Club ownership | Senior management team talk

There is no path out of this mess for us. Thankfully it’s the same for the Glazers and Jim.
 
There is a path and on paper it's the most straightforward of them all, be competitive. The main reason we are in this situation is that the club has grossly underperformed when you consider expenditure vs competitiveness which means that for nearly a decade the club has left anywhere between 500m€ and 1bn€ on the table in prize money and broadcasting revenues. A club like United can't afford to not be a perennial CL quarterfinalist and we haven't been that for way too long.

The question is how do we go back to that level? What strategy are we going to follow? One thing is sure, we can't afford to not spend.
 
It's quite clear that sir jim has no real interest on on field performance, apart from not being relegated. The prize is the regeneration project with state funding and outside investment on the back of it.
 
UpWithRivers said:
Exactly. And the Glazers wont sell. He knew this and he knew the status if the club when he bought into it. But all its done is fkd us even more because we have 2 owners that cant or wont act. So they reverted to plan b - cost cutting. Or should I say plan A because he knew that was the only way this could work with a shared ownership. I said it when he bought the club that the Glazers played a blinder. Imagine if they sacked Sir Alex and put ticket prices up and sold Garnacho etc. There would have been a riot. So they sold minority stake to INEOS and happy days
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By the looks of things Glazers, the other four siblings more accurately, do want to sell. Sir Jim had a deal with the Glazers where Joel and Avram would stay and he'd get majority shareholding and the minority shareholders threatened to sue and thats how they came up with this arrangement. I am certain that's still the intention but he'll do it in a phased approach to avoid noise on the NYSE.

There is a reason why the Glazers gave him a period to buy them out or they look for other buyers and force him to sell along with them. It's there in their agreement. Can't see why they would put it, with a deadline, if they, or some of them, don't want out.
JPRouve said:
There is a path and on paper it's the most straightforward of them all, be competitive. The main reason we are in this situation is that the club has grossly underperformed when you consider expenditure vs competitiveness which means that for nearly a decade the club has left anywhere between 500m€ and 1bn€ on the table in prize money and broadcasting revenues. A club like United can't afford to not be a perennial CL quarterfinalist and we haven't been that for way too long.

The question is how do we go back to that level? What strategy are we going to follow? One thing is sure, we can't afford to not spend.
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Yeah this is the only way. Do a an operational review around recruitment because we have been shit at this, bring the best people in and spend so that you get back in the CL. There is too much noise and hype around United to downscale and operate as a mid table side.
 
Pickle85 said:
How is this worse than the Glazers? And as for 'cant and won't act', the entire management structure of the club's footballing side has been torn up and put back together and we have a new manager. Christ some of you lot are drama queens.

Have a little patience. Yes, it's not been great so far but there's hardly been any time for an impact to be seen.
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Putting in a new management structure and a new manager is nothing. Well not nothing but its football 101 that all the other clubs have done. Its not exactly revolutionary. What United need is a massive cash injection and clever strategies. Look at Chelsea. 9 year contracts. Selling hotels. Yes we all laughed at them but they are thinking out of the box not just saying we got a new manager and CEO so lets all clap. But sure lets see what happens. Maybe cost cutting and penny pinching will right the ship but i have ever seen any other big club take this strategy. Name one. Do you see Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Real Madrid putting it out everywhere that they are broke and need to cancel Christmas? Its excuses after excuses with United and Im fking sick of it. We are 13th and according to the manager the worst united team in history. Time for excuses is over. Do better
 
Superden said:
It's quite clear that sir jim has no real interest on on field performance, apart from not being relegated. The prize is the regeneration project with state funding and outside investment on the back of it.
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Why would he not care about on field performance? Makes zero sense
 
JPRouve said:
There is a path and on paper it's the most straightforward of them all, be competitive. The main reason we are in this situation is that the club has grossly underperformed when you consider expenditure vs competitiveness which means that for nearly a decade the club has left anywhere between 500m€ and 1bn€ on the table in prize money and broadcasting revenues. A club like United can't afford to not be a perennial CL quarterfinalist and we haven't been that for way too long.

