Club Sale | It’s done!

[putzmcgee123]

This will get ugly if this comes to fruition

Nothing is ever simple with Jimmy boy. If anyone cares about my thoughts, I still have serious doubt regarding how this appeases everybody.

The Glazers are asking for a massive premium on the Class A share price and will not accept anything less. If a tender offer at a massive premium is only made to a small number of Class A shareholders, that sounds like it will be a mess to work through.

They could try to appease all Class A shareholders by scrapping the dual class structure altogether, but true voting rights will not be enough to satisfy anyone snubbed on the tender offer, and I could envision Joel and Avram having an issue with this because the other 4 siblings could conceivably decide to sell in the future and leave the two of them without leverage to block it while maintaining control of the club.

 

[Pexbo]

One would assume he will have it written into an agreement how the investment is spent surely?

So you’re suggesting that the Glazers would be putting their own money back into United? When have they ever done that?

 

[lifted]

I thought the B shares automatically turned to A shares when the Glazers sold them? Assuming they'd have to have some sort of board level vote to change that.

 

[Pexbo]

Reading between the lines, considering negotiations have been ongoing between all parties for weeks per the recent briefings, if Jim has called it a day on his bid for full control I’d suggest that means that Qatar have negotiated beyond his means so he’s changing tact with a final roll of the dice.

I think we will hear some positive news out of the Qatar camp in the next week or two.

 

[scorgasm]

Been waiting for an update from Mark Kleinman, in a league of his own for business news. I guess this will give Sir Jim a path to full ownership and that is presumably the end goal but this will make him very unpopular from the off and he will be seen as another Glazer or enabling the Glazers to continue. It will also mean more uncertainty for a few more years, with people waiting for Glazers to sell the rest of their shares - it's the worst case scenario for me.

 

[cyberman]

One would assume he will have it written into an agreement how the investment is spent surely?

Why? It doesn’t say he’s investing, he wants to buy a minority stake. It’s the Glazers money if this happens.
That’s where this falls down. They could sell for 6b to Qatar and take it all home or sell 25 percent to Jim and still have invest out of their own pocket.
If anybody wants Qatar then this is great news for them

 

[Woziak]

Ratcliffe just needs to feck off.

This would have been done had he not restructured his bided and agreed to keep the Glazers in the mix in sone kind of Frankenstein format.

Reality of a proposed summary of this hypothetical bid of £1.5bn, that’s for 25% of their 69% shares which they want £6 billion which would theoretically be more than what SJ has offered for 25%. In his 100% bid!

The Glazers own 113 million class B shares So INEOS would own 28.25 million of these class B shares and pay £1.5 billion, potentially having an agreement with the remaining Glazers that he would take full control by 2025/26 season and some of that money paid for this share allocation as existing class B status would mean that the Glazers have to settle a proportion of the debt say £200-250m so the six siblings potentially get £250m each now with the potential for much more in 2-3 years.

It also means that the other £1.3 billion that INEOS had lined up is available to buy out the major Class A Shares like Ariel investment, Lindsell Train, Senvest Management, Matathon Asset Management, Massachusetts Financial services. These Hedge funds own approximately 75% of the 50 million class A Shares,


Let’s assume this is 37 million shares and INEOS offer the same rumoured of $38 per share that SJ/92 Foundation were proposing that’s a total of $1.406 billion or £1.16 billion and this would prevent them from taking legal action against INEOS and the Goblins.


The remaining A class share holders would not be able to do anything and the club shares format and owner structure would now look like this;

The Glazers Class B Shares - 44%
INEOS - Class B Shares 25%
Public Minority Class A shares - 2 9%
The Glazers Class A Shares 5.6%
INEOS - Class A shares - 22.5%

This would not give Jimmy Brexit any authority or power, just a positional chip to pounce later on and a position on the board, he may even want the chairmen of the board title however, which might be part of the agreement, the Glazers could block any of his decisions if they wanted too but probably wouldn’t as they want the rest of their money in 2-3 years.

It’s either a desperate move by someone who knows they are losing or he’s been completely in bed with the Glazers and is rightly considers the 7th Glazer and has been all along!

Only time will tell ?

