Club Sale | It’s done!

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Marcelinho87 said:
Oh I know I never said investment... It's an asset meaning INEOS will get further tax relief due to the debt acquired.

I don't think SJR wants to make any money from United I think he sees it as a late life flurry on something he enjoys.
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He probably feels some guilt for all the pollution his company have done and wants to give something back now he is older. Who knows, definitely not in it to make a return though (aka Glazers).
 
Marcelinho87 said:
Oh I know I never said investment... It's an asset meaning INEOS will get further tax relief due to the debt acquired.

I don't think SJR wants to make any money from United I think he sees it as a late life flurry on something he enjoys.
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Fair enough. I agree too. I think Jim is in this like Abramovich was. Just for the fun. He literally wants for nothing and is in his 70's.

The Qatari bid is definitely to benefit Qatar. I have absolutely zero doubts about that. However just like with City's takeover it can benefit both the club and the state. I just don't like what comes with it.
 
Ineos run with considerable debt. It's not a criticism. But this belief somehow he'll all eliminate our debt to load it onto the parent company and we won't be liable to contribute as much as or indeed far more than we do the Glazer debt burden because we assume we're special, is something I've never understood.

Ineos has partners, customers, investors, and responsibilities as a standalone company with commitments, obligations and presence the world over. Their funds are NOT going to be used to buy us a new stadium and spend £200m on players every year.
 
stw2022 said:
Ineos run with considerable debt. It's not a criticism. But this belief somehow he'll all eliminate our debt to load it onto the parent company and we won't be liable to contribute as much of indeed far more than we do the Glazer debt burden because we assume we're special, is something I've never understood.

Ineos has partners, customers, investors, and responsibilities as a standalone company with commitments, obligations and presence the world over. Their funds are NOT going to be used to buy us a new stadium and spend £200m on players every year.
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He won't want to spend Billions on something and see it fail though either. If the debt became too much of a burden on the club then he could easily clear it.

The debt hasn't actually stopped us spending big money either has it? We spend shed loads every summer.
 
One thing that just doesn’t add up….

Qataris are not stupid, they know glazers don’t care about what new owners will invest in the club post sell out and stil we keep hearing about their offer to glazers plus-pledged investment …

They know glazers don’t give a feck so why bother? Or fact is no one actually has a clue on actual numbers..
 
the_cliff said:
I agree.

Some people unfortunately don't know how much 6bn actually is.

Saudi for example have barely invested 500 mill on players, their total investment in Newcastle is most likely less than a billion and they had Newcastle finish 1 point behind us this year, imagine what you can do with 6.
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4 points actually but I get your point
 
TheGodsInRed said:
He probably feels some guilt for all the pollution his company have done and wants to give something back now he is older. Who knows, definitely not in it to make a return though (aka Glazers).
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I'm not sure that buying a football club is the way to make up for that. I think football at the highest level has a pretty big carbon footprint.
 
Gurtej said:
One thing that just doesn’t add up….

Qataris are not stupid, they know glazers don’t care about what new owners will invest in the club post sell out and stil we keep hearing about their offer to glazers plus-pledged investment …

They know glazers don’t give a feck so why bother? Or fact is no one actually has a clue on actual numbers..
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This is why a lot of people are very concerned about the Qatar bid. As you say the Glazers don't care that you want to change the carpets and curtains for want of a better expression after the sale had gone through so why even bother saying it.
 
Marcelinho87 said:
Oh I know I never said investment... It's an asset meaning INEOS will get further tax relief due to the debt acquired.

I don't think SJR wants to make any money from United I think he sees it as a late life flurry on something he enjoys.
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I tend to agree with this statement as he is paying well over the odds !
 
Big Ben Foster said:
Sensible, but how do they define "fair value"? Obviously the £300m per season example wouldn't fly, but it feels like there's still a little room for some creative accounting.
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A bit of wriggle room, yes. From the regs:

Fair value means the price that would have been received to sell an asset or paid to transfer a liability in an orderly transaction between market participants or between willing parties in an arm’s length transaction at the transaction date.

In situations where the declared fair value of a transaction is assessed by the UEFA Club Financial Control Body (CFCB) , an independent third-party assessor will perform a fair value assessment conform to standard market practices and assign a fair value to the transaction. The club may choose an independent third-party assessor which has been approved by UEFA. The assessment of commercial transactions must be based on the procedure approved by the CFCB.

https://editorial.uefa.com/resource...ancial_sustainability_regulations_2022-en.pdf
 
Infra-red said:
Yes. However, for the purposes of the FSR (FFP) calculation of football earnings, only the "fair value" of the sponsorship is relevant to the calculation (i.e. Ineos can sponsor United, but that sponsorship deal will need to be of a magnitude that would be deemed fair value - they can't sponsor us £300m per season for having their name on the shirt).
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Thanks!