The question is how do we go back to that level? What strategy are we going to follow? One thing is sure, we can't afford to not spend.
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Completely agree with you, however in our financial situation I worry where is the money coming from
 
UpWithRivers said:
Putting in a new management structure and a new manager is nothing. Well not nothing but its football 101 that all the other clubs have done. Its not exactly revolutionary. What United need is a massive cash injection and clever strategies. Look at Chelsea. 9 year contracts. Selling hotels. Yes we all laughed at them but they are thinking out of the box not just saying we got a new manager and CEO so lets all clap. But sure lets see what happens. Maybe cost cutting and penny pinching will right the ship but i have ever seen any other big club take this strategy. Name one. Do you see Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Real Madrid putting it out everywhere that they are broke and need to cancel Christmas? Its excuses after excuses with United and Im fking sick of it. We are 13th and according to the manager the worst united team in history. Time for excuses is over. Do better
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It takes a while. It's not going to happen overnight. Also, using Chelsea as an example of success is bizarre at best. What have they won so far using this strategy?

Minimizing how big a change entirely revamping the management structure actually is, is bizarre. It's an enormous change in terms of how the club is run, so dismissing it is silly, to be frank.

Keep the drama up if it helps you cope though.
 
croadyman said:
Completely agree with you, however in our financial situation I worry where is the money coming from
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The same place we left it, prize and broadcasting revenue. Now I guess the better question is how do we become competitive again and capture those funds? The obvious answers are better coaching and better playing staff, the second one is where lack of available income is an issue, we spent poorly which means that we didn't improve our competitiveness and the only way to mitigate that is by selling all valuable players and try to replace them with players that are cheaper but roughly around the same level. And avoid middling players for bordeline high fees, like Ugarte, Zirkzee or De Ligt. You go for cheap project or expensive established players but limit the inbetween because those are difficult to sell. And no expensive projects.
 
Pickle85 said:
It takes a while. It's not going to happen overnight. Also, using Chelsea as an example of success is bizarre at best. What have they won so far using this strategy?

Minimizing how big a change entirely revamping the management structure actually is, is bizarre. It's an enormous change in terms of how the club is run, so dismissing it is silly, to be frank.

Keep the drama up if it helps you cope though.
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There's been a management change sure, but all we hear about is Jimbo did this, Jimbo did that, Jimbo wants this or that. It almost appears as if Jimbo is the one making all the decisions and the other management is superfluous.
 
JPRouve said:
The same place we left it, prize and broadcasting revenue. Now I guess the better question is how do we become competitive again and capture those funds? The obvious answers are better coaching and better playing staff, the second one is where lack of available income is an issue, we spent poorly which means that we didn't improve our competitiveness and the only way to mitigate that is by selling all valuable players and try to replace them with players that are cheaper but roughly around the same level. And avoid middling players for bordeline high fees, like Ugarte, Zirkzee or De Ligt. You go for cheap project or expensive established players but limit the inbetween because those are difficult to sell. And no expensive projects.
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I wouldn't class Ugarte or De Ligt as bad purchases but then I'm a fan of both so will admit that I'm definitely a bit biased on this.
 
croadyman said:
I wouldn't class Ugarte or De Ligt as bad purchases but then I'm a fan of both so will admit I'm a bit biased.
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Neither of these players move the needle, it's debatable if they are long term pieces but they cost a combined 95m. In isolation they are not terrible moves but when you keep making that type of moves, you go nowhere from a Football standpoint while your finances suffer. You do that 10 times and you accumulated 500m worth of squad player.
 
alexthelion said:
There's been a management change sure, but all we hear about is Jimbo did this, Jimbo did that, Jimbo wants this or that. It almost appears as if Jimbo is the one making all the decisions and the other management is superfluous.
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He's the biggest story, plain and simple, in the 'united in disarray' story. You can't genuinely believe that the entire management structure has been changed at great expense but they're superfluous because SJR, a very successful businessman (whatever you make of his business) has decided he can do it all himself? Seriously?
 
alexthelion said:
There's been a management change sure, but all we hear about is Jimbo did this, Jimbo did that, Jimbo wants this or that. It almost appears as if Jimbo is the one making all the decisions and the other management is superfluous.
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He is the figurehead and basically unmovable since it will cost north of a billion to depose him so the likes of Berrada and Co will make him be the face of the big calls. For instance, on the Ashworth issue it is Berrada who brought in his mate as Technical Director before Dan even stepped in, ideally Ashworth should have been the one making that call and after he got sacked they just let Wilcox do both jobs. It's clear, from afar, who was instrumental in that call.

