Club Sale | It’s done!

[VP89]

What makes him a “football person”?

His background is sports science. Because he’s worked in football for a while? .

Nonsense.
He's been doing some good work at the club prior to becoming DoF which extends to the academy and the women's team which went from inception in Chanpionship to fighting with the top teams of WSL in under 3 years.

He may not be the ultimate candidate but to bucket his him as some bloke who works in football like Abramovic is just stupid.

 

[Adnan]

Nonsense.
He's been doing some good work at the club prior to becoming DoF which extends to the academy and the women's team which went from inception in Chanpionship to fighting with the top teams of WSL in under 3 years.

He may not be the ultimate candidate but to bucket his him as some bloke who works in football like Abramovic is just stupid.

I agree VP

Murtough was the head of performance at Everton in 2002, and his remit was to analyse football matches at EPL level under Walter Smith. He would later be hired by various other clubs to modernise their scouting and football departments which is documented in the piece below by Laurie Whitwell. Whitwell also went on to mention that Murtough was tasked with overseeing the development of the young players and coaches in his role at the premier league. And it's well known about Murtough developing the strategy at youth team level at United where the results are about to be seen of his work starting with Garnacho.

https://theathletic.com/3127282/2022/02/15/john-murtough-man-tasked-trying-fix-manchester-united/

I don't agree with Devilish on most things, but it's more than plausible to question Dave Brailsford's credentials in a structural capacity on the football side of the club.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Nonsense.
He's been doing some good work at the club prior to becoming DoF which extends to the academy and the women's team which went from inception in Chanpionship to fighting with the top teams of WSL in under 3 years.

He may not be the ultimate candidate but to bucket his him as some bloke who works in football like Abramovic is just stupid.

I like Murtough mate, you’re just getting the wrong end of the stick here.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I don't agree with Devilish on most things, but it's more than plausible to question Dave Brailsford's credentials in a structural capacity on the football side of the club.

But Brailsford isn’t employed by Nice, that’s the point. Nice have their own new DOF.
Who would be better qualified to head the sporting side of INEOS?

Devilish is criticising Ratcliffe for having Brailsford as sporting director at INEOS, first off believing he was the football director of Nice. He was corrected on that, but then questioned his football credentials. It makes no sense, that’s not his job.

Are we questioning the structure of INEOS sports? In which case, someone should suggest who is more qualified to head that role. It appears too many people are making the mistake of thinking Brailsford is the football director of Nice.

 

[Champ]

Interesting to note that Newcastle United invited Brailsford to advise them and give assistance to Ashworth this pre season.

Seems strange that a club in renaissance like Newcastle would invite someone who had no clue about elite sports to do that really.

 

[devilish]

Or the guy that already has two football clubs, is looking to run them clubs as one entity to enable to flagship club to proper and get better deals for good young players?

Or the American investors who are in it purely for financial gain, who already own shares in Crystal Palace, who have flirted with both Chelsea and Liverpool, who actually are not cash rich at all in comparison to what Ratcliffe could offer?

Seems you have blinkers on and are unable to actually see other potential bids with the same tinted spectacles you use when viewing Ratcliffe.

Ratcliffe's investment into his two clubs was minimal. He appointed his own brother as Nice CEO, he involved in its management someone with a cycling background and who was once in the middle of a scandal(he's living in a Caravan near Nice training ground) and neither Nice nor the Swiss club they bought seem to have done any tangible move forward. Meanwhile his bid for Chelsea came very late and he urged Raine to consider it because, well, its a British bid. That does stink of amateur.

And what makes you think that Ratcliffe won't go for pure financial gain? The guy is frigging ruthless. His companies pollute the very country he claim to like and he supported Brexit because that would keep stringent EU laws about pollution from being implemented. He now live in tax free Monaco while claiming to love United having previously been Chelsea season ticket holder and had tried to buy that very club. Regarding the money thing I agree that its a concern (same with Jim Brexit) but at least these American investors have shown that they are ready to pump some serious money into their investment.

 

[devilish]

What makes him a “football person”?

