CL Final - How far are we from reaching this level of football?

Theonas said:
Inter last year reached a CL final beating Porto, Benfica and AC Milan. I don't think that that's much harder than beating Liverpool if I am honest.
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Inter qualified from their group ahead of the Barcelona that won la Liga that year… And they played toe to toe with City in the final (Guardiola said he was lucky to win that final, given Lukaku’s misses)… The Liverpool we defeated this year is the one that got destroyed at home by Atalanta…
 
mu4c_20le said:
Not trying to be silly. Just that it's much harder to fluke a CL, and I'm not that confident we could've done liverpool over two legs. Now if he somehow did win the CL this year, I'd gladly give him some more time like chelsea did for Di Matteo!
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Di Matteo had a weak squad but it included some great players (Cech, Terry, Drogba, Lampard..) with immense experience of the high level. They pulled it through and it was still a fluke.
 
Theonas said:
Inter last year reached a CL final beating Porto, Benfica and AC Milan. I don't think that that's much harder than beating Liverpool if I am honest.
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Last time Liverpool reached the final they only had to play Inter, Benfica, and Villareal in the knockout rounds
 
siw2007 said:
We are a long way off. But a ‘long way’ can be bridged very quickly. Liverpool were nowhere in 2015, but three years later they were in a final, and 4 years later they won it.

What we need is to have about 3 summer transfer windows where we get our recruitment absolutely spot on. Then as long as we are getting it right on the training pitch, we won’t be far off.
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Basically what I'm saying as well. As of now we'd get embarassed by that Madrid team that so many are saying "weren't impressive". But any big club is only a few years of key decisions and moves being made away from ascending to that top level.
 
Winrar said:
To give a little context on this, we finished bottom in a group that had:

Bayern (finished 3rd behind Stuttgart this season)
Galatasray (knocked out by Sparta Prague as soon as they got relegated to EL)
Copenhagen (Brushed aside by City)

With our only one win in the group barely secured from a stoppage time penalty save.
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It's incredible how people can watch us get outplayed by bottom table sides for an entire year and then proudly boast that we are as good as Dortmund just because we scraped by City in a one off game.
 
Raoul said:
Dortmund made the final, which undercuts everything you're saying (with two players on United's roster last year no less). Also, we just beat the reigning CL champs just a week ago, so clearly United are capable of beating the top teams in cup comps.
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You would have to beat multiple teams above our level to get there, not a chance we are anywhere near. Our FA Cup run was built on two games (all the others were against lower league teams that are far below even the group stage of CL).
 
Sarni said:
You would have to beat multiple teams above our level to get there, not a chance we are anywhere near. Our FA Cup run was built on two games (all the others were against lower league teams that are far below even the group stage of CL).
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We just beat multiple teams above our level to win the FA Cup, both are recent CL winners. If you're talking about consistency in the group stages, I would generally agree.
 
Raoul said:
We beat Liverpool and City to win the cup, so there’s no telling how we would’ve done. The idea that Dortmund are somehow vastly better than us is absurd, in fact I’m pretty sure the side that beat City last week would’ve fared just as good or better against Madrid than Dortmund did.
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So you reckon we were not good enough to overcome Galatasaray and Copenhagen but there’s no way of telling how we’d far against PSG, Milan and Atletico?
 
Raoul said:
We just beat multiple teams above our level to win the FA Cup, both are recent CL winners. If you're talking about consistency in the group stages, I would generally agree.
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We beat two. That’s barely enough to get you through the groups. Also, beating teams over two legs where you have to play them away (where we struggle greatly) is tougher than playing one at home and one at a neutral ground.
 
You got trashed in the easiest group and United overall has been a joke in Europe so it seems far away to picture them reaching a semi final any time soon. Things can change quickly though but you will need better leadership and players with a more competitive mentality.
 
We signed Jesus, Zinchenko, Jorginho and recalled Saliba, a top DC back. And the team changed instantly. That's how quick things change. Ofcourse we had other ingredients as well like Odegaard, Gabriel, Saka, players United are lacking. But its not a decade away. A top centre back, a midfielder in the Odegaard mould and probably a top winger and the performances would instantly be different. Not sure about the manager, but signings wise it takes a good 2-3 windows and things can change if everyone is on the same page. Getting Glazers out was probably a first positive thing.
 
Okay, so league position only matters in our case, not Dortmund's...but when we bring up the good results against big teams in the last couple of seasons (and there's many of them), the reasoning as to why those don't matter either is that we finished 8th this season...got it. Why do I even bother arguing with posters on here?
 
You can sometimes fluke it with a decent team and a whole lot of luck. Very rarely, though.

But United aren't good enough even for that, and many years away from being consistent challengers. And that is if the club got it together starting this summer. It remains to be seen what Ratcliffe will do towards that end, but I won't be holding my breath. I don't believe it will be anytime soon.
 
Ignoring the 8th place finish, we were a borderline offside from losing to Coventry. The win over a hungover City is fooling a lot of people into thinking we're somehow not far away.
 
Given the overall quality of this Dortmund team, I'd say we're a good summer away from it.
 
