No, no and no (in that order).
Classic Players - Bryan Robson: The greatest British midfielder ever?
- Thread starter Joga Bonito
- Start date
No, no and no (in that order).
Excellent work again Joga. Much appreciated.
Always a tough one, comparing players across different eras and personally, I find it difficult to split 1-2-3 and then where to cut off from 3-4-5 etc
Leaving big Dunc aside, because I never saw him but he is obviously in the top three, here goes, in no special order, for me
Robbo
Mackay
Giles
Just think they were extra special
Then
Keane
Brady
Bremner
Scholes
Possibly Souness
Charlton was not a midfielder. For United, a winger, then an inside forward then a deep lying centre forward. His game was so expansive he would often help out even in defence when necessary but not to be confused. Always thought Rooney played similar roles.
Whether some like it or not, NI is part of Great Britain. Official.
Always a tough one, comparing players across different eras and personally, I find it difficult to split 1-2-3 and then where to cut off from 3-4-5 etc
Leaving big Dunc aside, because I never saw him but he is obviously in the top three, here goes, in no special order, for me
Robbo
Mackay
Giles
Just think they were extra special
Then
Keane
Brady
Bremner
Scholes
Possibly Souness
Charlton was not a midfielder. For United, a winger, then an inside forward then a deep lying centre forward. His game was so expansive he would often help out even in defence when necessary but not to be confused. Always thought Rooney played similar roles.
Whether some like it or not, NI is part of Great Britain. Official.
It really isn't, it's part of the UK. The British flag should tell you, it's blue white and red taking parts of each nation.
GB, England Scotland and Wales.
Or England and Wales once they get their referendum
Cheers for the comments and input.
Indeed it was one of his more remarkable traits, how selfless he was despite being a match-winning influence and the best player for both club and country. Precisely why he was such a great leader and why he was held in such high esteem by his teammates.
Indeed it was one of his more remarkable traits, how selfless he was despite being a match-winning influence and the best player for both club and country. Precisely why he was such a great leader and why he was held in such high esteem by his teammates.
Subliminally lodged in my unconsciousness, probably / not paying attention - sorry.
I've watched every United game bar 3 since 1975. I can't compare Robbo to his predecessors. Many say Duncan Edwards was the best midfielder to wear the shirt but I am not (quite) old enough to have seen him play. That said, for me, Robbo is quite simply the best player since 1975 to wear a United shirt. And yes, the most underrated. Best reader of the game I ever saw. Positionally amazing. No midfielder I ever saw could time their runs into the box like Robbo. Scorer of big and important goals. Never bottled it. Best work ethic. Amazing one touch player and dictated a fast tempo to games. Strong on the ball, strong in the tackle but not dirty. Defence splitting passes. He also had reasonable pace. Incredible will to win and motivational captain, he would drive the whole team forward. Had everything. It is unfortunate for him that for most of his captaincy, he wasn't captaining a particularly strong United squad. I can't imagine how he'd be remembered if he'd had (say) the class of 92 around him in his and their heyday, and if he hadn't suffered the injuries he did. I am also a huge Roy Keane fan, but I can't take seriously the idea that he might have been better. Roy was a force of nature, but if he'd played alongside (no offence, but) the Mike Duxbury's, Jesper Olsens, Arthur Grahams and Clayton Blackmores, he would not have been able to do half of what Robbo did. For me, take the best of Keane and the best of Scholes, that's what you have in Bryan Robson.
Great read.
Robbo mural which will be going up in J Stand concourse for this season
Love this!
Childhood hero and such a nice down to earth bloke too.
I wouldn't say that Scholes was a better midfielder, because you can't really compare the two. It would be like trying to compare Robson and Hoddle back in the day. Both special but very different. Scholes couldn't tackle, whereas Robbo was a beast. Robbo rarely gave a stray pass, but scholesy could unlock a defence from nothing. Both had incredible timing getting into the box. For me Robson is the greatest all round midfielder we've had since Charlton.