 

[Brownie85]

Reading between the lines, considering negotiations have been ongoing between all parties for weeks per the recent briefings, if Jim has called it a day on his bid for full control I’d suggest that means that Qatar have negotiated beyond his means so he’s changing tact with a final roll of the dice.

I think we will hear some positive news out of the Qatar camp in the next week or two.

I'd say thats a possibility, as if this was something that Jim and the Glazers had agreed on, surely it would be pointless for SJ to remain in the running as the Glazers mind would have been made up and SJ would have come out with something of his own to say he was withdrawing, pinning the withdrawal on the Glazers not wanting to truly sell.

 

[cyberman]

Been waiting for an update from Mark Kleinman, in a league of his own for business news. I guess this will give Sir Jim a path to full ownership and that is presumably the end goal but this will make him very unpopular from the off and he will be seen as another Glazer or enabling the Glazers to continue. It will also mean more uncertainty for a few more years, with people waiting for Glazers to sell the rest of their shares - it's the worst case scenario for me.

This doesn’t give Jim an advantage at all for full control.

 

[Amarsdd]

Reading between the lines, considering negotiations have been ongoing between all parties for weeks per the recent briefings, if Jim has called it a day on his bid for full control I’d suggest that means that Qatar have negotiated beyond his means so he’s changing tact with a final roll of the dice.

I think we will hear some positive news out of the Qatar camp in the next week or two.

or it just confirms the reports that Glazers have increased their valuation of the club (was it from ~6B pounds to now 7B+ pounds)

 

[Mickeza]

I thought the B shares automatically turned to A shares when the Glazers sold them? Assuming they'd have to have some sort of board level vote to change that.

The board is the Glazers…if they want to change it I like their chances of it passing.

 

[Brophs]

Ratcliffe is going to give the Glazers enough money to merrily run the club into the ground for another decade or two and still buy a bunch of strollers to wheel their dogs around.

 

[putzmcgee123]

Reading between the lines, considering negotiations have been ongoing between all parties for weeks per the recent briefings, if Jim has called it a day on his bid for full control I’d suggest that means that Qatar have negotiated beyond his means so he’s changing tact with a final roll of the dice.

I think we will hear some positive news out of the Qatar camp in the next week or two.

I pray that this is correct. I honestly would even accept INEOS or INEOS + private equity. Any scenario that leaves the Glazers in control still is unacceptable.

 

[Pexbo]

or it just confirms the reports that Glazers have increased their valuation of the club (was it from ~6B pounds to now 7B+ pounds)

Which isn’t exactly different from what I have said? Obviously remains to be seen if Qatar pony up the full amount but regardless it means INEOS are out of the auction and there is one bidder left negotiating for full control which gives the glazers less leverage.

 

[Garethw]

One would assume he will have it written into an agreement how the investment is spent surely?

Zero chance that the money generated goes Into the club. They haven’t invested a single penny of their own money in nearly 20 years and now suddenly they are going to invest >billion? No chance.

That money goes straight into the Glazers pocket.

 

[scorgasm]

This doesn’t give Jim an advantage at all for full control.

Kleinman has reported the Ineos offer includes put and call arrangements to acquire the remainder of the club's shares.

 

[Woziak]

And if they do take 25% minority “investment” and decide to pocket it, good luck explaining to the shareholders that their final strategic decision was to sell their own stock and invest none of the proceeds back into the club.

They will have to be a caveat that some of that money must be invested or the club cloud be sanctioned in the summer of 2024 for FFP fines for already getting a fine this year since no money has been inested by the owners over the last 3 years. They would and could invest £30m which is the allowed sim each year for years. There is also the subject of historical debt which must be looked at before summer 2025, either paid off or rescheduled?

 

[Roboc7]

Does the report say it's something they're considering and not actually decided on whether it's going to happen at the moment?

They know they can't afford a full takeover so they're restructuring to something they feel might be acceptable. Whats saying that they plough all this money to the Glazers now, then in 3 years they can't afford to buy out the rest and remain as minority holders? What would be the point? It's just a bit of a mess at the moment

It could be they can’t afford to buy the A and B shares now or it could be what the Glazers have said is their preferred option or a combination of both. They’ve been in discussions for some time so it’s reasonable to assume that any amended bid is a reflection of those discussions.