From reaching a CL final with a rather lucky/easy path like Dortmund this year or like we had in 2011: we need a very good manager and some competent footballers, so I would say still at least 2-3 years away.

From winning the CL: at least 5 years away.
 
I really don't think we are that far off. We just need to strengthen the base of the team (back 6) and we will be able to compete with most CL regulars. We already have Martinez and Mainoo locked in. We need 4 others of that same quality and consistency at RB, LB, RCB and we will be good to go. Dalot can be on that level sometimes but he is inconsistent, Shaw is a crock and Varane is gone. I think once our back 6 is world class, the front 4 will be far more productive. Bruno's production dropped because he had to do more defensive duties. Actop end back 6 frees Bruno up to reach his maximum creativity level which we have already seen is world class. Also think it will allow Garnacho, Amad, Hojlund, Rashford to play looser and freer.
 
Leftback99 said:
Ignoring the 8th place finish, we were a borderline offside from losing to Coventry. The win over a hungover City is fooling a lot of people into thinking we're somehow not far away.
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No, some people are capable of realizing that this current side has two versions: A, the suicidal setup that we've seen for most of the season, and B, last season's tactics that ETH decided to revert to from the Arsenal game onwards and we've suddenly improved. Version B is not far away and there's tons of evidence for that. Nothing is stopping either ETH or a potential new manager from abandoning version A and for us to get back on track next season. It's more like ETH's stubbornness is fooling a lot of people into thinking we're a mid-table side.
 
Rojofiam said:
No, some people are capable of realizing that this current side has two versions: A, the suicidal setup that we've seen for most of the season, and B, last season's tactics that ETH decided to revert to from the Arsenal game onwards and we've suddenly improved. Version B is not far away and there's tons of evidence for that. Nothing is stopping either ETH or a potential new manager from abandoning version A and for us to get back on track next season. It's more like ETH's stubbornness is fooling a lot of people into thinking we're a mid-table side.
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There's no more evidence than a Palace fan thinking they are close too after their end to the season. Less if anything.

The fact that 'stubborn ETH' is still here makes us further away.
 
Leftback99 said:
There's no more evidence than a Palace fan thinking they are close too after their end to the season. Less if anything.

The fact that 'stubborn ETH' is still here makes us further away.
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The evidence I was referring to is not only our upturn in form in the last few games of the season. You also just basically pulled a random, irrelevant example out of nothing, thinking it will somehow prove your point? We have a much better squad than Palace already, and we won't sell all our current best players like they will within 3 or 4 summers, and they can't compete with the biggest clubs financially either. Just an awful example.
 
Rojofiam said:
The evidence I was referring to is not only our upturn in form in the last few games of the season. You also just basically pulled a random, irrelevant example out of nothing, thinking it will somehow prove your point? We have a much better squad than Palace already, and we won't sell all our current best players like they will within 3 or 4 summers, and they can't compete with the biggest clubs financially either. Just an awful example.
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It did prove my point, very well.
 
We're miles off, it would take several years of making mostly very good decisions (like Liverpool did from 2015 to 2018 when they also got maybe the best manager in the world) to get back to that level and even then we'd be hoping for a handy run and a bit of luck. People talking about a couple of signings or whatever are being silly, we were lucky to finish 8th.
 
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People bringing up teams in other leagues are also missing the point that it’s only worth comparing us to other PL teams. Teams in other leagues may or may not be aided by strength of competition in the league which could allow them to be fresher for CL games.

The only premier league teams to reach the CL final in the last ten years are

Liverpool 2018, Liverpool and Spurs 2019, Chelsea and City 2021 and City 2023.

So before you say we’re not far just consider how far we are from being on the level of these teams. You also have to consider the managers. More than likely you’ll need a top manager to reach the CL final. Terzic and Poch are exceptions if you go through the finalists. It’s possible luck out but the chances are definitely very low.

As a PL team, you need to fight for top 4 or winning the league and in recent years there’s been no rest for CL knockout games unless you’re running away with 1st place. We are so far away player wise, mentality wise and most importantly from a manager perspective.
 
RORY65 said:
We're miles off, it would take several years of making mostly very good decisions (like Liverpool did from 2015 to 2018 when they also got maybe the best manager in the world) to get back to that level and even then we'd be hoping for a handy run and a bit of luck. People talking about a couple of signings or whatever are being silly, we were lucky to finish 8th.
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Liverpool were in a worse position in 2015, than we are now. Awful squad, awful structure, and had just sold one of their best players to a rival in Sterling. Less money to spend as well.
 
Dannn411 said:
I really don't think we are that far off. We just need to strengthen the base of the team (back 6) and we will be able to compete with most CL regulars. We already have Martinez and Mainoo locked in. We need 4 others of that same quality and consistency at RB, LB, RCB and we will be good to go. Dalot can be on that level sometimes but he is inconsistent, Shaw is a crock and Varane is gone. I think once our back 6 is world class, the front 4 will be far more productive. Bruno's production dropped because he had to do more defensive duties. Actop end back 6 frees Bruno up to reach his maximum creativity level which we have already seen is world class. Also think it will allow Garnacho, Amad, Hojlund, Rashford to play looser and freer.
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I agree. People over react all the time. Inter Milan and Dortmund are not miles ahead of Utd and with a bit of luck should have won the finals.

