You can boil it down even further to: the biggest outrage was how the Premier League allowed Manchester United to be bought by a family that couldn't afford it. Whether other clubs like it or not United is the face of English football and the Premier League. Had the Premier League intervened nearly two decades ago then we'd never be having this conversation in the first place. Like you said, reap what you sow.
Club Sale | It’s done!
- Thread starter JB08
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Nowadays it is but that's the fruit of the managing a club like a business ideology that was developed in the late 90s-early 2000s. And that's also only at the top, at lower levels and its in second divisions many clubs are just the passion of an owner and a community, they don't care about things like FFP or making profits.
I just perused through INEOS' Q3 statement and even though I am not a financial expert few things caught my eye: - (INEOS Group Holdings S.A.)
- Revenus for the nine months ended in 30th September 2022 is €16B.
- Total comprehensive income for the nine months ended 30th September 2022 is €2.6B
- Total Net Debt as of 30th September 2022 is €5B.
- Consolidated Balance Sheet also shows that Total Assets at €19.9B, Total Equity at €5.7B and Total Liabilities at €14.2B.
It seems that INEOS will increase their revenues compared to 2021 which was at €18B versus nine months so far in 2022 which is already at €16B, they have some significant debt at €5B but it should be manageable for them at it's within the optimal levels probably.
Now, purchasing a majority shares of MUFC or buying 100% of MUFC will cost anything between 5B and 6B, which means they will need a get a loan for the entire amount, and if that amount is added into INEOS' total debt then that will significantly increase their exposure, that's of course based on my surface level understanding of the published financial reports, the parent company is a private one and they probably don't share or publish their financial so the info we can find online is quite limited.
Is there any financial gurus in the forum who can explain the Q3 Report of 2022? Perhaps someone can shed light of INEOS ability to actually buy the club.
- Revenus for the nine months ended in 30th September 2022 is €16B.
- Total comprehensive income for the nine months ended 30th September 2022 is €2.6B
- Total Net Debt as of 30th September 2022 is €5B.
- Consolidated Balance Sheet also shows that Total Assets at €19.9B, Total Equity at €5.7B and Total Liabilities at €14.2B.
It seems that INEOS will increase their revenues compared to 2021 which was at €18B versus nine months so far in 2022 which is already at €16B, they have some significant debt at €5B but it should be manageable for them at it's within the optimal levels probably.
Now, purchasing a majority shares of MUFC or buying 100% of MUFC will cost anything between 5B and 6B, which means they will need a get a loan for the entire amount, and if that amount is added into INEOS' total debt then that will significantly increase their exposure, that's of course based on my surface level understanding of the published financial reports, the parent company is a private one and they probably don't share or publish their financial so the info we can find online is quite limited.
Is there any financial gurus in the forum who can explain the Q3 Report of 2022? Perhaps someone can shed light of INEOS ability to actually buy the club.
People are gonna have to come to terms with the idea that anything we win under a Qatari ownership will forever come with an asterisk for the majority of people. Whether that's fair or not won't matter.
Who gives a rats arse about what anyone else thinks?
We can apply a double asterisk for anything we won during the past 17years as 'despite of the glazers'.
What if we don’t spend more than we did last summer?
He knows. That's why he does it. Saudis don't want competition.
So if we spend money that we generate and don't break any rules, any trophies we win will not be valid to "the majority of people"? Well that would make "the majority of people" morons, and the opinions of a moron aren't worth shit
Why has he been vocal about the fact that Saudi Arabia shouldn't have been allowed to buy Newcastle, then?
It will be immaterial to everyone who isn't a united fan. As I said it doesn't matter whether its fair or not, that will be the perception.
This thread's giving off summer of Sneijder vibes
Bingo
Shameless.
Invent a quote not based in reality and expect those calling you on it to accept it.