INEOS have always wanted control I don’t see why they would accept anything less than that, maybe it won’t be immediate control but find it very hard to believe they’d be bidding without a guarantee of control or an exclusive option etc.

 

[Brownie85]

This would have been done had he not restructured his bided and agreed to keep the Glazers in the mix in sone kind of Frankenstein format.

Reality of a proposed summary of this hypothetical bid of £1.5bn, that’s for 25% of their 69% shares which they want £6 billion which would theoretically be more than what SJ has offered for 25%. In his 100% bid!

The Glazers own 113 million class B shares So INEOS would own 28.25 million of these class B shares and pay £1.5 billion, potentially having an agreement with the remaining Glazers that he would take full control by 2025/26 season and some of that money paid for this share allocation as existing class B status would mean that the Glazers have to settle a proportion of the debt say £200-250m so the six siblings potentially get £250m each now with the potential for much more in 2-3 years.

It also means that the other £1.3 billion that INEOS had lined up is available to buy out the major Class A Shares like Ariel investment, Lindsell Train, Senvest Management, Matathon Asset Management, Massachusetts Financial services. These Hedge funds own approximately 75% of the 50 million class A Shares,


Let’s assume this is 37 million shares and INEOS offer the same rumoured of $38 per share that SJ/92 Foundation were proposing that’s a total of $1.406 billion or £1.16 billion and this would prevent them from taking legal action against INEOS and the Goblins.


The remaining A class share holders would not be able to do anything and the club shares format and owner structure would now look like this;

The Glazers Class B Shares - 44%
INEOS - Class B Shares 25%
Public Minority Class A shares - 2 9%
The Glazers Class A Shares 5.6%
INEOS - Class A shares - 22.5%

This would not give Jimmy Brexit any authority or power, just a positional chip to pounce later on and a position on the board, he may even want the chairmen of the board title however, which might be part of the agreement, the Glazers could block any of his decisions if they wanted too but probably wouldn’t as they want the rest of their money in 2-3 years.

It’s either a desperate move by someone who knows they are losing or he’s been completely in bed with the Glazers and is rightly considers the 7th Glazer and has been all along!

Only time will tell ?

The one thing i don't understand is that if the Glazers accept this now, couldn't they just value the club at whatever they wanted when the time for a full buyout occurs?

Couldn't they basically just turn round to Jim and INEOS and say "We value the rest of our shares at £8bn and we won't accept a penny less" meaning that a full takeover would never actually occur because INEOS wouldn't ever meet that value? Again i'm not sure how all this works, but it does sound like this a bit of a feckup

 

[cyberman]

Doesn’t Jim fall back into the minority investor pack with this deal? Wasn’t there 6/7 other interested parties that the Glazers discarded?
It’s not even minority investment as Liverpool negotiated, it’s literally buy a minority stake. It sounds like a shit deal when they can get the same price from an investment firm and they actually pump money in as well

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

If he's buying their shares and some of the Class A shares, i'm pretty sure, with them still being in control they can do whatever they want with the money, can they not?

No idea, but he's clearly not an idiot, so I can't think of one reason he would agree to this.

 

[dpansheth]

Reading between the lines, considering negotiations have been ongoing between all parties for weeks per the recent briefings, if Jim has called it a day on his bid for full control I’d suggest that means that Qatar have negotiated beyond his means so he’s changing tact with a final roll of the dice.

I think we will hear some positive news out of the Qatar camp in the next week or two.

Tumhare munh mei ghee shakkar (if you understand this)

 

[Pexbo]

They will have to be a caveat that some of that money must be invested or the club cloud be sanctioned in the summer of 2024 for FFP fines for already getting a fine this year since no money has been inested by the owners over the last 3 years. They would and could invest £30m which is the allowed sim each year for years. There is also the subject of historical debt which must be looked at before summer 2025, either paid off or rescheduled?

Wow £30m is going to stack value into the club. Forget the £1.5bn required on the stadium and training ground.

 

[cyberman]

It could be they can’t afford to buy the A and B shares now or it could be what the Glazers have said is their preferred option or a combination of both. They’ve been in discussions for some time so it’s reasonable to assume that any amended bid is a reflection of those discussions.