His background is sports science. Because he’s worked in football for a while? Well that makes Roman Abromovich a football person then, or I guess Ed Woodward is now a football person too, and at what point does Brailsford suddenly “become” a football person? Is it 2 years? 4 years?

He heads the sporting director role at INEOS, that’s cycling, motor racing, running, sailing, rugby, football. How does someone get to be a “everything person”

He’s extremely extremely qualified for his current position, he’s not a “mate put at the top of a pyramid”.
Would Murtough be qualified for that position at INEOS? Would Leonardo? Would Begiristain? Cause what the feck do they know about all those other disciplines?

It’s a daft argument, Nice have a football director, INEOS have a Sporting Director which to me sounds a whole lot better of a setup than some finance numpty doing the INEOS role.

I am the least suited to defend Murtough considering that I never wanted him from day 1. If you want someone to defend Murtough's credentials then I urge you to engage with Adnan. He certainly believe in Murtough far more then I do. Having said that, Murtough is a football man. He started in sport science at Everton and then was promoted as the club's head of football development. He then became Premier League’s head of elite performance only to move with United were he covered multiple roles.

Brailsford has no idea about football and yet he was fount living in a caravan at the training ground of the French football team OGC Nice, where he has been director of sport since December 2021. That sound like someone whose very involved into the club's day to day management. I also think that football is at a far higher level then cycling is. Thus if I had to choose someone in the role then I'd rather have a football person then someone in cycling especially if the guy in cycling was involved into a quite a nasty scandal. If Murtough was involved into something of that kind then he would be lynched (metaphorically speaking). I know because I would be the first leading the line.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...lures-at-british-cycling-and-team-sky-says-mp

 

[Glorio]

I am the least suited to defend Murtough considering that I never wanted him from day 1. If you want someone to defend Murtough's credentials then I urge you to engage with Adnan. He certainly believe in Murtough far more then I do. Having said that, Murtough is a football man. He started in sport science at Everton and then was promoted as the club's head of football development. He then became Premier League’s head of elite performance only to move with United were he covered multiple roles.

Brailsford has no idea about football and yet he was fount living in a caravan at the training ground of the French football team OGC Nice, where he has been director of sport since December 2021. That sound like someone whose very involved into the club's day to day management. I also think that football is at a far higher level then cycling is. Thus if I had to choose someone in the role then I'd rather have a football person then someone in cycling especially if the guy in cycling was involved into a quite a nasty scandal. If Murtough was involved into something of that kind then he would be lynched (metaphorically speaking). I know because I would be the first leading the line.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...lures-at-british-cycling-and-team-sky-says-mp

Better still, let's have @LuckyScout78 do an epic write-up

 

[Champ]

Ratcliffe's investment into his two clubs was minimal. He appointed his own brother as Nice CEO, he involved in its management someone with a cycling background and who was once in the middle of a scandal(he's living in a Caravan near Nice training ground) and neither Nice nor the Swiss club they bought seem to have done any tangible move forward. Meanwhile his bid for Chelsea came very late and he urged Raine to consider it because, well, its a British bid. That does stink of amateur.

And what makes you think that Ratcliffe won't go for pure financial gain? The guy is frigging ruthless. His companies pollute the very country he claim to like and he supported Brexit because that would keep stringent EU laws about pollution from being implemented. He now live in tax free Monaco while claiming to love United having previously been Chelsea season ticket holder and had tried to buy that very club. Regarding the money thing I agree that its a concern (same with Jim Brexit) but at least these American investors have shown that they are ready to pump some serious money into their investment.

I'm done trying to explain what INEOs and Ratcliffe are trying to do with these clubs, if you can't comprehend it I suggest you stop talking about it.
It makes no sense to have a viewpoint on something you can't understand.

It wasn't t long ago you were advocating for the richest person to buy United no matter who that was, now you want an investment sports firm who are worth a tenth of INEOs and are not cash rich to buy United.

You're arguments and viewpoints flit from one polar to the opposite depending on what news story you read that day.