I'm an investment analyst for a living, but honestly I just can't be arsed to do it fully. When I took a look at their full-year 2021 results my impression was that it was doable (would add ~2-2.5x leverage in terms of debt/EBITDA), but it's a little bit of a stretch and not exactly prudent. As I remarked earlier in this thread or the other ones, every time I read about the financials of Man Utd I can't help but think "what a shitty business". Not United specifically but football clubs in general, the ROI on incremental spend be it player purchases or stadium improvements is so so low.
From a cold financial perspective no one should really buy it unless they think that the growth in revenues in the next 5-10 years will be such to justify another 3-5x increase in the club value, plus you're really counting on a greater fool to come along to buy it from you. It's really tough to justify just on the basis of the cash flows you can get out of it as an owner/shareholder.
Hope the Qatar lot show up tonight wearing green and gold scarves just for the twitter chaos it would cause.
Without co investors the short answer is NO.
A full takeover including a new stadium, new or improved training facilities, clearing ALL sorts of debts and investing in our academy, men and women‘s team will cost somewhere between £7-9 billions. Maybe even more. Judging by their latest annual report INEOS needs to finance almost everything to a premium interest rate, probably in the ball park between 6-10%. Only the interest of the loans will cost them annually more than £500M.
My only conclusion is that Ratcliffe has some wealthy co investors behind him that we don’t know about otherwise his bid not even worth considering if we care about what’s best for MU. Buying this club is bad business if you can’t finance the majority of the take over with your own money.
I should have stated it was an impression, my bad, tone can be lost in text format.
INEOS revenues are 65bn, so you’re missing something here, as in, INEOS equity share of revenues generated by joint ventures.
The are also forecasting profits of 7.5 bn between 2021-2025, so yeah, they have the ability to buy the club.
And no, they won’t be paying 500 million a year in interest, but surely that goes without saying.
Likely they’d use a large chunk, possibly 50% of their 2bn cash reserves, and as the company forecasts 2bn profits for 2022, likely those 2bn would be used in the acquisition.
Those measures give INEOS 3bn of their own financing for the club, whilst still leaving 1bn in cash reserves.
Then they forecast 1.5-1.8 bn annual profits for 2023-2025, that puts them at around 5bn in profits for following 3 years post an eventual takeover.
If half of those profits were earmarked to use for staidum and infrastructure costs at United, they’d have an incredibly healthy balance of 2.25bn for those costs.
That’d still leave the group with 2.25 bn in profit for 2023-2025 and and 1bn in cash reserves.
INEOS likely will need some help financing the original purchase, somewhere around 1bn is my guess, but let’s say 1.5.
If they borrow 1.5bn and get a similar rate to amazons new loan, that’d cost them 67.5 million a year to service. A far cry from the ridiculous 500m 7even has been banging on about.
Even at 100m a year you’d barely notice it on the bottomline of a company making 2,000,000,000 in annual profit. It’d just say 1,900,000,000. Try wrapping your head around those sums of wealth
Safe to say, they can afford it, and that 7even is painting an absolutely ridiculous scenario here with zero basis in reality.
If they buy 70% of the club, removing the Glazers, loan 1.5bn against INEOS and spend up to 2.5bn on stadium/infrastructure over the following 5 years, whilst allowing the clubs money to take care of the transfer market, the entire fanbase would’ve jizzed in their collective pants just one year ago for a deal seemingly almost too good to be true.
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I'm baffled that this is coming from a man who is paid in part by Saudi money. I don't really follow his writing but that is one of the most hypocritical things I've seen in ages.
This is very mild compared to his constant blabbering about how Qatari acquisition of United would be English football's 'biggest' travesty. I don't want state ownership of football clubs, but the flood gates have been opened. It shouldn't be right for them and not right for us. If he wants to actually change something, instead of being a massive shill, he should start bashing the English government and FA for allowing this in the first place and maybe repeal and forbid it. Just how when the English government had the will, they could bin Abramovich as fast as he came.
Instead he is crying particularly about the United acquisition. Wtf do you want us to do about it when the league is already full of dirty money?
You’ve benefitted from voting Tory?!