IMO Scholes and Keane were both better than Robson. They both proved themselves against the highest opposition over a longer period than Robson did. The number of winners medals Keane and Scholes won in an era when the quality of the English top league was at argubly its highest level ever is proof. Keane won 7 league titles, thats an incredible achievement. Scholes won 11, how you could rate a player that barely won anything in his career as being above that level I can't understand. Keane and Scholes proved themselves against the world's best year after year in the CL too. I don't buy the 'they played with better players' argument, they just were better players. It's like saying Ronaldinho was only good because he played for Barça and Brazil.
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Firstly, Britain is an island that has three countries on it. England, Scotland and Wales. Ireland is an island with two countries. Ireland and Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain. It is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland though, so I can see why you might be confused about it.
Secondly, how you could create a list that has Johnny Giles, who won 2 league titles, in the best three midfielders that played in England is beyond me, when the second list has three players who have won 23 league titles between them.
Those three players also have 6 European Cup wins between them.
You've also managed to exclude a player that won 2 back to back European Cups with Forest, Martin O'Neill, which is an unbelievable achievement, for him, and for you.
Your list is total bollox. Official.
Yeah nah...Robson proved himself for just as long as Keane and Scholes did. You cant just dismiss the fact Keane and Scholes had better players around them because the cold hard truth is they did. If Robson had the same level of players around him that they did he would have won just as many medals. However using medals as some sort of a measure is misleading anyway, its a team game, very very few players have been able to win a lot of medals surrounded by the quality of players Robson was surrounded with, neither Keane or Scholes would have alone been enough for Utd of that era to have won lots of trophies because of the same reasons Robson didnt end up with lots of medals.
Its a team game and the numbers of trophies a player wins during a career is absolutely related to the quality of players they played with, to think otherwise is just daft. Also what gets forgotten is that Robsons managers for most of his career simply werent the calibre of Fergie and he only got to work under Fergie at the end of his career while Fergie was still trying to build the Utd we all saw him build.
Its nothing like saying Ronaldinho was only good because he played with Brazil and Barca, nothing at all. Ronaldinho was good because he just was, difference here is he played with surrounding players that meant the teams he played in won things. Robson was good because he just was, trouble was he wasnt surrounded by the quality Ronaldinho was. You cant win trophies on your own over a long period of time. Even today Ronaldo and Messi are surround by fantastic players.
Robson was a true box to box midfielder, he could tackle, he could pass with either foot and shoot with either foot. He was great with short interchange passing and could pass long (with either foot). He was an absolute beast in the air and had a monster of an engine. He was the ultimate leader and drove his team like few others could.
Its easy to rate a player like Robson alongside the likes of Keane and Scholes, you simply just had to have watched him during his career, he was magnificent. He was a fearless, committed complete midfielder who inspired his team mates and gave Utd fans of that era some hope despite the average players we had.
This whole trophies and titles argument is a lazy diversion.
my favourite player as a kid by a country mile!
Was like Keane & Scholes rolled into one
Was like Keane & Scholes rolled into one
Have to agree - Robson was surrounded by just a handful of class players, Olsen, Muhren and Mcgrath to name a few. He motivated and enhanced a team made of players that whilst full of heart and passion like Remi Moses, would largely be viewed as Championship level these days. That they even won the odd cup and even threatened the league title on a couple of occasions is mainly down to Robson.
I'm sure you could plot a graph of United's league position against Robson's injury record and they would line up pretty accurately.(not that i am volunteering or asking Joga for that level of detail!)
Look, I'm not trying to say he doesn't deserve the plaudits, he 100% does. He was mint. You don't need to try and convince me of that. And so you know I have seen him play, so I know how good he was, in fact he was my favourite United player when I was a kid. Probably had something to do with the armband too, that air of leadership, something you look up to as a kid.
Saying how many games played to how many games won and trophies won during a players career aren't acceptable ways to measure a players greatness is ridiculous, what do they even play the game for if thats the case? Winning is the only measure of success, just listen to some footballers interviews and you'll hear that from them all. You can be as good as you want, if you don't win anything it only proves that you weren't as good as the team that did win the league in those years.
And the way you say it you'd swear he was playing his entire career with absolute dogshit, which isn't true, not even by a long shot. He didnt win that 1985 FA Cup on his own, or the 1984 Cup Winners Cup, or the 1991 Cup Winners Cup.