 

[devilish]

Better still, let's have @LuckyScout78 do an epic write-up

Adnan is quite knowledgeable about Murtough. I dare to say that he is the most knowledgeable on the matter in the CAF. Which of course lead to a clash with me as he (Murtough not Adnan of course) would be the first guy to kick out of the club if given the opportunity.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Brailsford has no idea about football and yet he was fount living in a caravan at the training ground of the French football team OGC Nice, where he has been director of sport since December 2021.

First off, innocent until proven guilty.

Second off, he doesn’t have a position at Nice. He’s the INEOS director of sport.

 

[devilish]

I'm done trying to explain what INEOs and Ratcliffe are trying to do with these clubs, if you can't comprehend it I suggest you stop talking about it.
It makes no sense to have a viewpoint on something you can't understand.

It wasn't t long ago you were advocating for the richest person to buy United no matter who that was, now you want an investment sports firm who are worth a tenth of INEOs and are not cash rich to buy United.

You're arguments and viewpoints flit from one polar to the opposite depending on what news story you read that day.

United is valued at 6-8B. We need a further investment of 1B-2B into the club (stadium, training ground etc). So for this to work then I believe that the owner in question will need to be filthy rich. He would probably need to be far more richer then Ratcliffe or any American investor mentioned so far.

However if we take that out of the picture then the next important thing is that the owner need to have the balls to seriously invest in the club (money means nothing if its kept in the owner's pockets) and the knowledge to manage a sports entity effectively. That means appointing the right people in the job and ending up the winner of every race. I remember a time when United financially struggled against the Serie A clubs. For example we were an inch away from buying Batistuta from Fiorentina only to learn that we couldn't afford his salary. Yet thanks to a wonderful youth academy + a highly developed scouting net (the one unearthing Kanchelskis, Schmeichel, Ole and Johnsen) we were still very competitive. I simply can't see us becoming that with Ratcliffe. Everything surrounding his football proceedings stink of amateur from his very late bid for Chelsea right to the way he's handling Nice and the Swiss club. Maybe I am wrong and if he does buy us then I hope that I am.

 

[devilish]

First off, innocent until proven guilty.

Second off, he doesn’t have a position at Nice. He’s the INEOS director of sport.

He was living in a caravan near to the Nice training ground.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...to-rescue-his-floundering-football-experiment

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

He was living in a caravan near to the Nice training ground.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...to-rescue-his-floundering-football-experiment

Good, show’s real commitment.

If he isn’t deciding things like who should be the new DoF there, who is? At United it was Woodward or Joel, at Chelsea it’s Boehley. At nearly every club it’s a finance guy or a president/politician.
Much better than it’s a sports person in his INEOS role.
Who would you prefer did that role? Jim himself?

 

[Champ]

United is valued at 6-8B. We need a further investment of 1B-2B into the club (stadium, training ground etc). So for this to work then I believe that the owner in question will need to be filthy rich. He would probably need to be far more richer then Ratcliffe or any American investor mentioned so far.

However if we take that out of the picture then the next important thing is that the owner need to have the balls to seriously invest in the club (money means nothing if its kept in the owner's pockets) and the knowledge to manage a sports entity effectively. That means appointing the right people in the job and ending up the winner of every race. I remember a time when United financially struggled against the Serie A clubs. For example we were an inch away from buying Batistuta from Fiorentina only to learn that we couldn't afford his salary. Yet thanks to a wonderful youth academy + a highly developed scouting net (the one unearthing Kanchelskis, Schmeichel, Ole and Johnsen) we were still very competitive. I simply can't see us becoming that with Ratcliffe. Everything surrounding his football proceedings stink of amateur from his very late bid for Chelsea right to the way he's handling Nice and the Swiss club. Maybe I am wrong and if he does buy us then I hope that I am.

It's a good job it isn't Ratcliffe buying the club then, INEOs turns over around 80b dollars so funds are not an issue at all.

Another point you don't appear to comprehend but you are not the only one in here.

I guess we won't know if your wrong or right until it actually happens, if it happens.

I guess the one thing we do both agree on is we want to best outcome for the club.