Lot's of people have, it's ludicrous to think otherwise - I'm not one though, never voted for them in my life
You say it's mild, but you're claiming that he is against Qatar ownership of United because he doesn't want competition for Saudi Arabia's Newcastle even though he doesn't want Saudi Arabia to own Newcastle.
This is very simple. Either you're wrong, Saudi Arabia owning Newcastle isn't the reason why he is focusing of Qatar right now, or he has been lying for years, planting false flags just in case Qatar were to buy United some time in the future. Which is it?
This is so fecking stupid.
No (to benefitting or voting Tory)
At the present time surely the vast majority of low to middle class people have been shafted by them. Perhaps the super wealthy haven’t.
No (to benefitting or voting Tory)
Fair!
Anyone who took the opportunity to use right-to-buy has probably benefitted
He doesn't? And where specifically in the article he suggests that? At best he warns that Newcastle might turn like Chelsea in the future (meaning that geopolitical events might have effect on the wonership of the club), but I don't see Chelsea fans complaining. I mean, Abramovich came, made them what they are and then was promptly kicked out, the debt wiped and the new owner is spending huge money. I don't see them crying themselves to sleep about it.
With us he cries about morals and what a 'travesty' a state like Qatar would be to own us, but I didn't see him crying about morals in the article about Chelsea and Newcastle, instead the article was more focused about what I said previously. There's a bit of a difference.
"Instead you get Pep smiling about “uncomfortable situations”/people in tears of joy about Howe’s “coaching” after £80m spend only possible after a takeover that shouldn’t have been allowed "
I'll still celebrate it like any other.
Just like City and Chelsea have over the last few years. None of their fans seemed to be unhappy lifting the premier league and CL.
Isn't that just the compromised nature of modern football? It's all a sleaze pit. Maybe that's the spectacle now?
Yeah that is what they say in the "About Us" section in their website, but the reports (Annual, Quarterly or the Trading Statements) are segmented and don't provide the full picture of the 65bn revenues since they are a privately owned company, the forecasting you mentioned is only related to Quattro, so that is not the full picture.
Anyway my general point/doubt is that how far can SJR and INEOS can go in terms of borrowing against their businesses and what risk they will carry.
I'm still to find anyone that puts an asterisk next to Milan or Inter Milan titles. We even have a thread that included these clubs as proper clubs unlike oil clubs.
If your support for United hinges on what rival fans/majority of people think of the trophies United won then you've not had it easy out here. United isn't exactly beloved by the majority of people
It’s all guesswork now but their forecasted profits for 2022 and cash balance suggest that can provide 3bn or so, with the rest being made up of loans.
From what we have been told about their bid, the rest would be 1.5bn.
Now make no mistake, INEOS forecasts show they absolutely can take on that debt, plus the 18m /year servicing of the Glazer debt, without barely affecting their bottom line.
United, removed of debt can handle their own transfer budget and some, the club can likely match any other sides transfer business whilst still paying for it’s own new training ground (Leicester’s state of the art cost 100m, so double that for United).
INEOS profits also tell us that the company could after an acquisition, foot the bills for a new stadium or revamp over the coming years, without requiring extra loans to do so.
So there’s no question INEOS can “afford” it, but can they outbid the Qataris? The only important factor here? Very very doubtful. And the Glazers will simply sell to the highest bidder.
Good to have red lines. I’m resigned to the fact we’re going to get bought by a cnut, so may as well be whoever. Don’t think we have an angel waiting in the wings. Wish they’d sell the woman’s team off though. I’d bid for that.
would I prefer the glazers over Qatar? Hard one that. I’d prefer Qatar to ratcliffe though.
'Red line' is a bit of a murky term. Fandom isn't rational, at least not for me. I can, at least to a point, control my actions. So when things crosses a line I can stop watching, I can make sure I don't spend any money, I can stop engaging. But, I can't just flip a switch and stop caring, that's not an active decision that I am able to make. This is why I find the "oh, shit people own banks and Apple" so incredibly stupid. I don't have a personal relationship to a gadget or a shop, but I care about United.
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