Imagine if it was Brailsford or Berrada taking the criticism that SJR is receiving, would their positions still be tenable? I think the other guys are recommending what needs to be done, SJR takes the flak for those decisions because he is untouchable and looks like it doesn't phase him so these guys have a bit of credit in the bank with fans.
 
JPRouve said:
Neither of these players move the needle, it's debatable if they are long term pieces but they cost a combined 95m. In isolation they are not terrible moves but when you keep making that type of moves, you go nowhere from a Football standpoint while your finances suffer. You do that 10 times and you accumulated 500m worth of squad player.
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You’re judging those signings on the failure of other signings, which is unfair.

The signings and contracts that were actually meant to move the needle (Hojlund, Sancho, Antony, Onana, Maguire, Pogba?, Sanchez, Casemiro, Mount, Rashford) were shortsighted or have largely failed.

Signing a 25 year old De Ligt and 23 year old Ugarte is a drop in the ocean.
 
Chumpsbechumps said:
20 million shouldn’t throw us over the egde, that’s pennies in the kind of finances United are managing.
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1) It's £20m on top of a string of eye watering losses we've been racking up.
2) We have seen a sustained decline in our ability to generate cash - the cash that pays for everything. That will kill us if we don't address it.

The numbers are public, you don't need to assume anything about anyone's intentions, you only need to know how to read a balance sheet.
 
100 said:
You’re judging those signings on the failure of other signings, which is unfair.

The signings and contracts that were actually meant to move the needle (Hojlund, Sancho, Antony, Onana, Maguire, Pogba?, Sanchez, Casemiro, Mount, Rashford) were shortsighted or have largely failed.

Signing a 25 year old De Ligt and 23 year old Ugarte is a drop in the ocean.
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I'm not. I used them as examples of the type of signings that clubs shouldn't make in principal. The point is to avoid these middling transfers, the chance of them being successful isn't that high, the chance of recouping your money aren't that high and they are expensive enough to limit the amount of punts you can take.

The 30m to 60m range for players with question marks is not good but people feel comfortable with it because the fees aren't outrageous but they still hurt your finances badly.
 
UpWithRivers said:
To save United you have to pump more money into it not cut costs and put up prices or at least do both. Yes in the long term it should get to a stage where its not losing money. But that should be a long term plan. If Sir Jim was serious he would pay off the debt of 700 mill or whatever it is to allow us to sign players and then build the stadium. Then none of this PSR would be a thing. Its INEOS and the Glazers putting it out to the media that we are broke and need to cut costs Bullsht. If they really wanted to they could solve the financing easily. But INEOS cant do it because they only own 25 percent and the Glazers wont do it. But if they wanted they could find loopholes. Sell shares. Sell naming rights. Whatever. Chelsea, Barca and loads of clubs are doing this while we are acting like Everton, selling assets and arguing about pennies here and there. its a joke
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To save United, you first have to stop haemorrhaging cash. When you have confidence that the operations are working again, THEN you can invest proper money. United doesn't have a revenue problem, it has a cost problem. You have to start there first.
 
100 said:
You’re judging those signings on the failure of other signings, which is unfair.

The signings and contracts that were actually meant to move the needle (Hojlund, Sancho, Antony, Onana, Maguire, Pogba?, Sanchez, Casemiro, Mount, Rashford) were shortsighted or have largely failed.
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Truth, we have failed with the big signings more than we have with the average ones. The killer is that those aren't easy to move because of their wages and you end up giving them away whilst still paying for them in some cases.
100 said:
Signing a 25 year old De Ligt and 23 year old Ugarte is a drop in the ocean.
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De Ligt and Ugarte at worst can replace the roles played by Lindelof and Fred in years gone by. They will be useful and won't be detrimental like Casemiro is now.
 
croadyman said:
Completely agree with you, however in our financial situation I worry where is the money coming from
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It has to come from our operations, as it always has. That is what makes us different.

I have no doubt this club has a huge revenue possibilities. Hell, I would even reluctantly accept selling the naming rights if the price was right. But at the moment we spend more than we make, because our investment in players has been terrible. Fixing those two things is essential (and will take time). Why would anyone put billions into a club that can't even get those basics right first?
 