Firstly, Britain is an island that has three countries on it. England, Scotland and Wales. Ireland is an island with two countries. Ireland and Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain. It is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland though, so I can see why you might be confused about it.
Secondly, how you could create a list that has Johnny Giles, who won 2 league titles, in the best three midfielders that played in England is beyond me, when the second list has three players who have won 23 league titles between them.
Those three players also have 6 European Cup wins between them.
You've also managed to exclude a player that won 2 back to back European Cups with Forest, Martin O'Neill, which is an unbelievable achievement, for him, and for you.
Your list is total bollox. Official.
You place far too much importance of the trophy count without really providing a solid argument behind why you believe these players were better or why you'd dismiss @Denis' cuff 's list as 'total bollox'.
If you believe Scholes and Keane were better, fair enough, by all means do so and it is well within your rights.
However, one doesn't get bought for a near world record fee, deliver fantastic performances on the international stage (1982 WC & 1988 Euros) and the European Cup Competitions, finish in the top 10 of the ballon d'Or a whopping 4 times and of course, be chased by the likes of Milan, Juventus and some of the best clubs from the best league at that point of time, Serie A, without being a quality player.
Sorry, I never said he wasn't a great player, he's just not the best British midfielder to play in England.
I can't provide a more solid argument than the trophy haul of a players career. I thought that was the argument... Proof of sustained performances above every other team from the players era.
I first saw George Best play in 1967, got to watch him play lots of times at OT in 1970 and 1971. I have all the old football annuals and also remember very clearly at his peak he was viewed around the football world as one of the very best players in the world alongside Pele, Cryuff, Beckenbaur and Eusebio.
Best played for NI, he never got to play at a WC.
If you took either Scholes or Keane and swapped them with Best, NI still wouldnt have qualified for a WC. The quality of players surrounding a player is relevant and has an impact on the trophies they get to win during a career, to think otherwise is just daft, its a nonsense.
btw nowhere did I say the players he played with were dogshit, thats you twisting things. However they werent at the same level of the players that Scholes and Keane were supported by.
Given that Best really only was available (at his peak) for one world cup selection where he would have made any difference for N.I. is also worth noting. In 62 he hadn't even made his debut for N.I. or United, by 70 he was well past his best (no pun intended). He also won a European cup, a Balon D'or and 2 leagues.
Keane and Scholes both played in world cups, Keane pretty much dragged Ireland to one in 2002, with a team that pretty much was dogshit. I know because I watched every game.
Out of interest, how many full internationals played with Robbo in the 80s? I think most of the team were, at least most of the starting XI were.
ffs what a joke.
How? You're saying the team around him was useless, but was filled with full internationals. It makes no sense. I'll just leave you to your love in.
Never once did I say the team around Robson was useless. Please quote me where I did. Miss comprehension in English class at school did you?
You're going to get personal now? Because you don't like what I'm saying.
Not sure you went to English class at all, you don't even know what you've said / implied...
You are the one who made the snide "leave you to your love in" remark. Now you get all indignant when you get it thrown back at you.
The idea that you can dismiss a players ability or influence or position in a clubs history because they didnt win that many trophies is simply daft. It lacks intelligence, clarity or the ability to comprehend a clear difference in situation and time.
Using your angle would Utd have won more trophies if Robson was swapped out during his era with Scholes or Keane? If you think yes then you are in lala land.
Ok, I see what the problem is, you want an intelligent analysis of Keane or Scholes, something similar to your line "Robson was better because he just was" because "you'd have to have seen him to understand"? I get it. Sorry for getting in your way, hail hail!
Firstly, Britain is an island that has three countries on it. England, Scotland and Wales. Ireland is an island with two countries. Ireland and Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain. It is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland though, so I can see why you might be confused about it.
Secondly, how you could create a list that has Johnny Giles, who won 2 league titles, in the best three midfielders that played in England is beyond me, when the second list has three players who have won 23 league titles between them.
Those three players also have 6 European Cup wins between them.
You've also managed to exclude a player that won 2 back to back European Cups with Forest, Martin O'Neill, which is an unbelievable achievement, for him, and for you.
Your list is total bollox. Official.