The CL is a cup competition.Getting in the mix is the most important bit. If Utd reach the CL in 2026, it wouldn't surprise me one bit.
 
Rojofiam said:
Liverpool were in a worse position in 2015, than we are now. Awful squad, awful structure, and had just sold one of their best players to a rival in Sterling. Less money to spend as well.
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That's probably true but the reality was they had very few players who were good enough to be part of a team that competed at the top level and the same is true for us (the one difference being maybe we have a couple of younger players who will get there). They turned that around by appointing Klopp and being really successful with their recruitment. We're not going to find a manager as good as that, regardless of whether it's Ten Hag or someone else, so we will have to be very effective in rebuilding this squad.
 
Josh 76 said:
but if you want to delude yourself that's up to you
I agree. People over react all the time. Inter Milan and Dortmund are not miles ahead of Utd and with a bit of luck should have won the finals.

The CL is a cup competition.Getting in the mix is the most important bit. If Utd reach the CL in 2026, it wouldn't surprise me one bit.
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They are miles ahead of us, for starters, they are functional teams which we are a way off being, but if you want to delude yourself that's up to you
 
Football is a funny old game, and things can change very quickly. With a top class coach and 3-4 sensible signings, the club could easily be competing again for top honours.

People are always incredibly hyperbolic about both the good and the bad. Ignore all the doom mongers who say we have to sell virtually the entire squad, because that’s utter rubbish. We just need a better manager under a better structure (the second of which is under way), and a sensible evolution of the squad. If we finish top four next season, the season after anything could happen in the CL. Including a run to the final. Just need a decent draw, a bit of luck, and a well functioning team unit.

Just look at Dortmund. They just finished 5th in Germany. Hardly the strongest league. Admittedly they have less domestic league and cup games to play every year, which is an inherent advantage when it comes to the freshness of players; but they also have a much smaller budget. And they just made the final. Look at their starting 11. No household names on there. On paper it’s a very average looking team. In fact there’s hardly anyone in it that you would say you’d want United to sign. One of their marquee players in a player on loan from us because he failed here. And again….they made the final.

How? A good draw, a healthy dose of luck (how many times did PSG hit the woodwork?), great team spirit and cooperation, and smart tactics and approaches in individual games during their cup run.

My point isn’t to denigrate Dortmund, because they did well, but they really aren’t much or any further ahead than United. They are lucky they play in a league where, for a club their a size, it’s almost impossible not to qualify for the CL. But other than that, the difference is likely just having a coach that suits their players more.

United could, easily, be top four next week, and get to the final or win the Europa League, if we get in a top class coach, and make a few sensible additions. We don’t need 11 new players to compete. We don’t actually need any new players to compete on a reasonable level; just a much better manager. But to compete at a high level, we need a new manager plus maybe 3-4 signings. Because what is most wrong with this club, isn’t the quality of the players, it’s the culture, decision making, mentality, and tactics. There are clubs with worse players, worse infrastructure, and much smaller budgets, that are significantly more competitive than we are.

Again, look at Dortmund. They just played a CL final with Can, Sabitzer, and Brandt in midfield. Our most recent midfield is something like Mainoo, Amrabat and Fernandes. The two best midfielders on that list of 6 are probably United’s. Mainoo and Fernandes. Imagine what Dortmund could’ve done with them? Their attack? Fullkrug, Adeyemi, and our own Sancho….We have Rashford, Hojlund, and Garnacho. Again, no gulf in class. Just a better team unit. Better mentality, better tactics, better culture. All things which can be changed without replacing your whole squad.

Because United are such a big club, we are stuck in this mindset that our team has to be loaded with world class players. And don’t get me wrong, world class players are great, who doesn’t want them? But ultimately the most important thing in a team, is the team. That it is more than the sum of its parts. You don’t need the best players, you just need good players, and the best mentality, culture and approach.

It’s why I don’t want United to run off and try and solve our problems by buying our way out of mediocrity. I want us to change the culture and mentality at the club. To demand excellence, no matter the level of talent. To make smart decisions. To function as a cohesive unit. It’s at least a step in the right direction that recruitment is being stripped from the manager and we seem to have brought in the best in class executive football team we could.
 
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Red in STL said:
They are miles ahead of us, for starters, they are functional teams which we are a way off being, but if you want to delude yourself that's up to you
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You are genuinely fecking clueless if you believe this bang average Dortmund side is miles ahead of any of the top 8 teams in the PL. I can't believe that somehow the general consensus on here is always some godawful take.
 
It's a tournament defined heavily by flukes and luck... so not as far as you'd think, and really, it's about time United got their fluke massive overachievement run in the CL. So 2026, count on it.
 
2-3 years with the right manager appointment this summer and the right transfers this summer and next summer, plus getting hold of the injuries. We need quality in the starting eleven and also a good bench.

I have no confidence that we will do the right changes needed so soon, but in theory, i think it would be possible. We have the resources, but sentimentality and the 'every manager needs 5 years until he can be held accountable' mentality is holding us back
 
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