INEOS have always wanted control I don’t see why they would accept anything less than that, maybe it won’t be immediate control but find it very hard to believe they’d be bidding without a guarantee of control or an exclusive option etc.

Believe it. It’s still basically a sell that fecks over A class share holders. Qatar could simply outbid them in 2026 and it’s the exact same situation as it is now. There is no plan that has Jim buy the club that doesn’t have the exact same problems he has now. He just has to outbid Qatar and that’s impossible

 

[strandty]

This would have been done had he not restructured his bided and agreed to keep the Glazers in the mix in sone kind of Frankenstein format.

Reality of a proposed summary of this hypothetical bid of £1.5bn, that’s for 25% of their 69% shares which they want £6 billion which would theoretically be more than what SJ has offered for 25%. In his 100% bid!

The Glazers own 113 million class B shares So INEOS would own 28.25 million of these class B shares and pay £1.5 billion, potentially having an agreement with the remaining Glazers that he would take full control by 2025/26 season and some of that money paid for this share allocation as existing class B status would mean that the Glazers have to settle a proportion of the debt say £200-250m so the six siblings potentially get £250m each now with the potential for much more in 2-3 years.

It also means that the other £1.3 billion that INEOS had lined up is available to buy out the major Class A Shares like Ariel investment, Lindsell Train, Senvest Management, Matathon Asset Management, Massachusetts Financial services. These Hedge funds own approximately 75% of the 50 million class A Shares,


Let’s assume this is 37 million shares and INEOS offer the same rumoured of $38 per share that SJ/92 Foundation were proposing that’s a total of $1.406 billion or £1.16 billion and this would prevent them from taking legal action against INEOS and the Goblins.


The remaining A class share holders would not be able to do anything and the club shares format and owner structure would now look like this;

The Glazers Class B Shares - 44%
INEOS - Class B Shares 25%
Public Minority Class A shares - 2 9%
The Glazers Class A Shares 5.6%
INEOS - Class A shares - 22.5%

This would not give Jimmy Brexit any authority or power, just a positional chip to pounce later on and a position on the board, he may even want the chairmen of the board title however, which might be part of the agreement, the Glazers could block any of his decisions if they wanted too but probably wouldn’t as they want the rest of their money in 2-3 years.

It’s either a desperate move by someone who knows they are losing or he’s been completely in bed with the Glazers and is rightly considers the 7th Glazer and has been all along!

Only time will tell ?

You’re forgetting that under the current Club rules, any B class shares that are transferred out of the family are converted to A class.

 

[bstb3]

The one thing i don't understand is that if the Glazers accept this now, couldn't they just value the club at whatever they wanted when the time for a full buyout occurs?

Couldn't they basically just turn round to Jim and INEOS and say "We value the rest of our shares at £8bn and we won't accept a penny less" meaning that a full takeover would never actually occur because INEOS wouldn't ever meet that value? Again i'm not sure how all this works, but it does sound like this a bit of a feckup

There would have to be some form of agreement about what taking control means, some form of put and call options setting a range of prices, written in to prevent that. If it was 25% without guarantee then the Glazers would hold all the cards in the future negotiations. INEOS would be insane to do that (if the aim was full control in the future and not just getting their name in lights / on the board).

 

[Cantona in disguise]

So you’re suggesting that the Glazers would be putting their own money back into United? When have they ever done that?

I'm just trying to look at it from Jim's point of view. But to be honest I was thinking more along the lines of an investment of money rather than a view to buying the whole club. So fair point on that. Not a chance they throw their own money back into the club.

 

[Rojofiam]

It’s not a great outcome at all! It’s a minimum of three more years of Glazer shit.

I'd take the Glazers staying forever and the club going bankrupt than state ownership and blood money.

 

[Woziak]

Kleinman has reported the Ineos offer includes put and call arrangements to acquire the remainder of the club's shares.

Exactly as I thought this is bigger evil of his initial bid and shows Ratcliffe desperation to get his feet under the table at any cost !

 

[Brownie85]

The more i think about it, and the fact the report says Jim is considering restructuring this way, it seems to me like he knows he's got no realistic chance of buying the club so this is his idea to get the Glazers on his side as it's looking like Qatar is leading the way.