Do we know how much they provide Nice / season?
 
stw2022 said:
They'll aquire us through heavy borrowing that I think it's naive to claim we would not be at least contributing a significant amount of our own revenue towards.

Companies buy other companies all the time using borrowed money. Nothing unusual or wrong in that. But it's pretty much what the Glazers did and there's a bizarre irony that pretty much the same financial ownership structure is now being sold as a saviour
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Not at all, the Glazers did it with full intention of never paying a penny... INEOS buy business left and right as do many other millions of firms as you say but they manage it a damn sight better than the Glazers do.
 
Nou_Camp99 said:
This is why a lot of people are very concerned about the Qatar bid. As you say the Glazers don't care that you want to change the carpets and curtains for want of a better expression after the sale had gone through so why even bother saying it.
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Yeah it’s one of the reasons I’m getting red flags about the Qatar bid. At the end of the day I don’t give a feck who own us as long as the Glazers are no longer in control, but the way Jassim has gone about the bidding process is giving me pause. There’s a lot of great PR to curry favour with us fans, but when it comes down to the actual bid it doesn’t seem he’s putting his money where his mouth is.
 
Nou_Camp99 said:
This is why a lot of people are very concerned about the Qatar bid. As you say the Glazers don't care that you want to change the carpets and curtains for want of a better expression after the sale had gone through so why even bother saying it.
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Probably to put the fans mind at ease and start off on a positive footing. Sir Jim has built a lot of animosity towards his bid for the fact he hasn’t promised any of this.
 
TheGodsInRed said:
He probably feels some guilt for all the pollution his company have done and wants to give something back now he is older. Who knows, definitely not in it to make a return though (aka Glazers).
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I’ll take some of whatever you’re drinking.
 
Woodzy said:
I feel they are just baiting as much as possible out of Qatar here.

There's absolutely no reason for this process to be so drawn out if Jim is such a clear favourite.
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This makes sense, so many people are complaining about Sheikh Jassim's bid and praising Ratcliffe as he's made a better offer giving the Glazers what they want by 2 of them keeping their shares, so why haven't they accepted it then? They're just dragging it on to get more money
 
Nou_Camp99 said:
He won't want to spend Billions on something and see it fail though either. If the debt became too much of a burden on the club then he could easily clear it.

The debt hasn't actually stopped us spending big money either has it? We spend shed loads every summer.
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How could he easily clear it? Many years Ineos doesn't make a profit itself after it pays its obligation.

And sure debt has never been an issue. Of course. But our current owners have incurred debts that would be dwarfed by what would be incurred after the this takeover and absolutely nothing has been said about what United's liability would be.

Believing one of the most ruthless and successful businessesmen in the country is buying the club out of the goodness of his heart or its a 'legacy project' or because he's suddenly got an attack of the Bransons, I think it's very naive. He's buying an asset the people he's buying from (apparently) think will see its value sky rocket in the coming years.

Ratcliffe sees this as an investment as much as any of his other investments. This whole 'he's just a top bloke doing a good bit of work, trying to give back, looking for a legacy project' spin, I don't believe for a second.
 
I only have two posts left for the day, but I am seeing (once again) a false equivalence with a comparison to the Chelsea sale.

Comparing a 69% stake in Man Utd to a 100% stake in Chelsea is just wrong. Controlling interest and voting rights are irrelevant to the enterprise value. The Glazers chose to list those shares in the public offering years ago and have since converted and sold some more. They can't turn around now and say, "well actually, we still have total control, so it doesn't matter that we sold some equity in the club. Value our 69% as the full 100%." All that before even touching upon Chelsea's financial situation at the time compared to United's right now.

I have also still yet to see anything suggesting Jimmy Rat's valuation is at or near £6B. All major journos stated between £5-5.5B.

The bottom line is this: the Qataris want the full 100%. The club is saddled with debt and in dire need of infrastructure investment. Taking the full 100% appears to be non negotiable for the Qataris, whether to eliminate the regulatory requirements of the NYSE listing, for the prestige, or due to an increase in value they believe their investing into the club will yield. The Glazers already reaped the benefits of the public offering and are not going to get a multiple of what Roman got for 100% of Chelsea's equity.

I would not be surprised if quite a few people end up with egg on their faces once an announcement is made.
 
Blackbeard said:
Probably to put the fans mind at ease and start off on a positive footing. Sir Jim has built a lot of animosity towards his bid for the fact he hasn’t promised any of this.
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Maybe so but he won't be putting anyone's mind at ease being second place either will he? It will have all been for nothing.

We haven't heard Jim's plan either tbf. People have just assumed the worse and gone with that as it fits with their agenda.
 
