that Trump will get any historical recognition for will be his attempts to thwart the Chinese advance with a trade war, thereby highlighting just what a strangle-hold grip the Chinese are taking around the world. - I think trump will be remembered for his botched Covid response and trying to start a civil war - plus quite possibly the raft of legal troubles he is about to face

By the end of the 21st Century there is likely to be only one World Power, China! - I think we will see China (and the surrounding Asian region), EU and USA basically symbiotic by then and quite possibly a more united Africa joining the top table if they can work out a governance structure ... i think the days of one hegemonic superpower will ultimately be a rather short chapter in history (Russian collapse to a few years from now but really its already ended in practical terms)... probably some idiots still thinking Britania can rule the waves and looking for some sunny uplands in the distance

Dájiä hăo
 
Ironically the one thing (besides two impeachments) that Trump will get any historical recognition for will be his attempts to thwart the Chinese advance with a trade war, thereby highlighting just what a strangle-hold grip the Chinese are taking around the world.

I think any 'credit' for that will go elsewhere... We all know who to. Trump's anticts with China have hurt the US just as much.
 
Predictions?

Mandarin Chinese will be the compulsory second language in every school around the globe by 2045.

The stability and continuance of its Government plus the Chinese historical approach to planning, means China can think in terms of 50 to 100 year cycles of strategic planning.

Only Russia assuming Putin's reign continues, will have any hope of thwarting the Chinese advances.


Ironically the one thing (besides two impeachments) that Trump will get any historical recognition for will be his attempts to thwart the Chinese advance with a trade war, thereby highlighting just what a strangle-hold grip the Chinese are taking around the world.

By the end of the 21st Century there is likely to be only one World Power, China!

Dájiä hăo
Russia?! The country with no demographic or economic growth of note? Mate, you're just an authoritarian at heart. You're like so many in history that have made the mistake of thinking that because democracies have internal divergences all the time, that seemingly single-minded authoritarian states have an advantage. But in reality democracies have prevailed time after time.
 
Personally I think the world will have to get used to China as a second power. There is no cold war strategy that will really work, because in the past the countries that were influenced had leaders who trusted the west, who have all since been burnt.

Look at the OBOR routes and look at key locations; how many of those countries have been screwed by the Americans in recent past? Pakistan is a perfect example. Even India a staunch US ally against China is being threatened with military sanctions if it buys the Russian S-400 missile system. It's a ridiculous approach.

The best way to counter it is;
  • unity amongst western nations; this is not the time for the EU to fracture but to join together and act as a single political and military bloc
  • investment in military spending; especially the EU countries. They need to be able to face the Russian threat independently of the US. You don't have to match the Russians tank for tank, but have what Pakistan terms strategic detterence. The ability to cause enough damage to the opponent to make the decision to go to war a lot harder. Israel has the same strategy to it's defence.
  • energy independence. Not only will this reduce dependence on Russian gas, but also help reset the incredibly toxic approach the US and it's NATO allies have to the Arab world and the near east. If you don't need the petrol pumps so much, you might actually have cordial relations with other nations in the region. We have a lot more in common with the European/Western world than we do with the Chinese.
  • More local manufacturing. This is by far the most important and the issue where China really wields control. If more things are built at home, there are less companies and politicians who feel the need to bend the knee to the Chinese. Look at Ozil for example. Call him Lazy all you like but we know he wasn't playing because nobody wanted to lose Chinese revenue/markets.
  • re-distributing manufacturing. China is not the only place in the world to get stuff made. There is plenty of opportunity for cheap manufacturing elsewhere. the US should focus on Latin America, the EU should consider North Africa, Eastern Europe, even west Africa. Nigeria has a huge population. and if you really want the extremely low wages Asia can offer - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia. Between these 6 countries there are early 2.2 billion people (mostly Indians!).
It won't happen though. Europe and the west generally is consumed by right wing politics, focused on deflecting blame externally, not interested in investing internally or in new markets, working to serve the big capitalist monsters who own the politicians. National interest comes second now.

Why would you want to counter it?

The only groups really threatened by Chinese economic development thus far are huge western (predominantly US) corporations, so unless you're Bill Gates it probably isn't something that's worth spending too much time strategizing.

I know your post wasn't literally calling for slowing China down, but it's always amused me how it's taken as an accepted truth that it's considered legitimate for the US and Europe to try and impede China's economic development.
 
Russia?! The country with no demographic or economic growth of note? Mate, you're just an authoritarian at heart. You're like so many in history that have made the mistake of thinking that because democracies have internal divergences all the time, that seemingly single-minded authoritarian states have an advantage. But in reality democracies have prevailed time after time.