As i say if this was something that the Glazers and Jim have agreed on, then why would Qatar even stick around? They'd be out of here on their own terms rather than have it public knowledge that the Glazers chose Jimmy over them, surely?

 

[Amarsdd]

Which isn’t exactly different from what I have said? Obviously remains to be seen if Qatar pony up the full amount but regardless it means INEOS are out of the auction and there is one bidder left negotiating for full control which gives the glazers less leverage.

Yeah thats the point I'm making as well. I don't see Qatar ponying up additional 1B+ to their current bid any time soon. And I don't think INEOS are out of the auction, could just be taking a longer route to majority control due to that increase in valuation. They are not an investment firm or some investement fund so I don't see the point of INEOS taking minority stake without a plan to take majority control over time.

 

[Garethw]

I'd take the Glazers staying forever and the club going bankrupt than state ownership and blood money.

So you would rather see Manchester United not exist? Give your head a wobble mate.

 

[cyberman]

Kleinman has reported the Ineos offer includes put and call arrangements to acquire the remainder of the club's shares.

No it doesn’t. He’s just starting what was in his bid from many months ago.



Another uncertainty would centre on whether a minority deal, if agreed and implemented, would give Ineos Sports an eventual path to full control of Manchester United.



It simply reads as minority shares. He even questions if Jim would even invest in the club



Another would be whether an offer to bring Sir Jim in as a major shareholder would raise any new capital to invest in the club, which is working towards a major renovation of Old Trafford.

This is Jim backing out. All of a sudden his bid falls below minority investment bidders as well.

 

[RedDevilUnited369]

If the Glazers have upped the price to £7b, how much are they going to want in 2026 for the remaining shares?

It’s not making sense. Jimmy said he wouldn’t pay “stupid money” but “yesterdays price is not todays price” so I’d assume the price will go up the longer he waits to acquire the rest of the shares.

Also, imagine selling shares in your club and then the buyer tells you what to do with the money? That’s not happening. Glazers won’t put any money into the club. What’s the point of selling if they have to invest. May as well refinance the existing debt and keep full control.

 

[Rightnr]

Jim just bringing the positive vibes with his offer.

Qatar better get us or it's going to be some depressing viewing for the next few years.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

So you’re suggesting that the Glazers would be putting their own money back into United? When have they ever done that?

This was always the arguement as to why a minority stake wouldn't work, as they'd have to put the money back into the club, and then wait for the clubs value to go up enough to make selling this percentage worthwhile, rather than just accepting the bid now.

Like other investors of this type, Sir Jim is not letting them keep the money for themselves with a minority stake, and minority say.

 

[Woziak]

I'm just trying to look at it from Jim's point of view. But to be honest I was thinking more along the lines of an investment of money rather than a view to buying the whole club. So fair point on that. Not a chance they throw their own money back into the club.

Oh no, he still wants to buy the club but it would take him 2-3 years to acquire full control in an even more complexed Put and. Call plus a tender offer.

If Ratcliffe succeeds, he’s DOA even if he takes control as 74/75 year old man in 3 years time. I can genuinely see the fans going crazy if this happens ?

 

[jadaba]

Regarding whether the Glazers would reinvest that money into the club: I know they haven't put a penny in prior to this, but couldn't they invest that money back into the club with the certain knowledge that they'd recoup that amount in 2-3 years when they sell completely and for a higher sum? Regardless of pitch performance for the next couple of years, the club's value will likely still go up. If they're eyeing a $10bn valuation in 2026, wouldn't it make sense for them to invest the money in the club and get a big return on it a couple years down the line?

 

[Woodzy]

What can this strange device be? When I touch it, it gives forth a sound…

 

[Woziak]

This was always the arguement as to why a minority stake wouldn't work, as they'd have to put the money back into the club, and then wait for the clubs value to go up enough to make selling this percentage worthwhile, rather than just accepting the bid now.

Like other investors of this type, Sir Jim is not letting them keep the money for themselves with a minority stake, and minority say.

SJ bid is still better overall but he will need to go near to £6bn now to seal the deal ?