 

[Adnan]

But Brailsford isn’t employed by Nice, that’s the point. Nice have their own new DOF.
Who would be better qualified to head the sporting side of INEOS?

Devilish is criticising Ratcliffe for having Brailsford as sporting director at INEOS, first off believing he was the football director of Nice. He was corrected on that, but then questioned his football credentials. It makes no sense, that’s not his job.

Are we questioning the structure of INEOS sports? In which case, someone should suggest who is more qualified to head that role. It appears too many people are making the mistake of thinking Brailsford is the football director of Nice.

That's fair enough.

And it does look like they've brought in a young Sporting Director from RC Lens, which I think is a positive move.

 

[AlPistacho]

It's a good job it isn't Ratcliffe buying the club then, INEOs turns over around 80b dollars so funds are not an issue at all.

Another point you don't appear to comprehend but you are not the only one in here.

I guess we won't know if your wrong or right until it actually happens, if it happens.

I guess the one thing we do both agree on is we want to best outcome for the club.

INEOS turns over £80b a year, I don’t know how shareholders/stakeholders will response to the company buying United.

 

[devilish]

Good, show’s real commitment.

If he isn’t deciding things like who should be the new DoF there, who is? At United it was Woodward or Joel, at Chelsea it’s Boehley. At nearly every club it’s a finance guy or a president/politician.
Much better than it’s a sports person in his INEOS role.
Who would you prefer did that role? Jim himself?

It shows that this director of sports whose got a bird's eye on everything Ineos related (sports side) is BS. The guy is pretty much involved in the day to day running of Nice FC. Regarding your question my answer has been always quite consistent ie I'd go for experience and CV . If for example I owned United then I'd go for either Marotta or VDS as CEO, Edwards as DOF and Mitchell as head of recruitment.

 

[devilish]

It's a good job it isn't Ratcliffe buying the club then, INEOs turns over around 80b dollars so funds are not an issue at all.

Another point you don't appear to comprehend but you are not the only one in here.

I guess we won't know if your wrong or right until it actually happens, if it happens.

I guess the one thing we do both agree on is we want to best outcome for the club.

I don't know how INEOS is structured but I doubt that most of that profit as investment in football clubs. There's nothing that suggest that. I agree on the rest especially the last sentence. What worries me is that some (I am not accusing anyone in particular) is being blinkered by the fact that Ratcliffe is local and a United fan. I prefer an alien who invest heavily on United and knows what he's doing then a local who does anything then that.

 

[phelans shorts]

It shows that this director of sports who’s got a bird's eye on everything Ineos related (sports side) is BS. The guy is pretty much involved in the day to day running of Nice FC. If I was an owner of a club then I'd go for experience and CV . If for example I owned United then I'd go for either Marotta or VDS as CEO, Edwards or Rangnick as DOF and Mitchell as head of recruitment.

 

[devilish]

???

 

[Champ]

INEOS turns over £80b a year, I don’t know how shareholders/stakeholders will response to the company buying United.

I'd imagine given the profile boost it would give INEOS, they'd be chuffed to bits as the share price would probably increase.

Put it this way, Bob Ratcliffe said Nice was a way of spending INEOs dividends....

 

[Messier1994]

If Forbes value the club at less than 4 billlion then why would anyone pay 6?

I get what you mean, but ultimately:
A valuation = is a guess what someone would pay
A Purchase Price = what someone have paid, and per definition the actual value of a Company

If you look up the definition of what value something has — it’s what someone would pay for it (on a free market etc etc etc).

But you have a point, since an independent valuation is often to a large extent based on projected future earnings and the likelihood of them occurring.

However, it should be underlines that the last years, the investors looking to buy assets based on the fundamentals of the object have been tremendously frustrated with all assets basically being really overvalued. Why is that? There is just so much money out there. Go back 20-30 years and a small part of the western world expected a decent pension. Now there billions of people who hope to get it. Every pension fund manager must get a good return on his investment, or people just won’t get the pension they expect/have been promised.