Categorical thinking is good when you deal with simple and clearly defined taxonomies, like geographical borders.
It's less useful when you evaluate complex qualities in complex situations, like comparing midfielders from different eras.
The claim 'you're about as good as the medals your team won' is clearly dosh, as it makes it inexplicable how it is possible that:
Martin O'Neill won 2 Europa cups, yet only 1 English league and have no International medals.
Ryan Giggs have bucketloads of league and other trophies to his name, yet never even qualified for as much as a European Championship.
Kleberson is a World Champion (nuff said).
And it makes it strange how Paul Scholes (11 titles) never was the lynchpin of an England midfield where Steven Gerrard (0 league titles) was first on the team sheet under several managers. Robson, all the while, was a mainstay in England teams claiming several European Cup winners.
It is also strange to claim that the English league was better in Scholes' era than in Robson's, when Liverpool, Nottingham Forest and Aston Villa saw to that English teams won 7 of 8 conescutive Europa Cups, while Tottenham, Ipswich and Everton were notable winners of the other competition, until English teams were excluded from Europe from 85 for known reasons.
The counter to the "show us your medals" argument is why Keane and Scholes failed to win more Champions League medals despite being part of what was generally a very strong team under an outstanding manager. Robson only played in a strong United team in the first few years and at the very end of his United career.
As for the three of them, direct comparisons are difficult. Robson was closer to Keane but with a bit of Lampard thrown in.
As for the three of them, direct comparisons are difficult. Robson was closer to Keane but with a bit of Lampard thrown in.
Yeah I agree mate.
Anyone who remembers us in the 80s knows just how much of a difference Robbo being in the team meant to us. Bck when I was 13 I remember the feeling of despair not having Robbo in the team for the 83 milk cup final, and the 84 cup winners cup semi final. I suppose the one drawback of having him in our team is that we relied on him so much. Then there was the disastrous run in to the league in 86 when he dislocated his shoulder.
For a man to carry us for so long, he has to be one of the greatest unsung heros for us, and England.
“Personally, I think Gerrard is England’s greatest ever player. I wish him a happy retirement" Lionel Messi
But speaking about Liverpool and speaking about honouring the champions, this is my time to honour a champion. It is my time to honour Steve Gerrard.It is with opponents like him that I am the manager that I am, because I learn with my players and I learn with my best opponents. I tried to bring him to Chelsea, I tried to bring him to Inter (Milan), I tried to bring him to Real Madrid but he was always a dear enemy."
Jose Mourinho on Steven Gerrard
"I have played alongside some of the greatest footballers of my generation, but there is only one ex-team-mate I would rate higher than Steven Gerrard. The biggest compliment I can give him is he is second only to Zinedine Zidane in terms of his world-class status." Michael Owen on Steven Gerrard
"Cristiano is a great player. But Steven Gerrard is, for me, one of the very best in the world. For the job he performs, for me, he is one of the greatest." Ronaldhinho on Steven Gerrard
“We beat Real Madrid 4-0 at Anfield and Raul came up and asked if he’d go to Real Madrid in that summer, so that is how strong the feeling was from Real Madrid – the actual captain asking if he’d sign! We used get that type of thing plenty of times!" Liverpool FC Jamie Carragher on Steven Gerrard
"Steven Gerrard is undoubtedly a world class player and I wish he'd played for United. I went on a tapping-up mission at Euro 2004 when I knew Chelsea were trying to take advantage of Liverpool being in turmoil. 'Come play for United,’ I said one day to Steven when we were in the hotel. 'The fans will take to you in no time.' He just laughed, and said: 'I’ll do it if you go to Anfield.'" Manchester United FC legend Gary Neville on tapping up Steven Gerrard. Quote from Gary Neville's Autobiography RED.
"I had the chance to play with so many great players and saw so many in this league. Alongside Paul Scholes, he is the player I would have like to have played with. He could do anything well, whether it was a nice tackle or assist, everything was done well. The quality that he had was at the time, especially in Europe, underrated. He was just an amazing player."
Thierry Henry on Steven Gerrard
“He has become the most influential player in England, bar none. Not that Vieira lacks anything, but Gerrard does more.” Alex Ferguson
For me, and I have always said this, he will be regarded as one of the greatest midfielders ever when he finishes his career. No doubt.