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nickm said:
To save United, you first have to stop haemorrhaging cash. When you have confidence that the operations are working again, THEN you can invest proper money. United doesn't have a revenue problem, it has a cost problem. You have to start there first.
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United has a revenue problem. Here is a quote to support my point: "Matchday revenue, our combined Broadcasting and Matchday revenue related to European competitions was £53.8 million, £37.5 million and £75.0 million for each of the years ended 30 June 2024, 2023 and 2022, respectively."

The 75m are only after a round of 16 finish, so over the next two seasons assuming that the UEFA didn't increase the money shared the club missed around 59m by just not reaching the round of 16 of the CL. And that's excluding the fact that you also get more money by being in a CL spot in the PL. And that's this "loss" of revenue season after season that hurts us the most.
 
JPRouve said:
United has a revenue problem. Here is a quote to support my point: "Matchday revenue, our combined Broadcasting and Matchday revenue related to European competitions was £53.8 million, £37.5 million and £75.0 million for each of the years ended 30 June 2024, 2023 and 2022, respectively."

The 75m are only after a round of 16 finish, so over the next two seasons assuming that the UEFA didn't increase the money shared the club missed around 59m by just not reaching the round of 16 of the CL. And that's excluding the fact that you also get more money by being in a CL spot in the PL. And that's this "loss" of revenue season after season that hurts us the most.
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It's a cost problem, because we have a squad that costs CL money to earn EL revenues (match day & broadcast). Total revenues in dollar terms have grown by nearly 200m since 2021 (to record levels in 2024). But operating costs have risen far faster, which is why we've been losing money even as overall revenues have grown. It's the costs.
 
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Desert Eagle said:
I hate how they signed off as Manchester United. The fan letter in response should do the same and tell those suits that haven't done jack shit for the club to do some positive things before they feel comfortable being in charge. INEOS has been a massive disappointment so far, they haven't cleared the debt and haven't invested any of their own money and we've turned into a team that is going to strip itself of assets and raise prices at the same time.
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They have invested money into facilities etc

They have also invested the personal max allowed under PSR

The only way to get out of the financial mess is by paying off the debt which will allow us to buy anyone. BUT why would INEOS pay off 500m debt when they don’t own the majority of the club? The onus is on the glazers to remove the debt or to give up enough of the club to warrant SJR then paying off the debt
 
nickm said:
It's a cost problem, because we have a squad that costs CL money to earn EL revenues.
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Yeah, tha's a revenue issue caused by a lack of competitiveness. The goal is to be a CL team and expenditure are in line with that goal the misalignment is with the failure to maximize those expenditure which caused a loss of revenue related to prize money and broadcasting.

Now if your goal is to be an EL team then you are right, we have cost issue.
 
golden_blunder said:
They have invested money into facilities etc

They have also invested the personal max allowed under PSR

The only way to get out of the financial mess is by paying off the debt which will allow us to buy anyone. BUT why would INEOS pay off 500m debt when they don’t own the majority of the club? The onus is on the glazers to remove the debt or to give up enough of the club to warrant SJR then paying off the debt
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Well there's no chance of those leeches ever removing their own debt, as for whether they give up enough for Ratcliffe to pay it off is another thing
 
Can Ineos sell their ownership? If they give up and sell it it would be the stuff of nightmare. Obviously glazers dont care about the footballing side anymore and just wants to keep milking out those dividends. If ineos give up we are fecked.
 
tenpoless said:
Can Ineos sell their ownership? If they give up and sell it it would be the stuff of nightmare. Obviously glazers dont care about the footballing side anymore and just wants to keep milking out those dividends. If ineos give up we are fecked.
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Why? Ineos haven't shown any sort of competency in Football, if they weren't here the situation shouldn't be different or at least not worst. Part of the problem in the past 12 months have been their own decisions to waste time and money on ETH.
 
JPRouve said:
Yeah, tha's a revenue issue caused by a lack of competitiveness. The goal is to be a CL team and expenditure are in line with that goal the misalignment is with the failure to maximize those expenditure which caused a loss of revenue related to prize money and broadcasting.

Now if your goal is to be an EL team then you are right, we have cost issue.
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If you are consistently spending more than you are making, and you can no longer afford it, then the problem is the spending.
 