How bad was/is the valuations? Like someone came up with the idea that they should make trucks running on hydrogen and build a hydrogen network of “fuel” pumps and hence get a monopoly. When they picked a name it was like, damn Tesla is taken, let’s go with Nikolai Tesla’s first name then, so they formed the company Nikolai. They had not built a single truck. They didn’t own a single fuel pump. They wanted something to show for investor so they pulled a futuristic shell of a truck up a hill and pushed it down so it looked like it was running. What did the market value the company to? 35 billion, here you go. You and I and everyone else with some kind of pension indirectly owned shares in that company (everyone has some kind of US index fund investment).

So why did everyone invest on that type of market? The answer was simple “There Is No Alternative” (refereed to as “TINA”). If you has an assignment to get a 4% profit of an investment, you cannot put it in a banking account with 1% interest, you must gamble.

The market is slightly different now — which I think is the biggest treat to any sale of United. Today you can get a 5-6% direct yield from a fairly safe investment. It’s hard to get funding. For those who get funding, there are many opportunities out there.

 

[Champ]

I don't know how INEOS is structured but I doubt that most of that profit as investment in football clubs. There's nothing that suggest that. I agree on the rest especially the last sentence. What worries me is that some (I am not accusing anyone in particular) is being blinkered by the fact that Ratcliffe is local and a United fan. I prefer an alien who invest heavily on United and knows what he's doing then a local who does anything then that.

What I mean by INEOS is they have the funds to splurge at United, by turning over 80billion dollars they are making a lot of money, which is half the reason they have Nice, as Jim's brother stated, Nice is a way to spend the dividends.

We have just spent well over a decade trying to get an ownership out that knew nothing about the history and prestige of the club, I don't want the club to go through that again to further our decline.

 

[Spoony]

So... Have we been sold yet?

 

[Bogga]

Another thing is the geographical growth of football.
*The PL rights in the US is worth 27m per PL team per year.
*The PL rights for Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland is worth 20m per PL team per year.
*The entire Asia and Pacific area is worth 15m per year.

I know we've always followed english football and that our countries are considered rich... but considering we're only ~23 million people in total in those four countries makes it mindboggling if you compare it to the US and APAC

 

[TheReligion]

@devilish considering you admit to knowing very little about these people you sure do have a very defined view on things don’t you?

 

[Messier1994]

I know we've always followed english football and that our countries are considered rich... but considering we're only ~23 million people in total in those four countries makes it mindboggling if you compare it to the US and APAC

For sure. To some extent, the time difference will always hold us back some vs NA and Asia. In NA we play really early, like 8am on Saturdays or really late in Asia. But the potential there is still huge.

 

[rimaldo]

So... Have we been sold yet?

the glazers have asked for proof of human rights atrocities as they have a concern that some of the numbers have been inflated to try and strengthen bids.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It shows that this director of sports whose got a bird's eye on everything Ineos related (sports side) is BS. The guy is pretty much involved in the day to day running of Nice FC. Regarding your question my answer has been always quite consistent ie I'd go for experience and CV . If for example I owned United then I'd go for either Marotta or VDS as CEO, Edwards as DOF and Mitchell as head of recruitment.

But I’m not asking you for United, someone has to have that role for INEOS. So who should decide the CEO or the DoF at Nice?
Jim? Or a sports person?

Should the CEO decide who the DoF is, who then decides who the CEO is?

At some point you reach the stage where it’s either an owner or a president deciding, in INEOS case at least it’s a fecking successful sports person in that role.

If you get your wish and some Arabs buy United, why would you be more comfortable with them deciding who the CEO and DoF is rather than, you know, an actual fecking sports person with a successful background in sports. Why would a Sheikh be better at it?

Feels like a bizarre thing to criticise INEOS for.

 

[devilish]

But I’m not asking you for United, someone has to have that role for INEOS. So who should decide the CEO or the DoF at Nice?
Jim? Or a sports person?

Should the CEO decide who the DoF is, who then decides who the CEO is?

At some point you reach the stage where it’s either an owner or a president deciding, in INEOS case at least it’s a fecking successful sports person in that role.