Marcelinho87 said:
Are you saying that SJR is buying Manchester United to fill his pockets? The man that owns a petrochemical company that absolutely dwarfs Manchester United in revenue, profits, the works... A club which is currently running on empty is going to make SJR a profit off its name?

I doubt, very much.
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You know what's good for business? Advertising that only a brand the size of Manchester United can provide.
 
Nou_Camp99 said:
Maybe so but he won't be putting anyone's mind at ease being second place either will he? It will have all been for nothing.

We haven't heard Jim's plan either tbf. People have just assumed the worse and gone with that as it fits with their agenda.
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He must be aware of the unrest among a sizeable chunk of the fan base. He is either very bad at pr by not coming out with plans for the stadium, facilities and debt or it’s not going to be good news.
 
Gurtej said:
One thing that just doesn’t add up….

Qataris are not stupid, they know glazers don’t care about what new owners will invest in the club post sell out and stil we keep hearing about their offer to glazers plus-pledged investment …

They know glazers don’t give a feck so why bother? Or fact is no one actually has a clue on actual numbers..
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Two purposes, in my opinion.

  1. To start off in good favour with the supporters and the public. Some people heavily discount the importance of public relations, but it matters a lot to anyone operating in a public-facing business. This is the primary reason by far.
  2. An signal to the Glazers that they are not going to blow the bank just to take their equity when they need tons of money for investment (due to the sorry state the Glazers have left our infrastructure in).
 
I'd be more comfortable with the Ratcliffe bid if there was some more detail and honesty about the reality. What will the borrowing be, what will our contribution to that be, how will it affect our budget, what plans are in place to grow our earning to achieve the repayments needed

This whole "Guys, trust me, I'm a fan just like you. I'm not looking to make money You can trust me" spin that some fans evidently are buying into, is something I'm not comfortable with as I don't believe any of it is true.
 
Blackbeard said:
He must be aware of the unrest among a sizeable chunk of the fan base. He is either very bad at pr by not coming out with plans for the stadium, facilities and debt or it’s not going to be good news.
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Maybe.....

Or he could be focusing on winning the bid and could blow us all away with his plans after being declared the winner.

We just don't know, do we?

I really don't think Sir Jim is a) a fool and b) in this for the money. You don't become Britain's richest man by accident. You also know that buying Utd at above market rate isnt a wise investment decision.
 
Nou_Camp99 said:
This is why a lot of people are very concerned about the Qatar bid. As you say the Glazers don't care that you want to change the carpets and curtains for want of a better expression after the sale had gone through so why even bother saying it.
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I guess it's all a way of ameliorating the process from their side, and softening the idea of ownership to the media, fanbase even political lobbies, as, and I'm under no illusion, the exercise for the Qataris where our club is concerned is now ,and has always been, one which exploits the brand as a grandiose platform for state sponsored PR.
 
stw2022 said:
Ineos run with considerable debt. It's not a criticism. But this belief somehow he'll all eliminate our debt to load it onto the parent company and we won't be liable to contribute as much as or indeed far more than we do the Glazer debt burden because we assume we're special, is something I've never understood.

Ineos has partners, customers, investors, and responsibilities as a standalone company with commitments, obligations and presence the world over. Their funds are NOT going to be used to buy us a new stadium and spend £200m on players every year.
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They’ll be debt in some form but there will be plenty of investment as well I’m sure. The club has been run down to such an extent that it can’t be self sufficient, it needs lots of money pumped in and INEOS will know that.

The Qatari bid is just pie in the sky and more PR than substance. The real issue with both bids is whether they’ll be competent owners, based on the bidding process the Qatari’s don’t fill you with slightest confidence and INEOS record in football isn’t the best either.
 
TheGodsInRed said:
He probably feels some guilt for all the pollution his company have done and wants to give something back now he is older. Who knows, definitely not in it to make a return though (aka Glazers).
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Yes this makes perfect sense. Feck charity, lets make sure football fans are happy to compensate for killing turtles
 
Rhyme Animal said:
And has instead actively found a way to keep the Glazers at Utd.

Just as his Brexit contributions - he’s a cretin.
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We don't know the full details of that part though do we? And what has been said is that they'd remain only for a while not forever.

Not sure why people keep bringing up Brexit either. I'm a remainer myself so don't agree with Jim on Brexit. But Qatar stand for far worse things than Brexit which is the most laughable part of all this. Qatari policy makes Brexit seem like a trip to Disneyland I'm sure so this is not a wise avenue to go down at all.
 
Apart from all the human rights abuses which make me want anyone other than Qatar I have to say the way they have gone about this has been so embarrassing.

Five offers none of which meet the asking price or match the other bidder, nothing to prove they even have the money they claim or that Shiekh Jassim even exists or is anyway serious about this if he does.

It's been pathetic from the start from them
 
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