Kaka
"He's one of the players I would have loved to coach, and I thought about him so many times in the past when I was at Milan. But it was impossible because he was very much linked with Liverpool. We had sounded him out but Gerrard's bond with Liverpool was unbreakable. I don't remember exactly what year it was but we did try. Of course, I wanted to pair him up with Pirlo, it was a fantastic combination. Putting Gerrard in midfield with Pirlo. It would have been fantastic."
Carlo Ancelotti on Steven Gerrard
Sorry guys, he deserves a mention. Gerrard was a giant. One of the best British midfielders ever. In fact, I see him as a better, more complete version of Robson.
But speaking about Liverpool and speaking about honouring the champions, this is my time to honour a champion. It is my time to honour Steve Gerrard.It is with opponents like him that I am the manager that I am, because I learn with my players and I learn with my best opponents. I tried to bring him to Chelsea, I tried to bring him to Inter (Milan), I tried to bring him to Real Madrid but he was always a dear enemy."
Jose Mourinho on Steven Gerrard
"I have played alongside some of the greatest footballers of my generation, but there is only one ex-team-mate I would rate higher than Steven Gerrard. The biggest compliment I can give him is he is second only to Zinedine Zidane in terms of his world-class status." Michael Owen on Steven Gerrard
"Cristiano is a great player. But Steven Gerrard is, for me, one of the very best in the world. For the job he performs, for me, he is one of the greatest." Ronaldhinho on Steven Gerrard
“We beat Real Madrid 4-0 at Anfield and Raul came up and asked if he’d go to Real Madrid in that summer, so that is how strong the feeling was from Real Madrid – the actual captain asking if he’d sign! We used get that type of thing plenty of times!" Liverpool FC Jamie Carragher on Steven Gerrard
"Steven Gerrard is undoubtedly a world class player and I wish he'd played for United. I went on a tapping-up mission at Euro 2004 when I knew Chelsea were trying to take advantage of Liverpool being in turmoil. 'Come play for United,’ I said one day to Steven when we were in the hotel. 'The fans will take to you in no time.' He just laughed, and said: 'I’ll do it if you go to Anfield.'" Manchester United FC legend Gary Neville on tapping up Steven Gerrard. Quote from Gary Neville's Autobiography RED.
"I had the chance to play with so many great players and saw so many in this league. Alongside Paul Scholes, he is the player I would have like to have played with. He could do anything well, whether it was a nice tackle or assist, everything was done well. The quality that he had was at the time, especially in Europe, underrated. He was just an amazing player."
Thierry Henry on Steven Gerrard
“He has become the most influential player in England, bar none. Not that Vieira lacks anything, but Gerrard does more.” Alex Ferguson
For me, and I have always said this, he will be regarded as one of the greatest midfielders ever when he finishes his career. No doubt.
Kaka
"He's one of the players I would have loved to coach, and I thought about him so many times in the past when I was at Milan. But it was impossible because he was very much linked with Liverpool. We had sounded him out but Gerrard's bond with Liverpool was unbreakable. I don't remember exactly what year it was but we did try. Of course, I wanted to pair him up with Pirlo, it was a fantastic combination. Putting Gerrard in midfield with Pirlo. It would have been fantastic."
Carlo Ancelotti on Steven Gerrard
Sorry guys, he deserves a mention. Gerrard was a giant. One of the best British midfielders ever. In fact, I see him as a better, more complete version of Robson.
One thing I remember about Robson is the sheer scale of disappointment in the press and amongst fans when he was injured before England's major matches. He was widely regarded as England's main world-class player and game-changer. The loss of Gerrard, Lampard, and Scholes at times, would have been regarded as a blow, but not to the same extent.
It's funny how memory can play tricks. Even when Keane & Scholes were in their prime I still thought they're not good as Robson. But trophies also play tricks, because now I rate them both ahead of him.
meant this definately an after work on a friday one to many stellas post gerrard was never in the same class as robso never in a million feckin years
This is all British to me. Could you please explain what you wrote?
P.S. I am Greek