JPRouve said:
Why? Ineos haven't shown any sort of competency in Football, if they weren't here the situation shouldn't be different or at least not worst. Part of the problem in the past 12 months have been their own decisions to waste time and money on ETH.
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They are trying to do things differently. They made mistakes and hopefully they'll learn from it. There's no perspective owner who would definitely get everything right from the start when it comes to the football part.
 
nickm said:
If you are consistently spending more than you are making, the problem is the spending.
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Or your inability to capture all the revenues that are available to you and in the case of United and sport clubs that fact is easily identifiable and I gave you an example of it. Now not maximizing its revenue shouldn't prevent a club from optimizing their spendings so I don't really disagree with your idea that spending can be a problem but the biggest issue for United is the lack of competitiveness which has for direct consequence a big loss of revenue in a multitude of areas, the gate, broadcasting rights, prize money and also sponsorship.

That's different from Barcelona during Messi's prime, where they were competitive and maximized their revenues but were overspending.
 
Amir said:
They are trying to do things differently. They made mistakes and hopefully they'll learn from it. There's no perspective owner who would definitely get everything right from the start when it comes to the football part.
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I don't mind giving him the benefit of doubts but it makes little sense to suggest that without them we would be in a worst situation.
 
Pickle85 said:
It takes a while. It's not going to happen overnight. Also, using Chelsea as an example of success is bizarre at best. What have they won so far using this strategy?

Minimizing how big a change entirely revamping the management structure actually is, is bizarre. It's an enormous change in terms of how the club is run, so dismissing it is silly, to be frank.

Keep the drama up if it helps you cope though.
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I wasnt using Chelsea as a barometer of success. I was using them as a barometer of thinking outside the box. They invested heavily in youth players and loaned them all out and then generated profit from sales of home grown players. They gave 9 year contracts. They sell assets to the owner to fudge PSR. And all sorts of other schemes. Look at Barca. Yes they are a right state but they are still trying to build a successful team and spend on players. Why? Because they know its the foundation of what a football club is. What do we do? Cancel Christmas? Im not saying dont cut costs. Do it. Fair enough. But you have to have a successful team. You cant just go around being 13th in the table. Thats suicide. And to that you need more than cancelling Christmas, installing a new manager and new management. This it takes time is a loser mentality. Fk that. They should have cleared debts and bought players in Jan. Its a non negotiable. Lets see how much they spend in summer. If its not 200 plus then they fkd up.
nickm said:
To save United, you first have to stop haemorrhaging cash. When you have confidence that the operations are working again, THEN you can invest proper money. United doesn't have a revenue problem, it has a cost problem. You have to start there first.
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No you dont have to stop hemorrhaging cash first. You can do that and pump money in at the same time. New businesses lose millions and millions till they are profitable. Amazon was hemorrhaging cash like a mother fkr. 3 billion in losses and took them 10 years to be profitable. Yes United is not a new business. But its not Woolworths either. This mentality of penny pinching without massive investment is small club mentality.
 
nickm said:
It has to come from our operations, as it always has. That is what makes us different.

I have no doubt this club has a huge revenue possibilities. Hell, I would even reluctantly accept selling the naming rights if the price was right. But at the moment we spend more than we make, because our investment in players has been terrible. Fixing those two things is essential (and will take time). Why would anyone put billions into a club that can't even get those basics right first?
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Yeah you can be sure that Barca would have zero problem selling off their naming rights for money
 
Amir said:
They are trying to do things differently. They made mistakes and hopefully they'll learn from it. There's no perspective owner who would definitely get everything right from the start when it comes to the football part.
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Well someone who could kick those leeches out of the club immediately and clear debt
 
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UpWithRivers said:
Putting in a new management structure and a new manager is nothing. Well not nothing but its football 101 that all the other clubs have done. Its not exactly revolutionary. What United need is a massive cash injection and clever strategies. Look at Chelsea. 9 year contracts. Selling hotels. Yes we all laughed at them but they are thinking out of the box not just saying we got a new manager and CEO so lets all clap. But sure lets see what happens. Maybe cost cutting and penny pinching will right the ship but i have ever seen any other big club take this strategy. Name one. Do you see Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Real Madrid putting it out everywhere that they are broke and need to cancel Christmas? Its excuses after excuses with United and Im fking sick of it. We are 13th and according to the manager the worst united team in history. Time for excuses is over. Do better
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Which of those teams have our debt?
 
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