If you get your wish and some Arabs buy United, why would you be more comfortable with them deciding who the CEO and DoF is rather than, you know, an actual fecking sports person with a successful background in sports. Why would a Sheikh be better at it?

Feels like a bizarre thing to criticise INEOS for.

What experience does Brailsford has in football as compared to others? Why is someone whose career in cycling is shrouded by scandals be more appropriate in choosing a football CEO then the owner himself? What is someone with such chequered history doing as INEOS head of sports in the first place?

There again we're talking of a company whose owner who had supported Brexit and who had had threatened to close shop if EU laws on pollution are implemented. Someone who had polluted many areas in Britain including Manchester itself. In fact Ineos is considered the major polluter in Scotland. Anything surrounding Jim Ratcliffe seem either shady or bordering amateur from his late bid to get Chelsea (whom he's a season ticket holder despite managing United) to how his clubs are run which is characterized by minimum investment, little progress and a bike guy now director of sports sleeping in a Caravan close to Nice FC training grounds. A guy that was caught with his pants down in his line of expertise and yet he is expected to be this guru in any sort of sports including one he has no experience in.

Regarding ME owners, at the risk of generalizing (which I might be doing). I know three things having met people of their ilk. They are insanely rich, they are insanely proud and they can't stomach failure. Thus they would throw millions at the problem and they'll keep hiring the best people up until they get it right. Jim Ratcliffe doesn't come across at that sort of person at least in the way he's managing his football clubs.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

What experience does Brailsford has in football as compared to others? Why is someone whose career in cycling is shrouded by scandals be more appropriate in choosing a football CEO then the owner himself? What is someone with such chequered history doing as INEOS head of sports in the first place?.

Has he been proven guilty in anything other than devilish head?

Clearly a guy who’s had success in that role in cycling, motor racing & running is more appropriate to make sporting decisions.

 

[devilish]

Has he been proven guilty in anything other than devilish head?

Clearly a guy who’s had success in that role in cycling, motor racing & running is more appropriate to make sporting decisions.

Considering the extent to which organizations managed by this guy are ready to reach to be 'successful' then no wonder why he is such a success. Meanwhile maybe we should bring Tadej Pogačar to replace Ronaldo up front.

 

[Messier1994]

So Avram Glazer was having dinner yesterday with Tim Cook, CEO of Apple…
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ook-among-biden-s-guests-at-dinner-for-macron

(and a bunch of other guys)

 

[red thru&thru]

So Avram Glazer was having dinner yesterday with Tim Cook, CEO of Apple…
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ook-among-biden-s-guests-at-dinner-for-macron

(and a bunch of other guys)

Damn paywall.

I'm supposing nothing was mentioned about United and sale to United.

 

[Messier1994]

Damn paywall.

I'm supposing nothing was mentioned about United and sale to United.

No, sorry, probably 100 guests if not more at the White House for the Macron state visit. Both Avram Glazer and Tim Cook was among the guests — but it was not covered at all in the article.

They had lobster.

 

[red thru&thru]

No, sorry, probably 100 guests if not more at the White House for the Macron state visit. Both Avram Glazer and Tim Cook was among the guests — but it was not covered at all in the article.

They had lobster.

Hahaha, lobster!

Thanks for confirming.

 

[Glorio]

Adnan is quite knowledgeable about Murtough. I dare to say that he is the most knowledgeable on the matter in the CAF. Which of course lead to a clash with me as he (Murtough not Adnan of course) would be the first guy to kick out of the club if given the opportunity.

Luckyscout78 is way more eloquent though - facts are overrated

 

[AdamColeBebe]

No, sorry, probably 100 guests if not more at the White House for the Macron state visit. Both Avram Glazer and Tim Cook was among the guests — but it was not covered at all in the article.

They had lobster.

Sauce?

 

[Messier1994]

Sauce?

The full menu:
Butter Poached Maine Lobster American Osetra Caviar Delicata Squash Raviolo Tarragon Sauce

Calotte of Beef, Shallot Marmalade Triple Cooked Butter Potatoes Sunchoke & Creamed Watercress
Red Wine Reduction