True. And one reason for this is the diversity of creative thinking and ideas that democracy fosters, but which authoritarian regimes tend to suppress.
 
China's expansion into the south china sea, literally building land for military bases and airfields, thousands of miles away to create a ring fence over what they claim is their territory in the area. Put them within striking distance of Australia and their increased naval activity and incursions into other countries waters in the region, including practice bombing runs. Large increase annually into cyber attacks against numerous countries, the biggest espionage operations on multiple fronts ever seen in the last decade. The attempt to force the belt and road initiative on their terms onto foreign countries which includes the rights to create security bases at what they consider key points meaning military bases which amounts to nothing more than a debt trap that includes the takeover of ports for civilian and military purposes, creation of towns to house the Chinese workers who must come in as the contracts for the work has to be awarded to Chinese companies and their workers must be allowed entry. Malaysia reading the fine print decided to cancel all of its Chinese funded projects and investments as they see it as a new slow form of colonialism which they've been supported by Thailand and Vietnam, the result, increased military, cyber activity against them. China is performing its empire building over long multi generational increments. The fruits of which XJP and the gang don't expect to see fully in their life times but in that of their great grandchildren. Land grabs into India, Bhutan, numerous Islands.

Added to that its obvious human rights issues, false economy ( real economy expected to be around 30% less), no freedom of press etc etc.

Yes there is a cold war
Pretty much on the money.

They're a massive threat to the western world. China pretty much has the ideology that certain lands belong to them (i.e. Taiwan) and if they have a certain % of Han population in those lands they'll deem it as protecting their citizens. If it wasn't for the US, they would in a heartbeat take it back no question. The US Navy has been unrivalled for a long time but China is going to pip it to #1. They'll literally breed countries out of existence to expand outwards.

In all honesty, I wouldn't blame China for wanting to expand, grow, increase it's power and influence. But I side hard against some of the despicable things they've done / are continuing to do in terms of human rights. Therefore I side hard against China, as I don't want those things to be deemed right / normal.
 
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Pretty much on the money.

They're a massive threat to the western world. China pretty much has the ideology that certain lands belong to them (i.e. Taiwan) and if they have a certain % of population in those lands they'll deem it as protecting their citizens. If it wasn't for the US, they would in a heartbeat take it back no question. The US Navy has been unrivalled for a long time but China is going to pip it to #1. They'll literally breed countries out of existence, on purpose, to expand outwards.
do you want to explain that?
 
Pretty much on the money.

They're a massive threat to the western world. China pretty much has the ideology that certain lands belong to them (i.e. Taiwan) and if they have a certain % of Han population in those lands they'll deem it as protecting their citizens. If it wasn't for the US, they would in a heartbeat take it back no question. The US Navy has been unrivalled for a long time but China is going to pip it to #1. They'll literally breed countries out of existence, on purpose, to expand outwards.

In all honesty, I wouldn't blame China for wanting to expand, grow, increase it's power and influence. But I side hard against some of the despicable things they've done / are continuing to do in terms of human rights. Therefore I side hard against China, as I don't want those things to be deemed right / normal.

As questionable as the 'breed out of existence' part sounds, I don't like throwing accusations of racism around lightly so I'll refrain from using the r word. Suffice it to say this sounds absolutely deranged.
 
A lot of issues could be solved if Western countries started manufacturing more of their own products but in a responsible way i.e environmentally sound and with decent workers wages.
Too few people want to pay the end price though.

Look at Amazon today - it looks to me like 80% of everything sold on Amazon is made in China. People like it cheap.
 
Why would you want to counter it?

The only groups really threatened by Chinese economic development thus far are huge western (predominantly US) corporations, so unless you're Bill Gates it probably isn't something that's worth spending too much time strategizing.

I know your post wasn't literally calling for slowing China down, but it's always amused me how it's taken as an accepted truth that it's considered legitimate for the US and Europe to try and impede China's economic development.

I don't think long term the rise of China will impact society wider society in a positive way. I don't think western hegemony benefits the rest of us either, but I fear what the Chinese equivalent would look like. These people are ethnically cleansing their own countrymen right now, I don't want to see a China which has both the capability and the designs to impose itself like that beyond it's borders. I think some healthy competition for China would help, it'd also help the rest of us caught in between the two major world powers.

I'm a Pakistani (a British Pakistani, but I do very much identify with my Pakistani identity too). Pakistan is firmly in the Chinese camp, they're giving us tens of billions in loans for infrastructure development, then sending in their own companies to under cut the competition and win the contracts. Pakistan provides the labour and the materials, China provides the expertise. Once these roads, railway lines, power plants, economic zones, airports and docks are built who will benefit from it? Pakistan still has to develop the industry and the companies and businesses to take advantage of this infrastructure. It's upto our business community coupled with our government to do that. meanwhile China already has the freight ready to ship down there, it has the companies looking to move manufacturing into even cheaper Pakistan and take advantage of the tax free tarrifs in the SEZ's. Ultimately the Pakistani taxpayer foots the bill for something which might benefit us, but will definitely benefit the Chinese. At what cost? Currently we're silent about the Uighurs, what tomorrow? If we end up in a debt trap what then? This is the country where a black Ops operative shot dead intelligence officers in the light of day in the middle of a busy part of Lahore and was shipped off to the US after the families were forced to accept bloody money in a maniuplation of Shariah law. Our leadership class can't be trusted to look out for national interest, let alone the interest of the countries nationals. The same is true for many developing countries.
 
Its less than 10% in tibet and han % population is decreasing in Mongolia?
I didn't know the Han population was decreasing in Mongolia, but the Tibet % you gave is what "China say is less than 10%". China have a huge migrant worker population in Tibet which the Chinese don't deem as 'residents' therefore don't add to the population. But apparently Han neighborhoods dominate the urban areas and takes that number way way above 10%. (my source is from a book called Prisoners of Geography by Tim Marshall, it's a really good read, totally recommend it :) ) If you would like to google Han population in Tibet, you'll get quite a few articles pop up with claims stating the numbers are much higher.
"https://hongkong.universitypresssch...2092020.001.0001/upso-9789622092020-chapter-3"

Obviously I've just googled (you generally get what you search for) that but it does seem to be an ongoing theme of "someone isn't telling the truth".

As questionable as the 'breed out of existence' part sounds, I don't like throwing accusations of racism around lightly so I'll refrain from using the r word. Suffice it to say this sounds absolutely deranged.
That statement may have been too harsh/powerful of a statement. Apologies if it offended anyone.
 
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But in reality democracies have prevailed time after time.

Hope you are right about this, but it looks as if Democracy ( the 'mob rule' definition) might have run its course, for now; especially if there is any more pandemics waiting in the wings.
Governments with Autocratic powers will be need to restore/keep order, but lets hope for the best, whilst preparing for the worst!
 
Hope you are right about this, but it looks as if Democracy ( the 'mob rule' definition) might have run its course, for now; especially if there is any more pandemics waiting in the wings.
Governments with Autocratic powers will be need to restore/keep order, but lets hope for the best, whilst preparing for the worst!
You could've said that in 1940 (German victory in France), 1941 (Japan catching the US with its pants down), 1957 (Sputnik 1st satellite in space), 1975 (fall of Saigon, US humiliation in Vietnam complete), and probably a few others times in history. And yet here we are, the autocratic states of each day that looked to have outsmarted the leading democracies all just pages in history books now.
 
You could've said that in 1940 (German victory in France), 1941 (Japan catching the US with its pants down), 1957 (Sputnik 1st satellite in space), 1975 (fall of Saigon, US humiliation in Vietnam complete), and probably a few others times in history. And yet here we are, the autocratic states of each day that looked to have outsmarted the leading democracies all just pages in history books now.

Sure, but you could also have said that between World War 1 and World War 2, when the relatively new democracies were falling to authoritarianism one by one. The fact that World War 2 happened and turned many of them (not all) into democracies again doesn't mean that's how it had to happen. It's dangerous to think of history as an endless march towards progress.
 
Sure, but you could also have said that between World War 1 and World War 2, when the relatively new democracies were falling to authoritarianism one by one. The fact that World War 2 happened and turned many of them (not all) into democracies again doesn't mean that's how it had to happen. It's dangerous to think of history as an endless march towards progress.
I actually agree with you, it just wasn't my point. I'm countering the notion that autocratic countries are at an advantage vs democratic countries in terms of great power competition.
 
That's a silly attitude. Everyone has domestic issues that need to be sorted, but that shouldn't stop criticism of foreign issues, especially ones concerning human rights and unelected (and elected tbh) governments. No country has, is or will be perfect and to focus only on cleaning your house and decline to criticise others may reduce the number of hypocrites but will the subsequent lack of accountability actually better the world? Criticism is good, and in general there should be a whole lot more of it in every direction. Feck the West if they do bad things, feck China if they do and I'd expect the governments, media and populace of both to participate. Lack of criticism in the end will only hurt ordinary people and aid governments who are doing or want to do bad things and help in obfuscation of these actions.

Agree, My main point is that China and the West (the power that rules them) resembles to each other more than we would like but with different styles and denying that the West (the media) criticizes China because is the competition and not because of the human rights violations is being blind