CL Final - How far are we from reaching this level of football?

Chicharo

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I think mainly about two things: winning a European trophy (provided we could qualify for the CL) and, perhaps more importantly at this moment, how close we are to the level of football shown this season by Real, Borussia, City, PSG, and others.
Our match against City can be an excellent indicator since City is still one of the best clubs in the world. With the kind of a performance we showed against them, it's realistic to believe we can beat anyone in a single match or over two legs.
Of course, for a team to win the CL, they need to demonstrate a certain level of consistency, but that's still quite different from what's required to win the league over 38 matches.

So, where do we currently stand?
 
Given that our performances in the league were at the level of a 10th-15th place side, we're as close as sides like Bournemouth, Palace and Fulham are.
 
Leftback99 said:
Given that our performances in the league were at the level of a 10th-15th place side, we're as close as sides like Bournemouth, Palace and Fulham are.
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This is the truth. But in a one-off season any team can make it to the final in Champions League, including us. It's a cup after all, and a lot of luck and defensive strategy is involved. Chelsea won it a few years ago, and so could we.

But on a consistent basis like Real Madrid? That's the real question. And the answer is absolutely not.

Our current squad is nowhere near that level, and will never be until we're basically a completely new side. And with the contracts most of our players are on, that's going to take 5+ years.

But the ironic thing is that it's actually easier to go far in the Champions League than challenging for the Premier League. Same goes for the other top 5 leagues. Borussia Dortmund are nowhere near good enough to even challenge for their own Bundesliga, yet anything can happen in a tournament. Spurs were in a final, and were not by any stretch one of the best teams in Europe. Chelsea won the Champions League under Tuchel, while they struggled in the Prem. Inter Milan was in the final last year, and they are also definitely not one of the very best teams in Europe.
 
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You have to reach knockout stages to have a chance. In 11 seasons since Fergie retired, we played 7 times in CL, reaching knockout phase 4 times and failing to do so 3 times (this season was particularly bad as we couldn't even finish 3rd to go to Europa). Got to last 8 only twice and obviously lost to superior teams in Bayern and Barca (Bayern away was great though for about a minute after Evra's goal).

We'll have to become a good side again, have some luck and avoid Spanish sides in the draw (as they beat us most of the times). Then we could have Inter /Dortmund CL season.
 
Why does this place always have to have a huge bigger picture thread after every single game? We could be 2 years or 100 years depending on the very unpredictable future.
 
Chicharo said:
I think mainly about two things: winning a European trophy (provided we could qualify for the CL) and, perhaps more importantly at this moment, how close we are to the level of football shown this season by Real, Borussia, City, PSG, and others.
Our match against City can be an excellent indicator since City is still one of the best clubs in the world. With the kind of a performance we showed against them, it's realistic to believe we can beat anyone in a single match or over two legs.
Of course, for a team to win the CL, they need to demonstrate a certain level of consistency, but that's still quite different from what's required to win the league over 38 matches.

So, where do we currently stand?
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We’re closer than most think we are. ETH is clearly a good cup manager and the level we saw today was basically the same level as the FA Cup final. So it wouldn’t be a stretch to believe a healthy United under ETH could make or even win a final, especially as he’s nearly gotten there before with a significantly lesser side.
 
We are as good as that Dortmund side so it's a weird thread. You can just have a good run, it's a cup.
 
To give a little context on this, we finished bottom in a group that had:

Bayern (finished 3rd behind Stuttgart this season)
Galatasray (knocked out by Sparta Prague as soon as they got relegated to EL)
Copenhagen (Brushed aside by City)

With our only one win in the group barely secured from a stoppage time penalty save.
 
Raoul said:
We’re closer than most think we are. ETH is clearly a good cup manager and the level we saw today was basically the same level as the FA Cup final. So it wouldn’t be a stretch to believe a healthy United under ETH could make or even win a final, especially as he’s nearly gotten there before with a significantly lesser side.
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You are vastly overrating the correlation between scraping by Coventry and a few FA cup teams and going through a CL group and knockout stages considering we literally came in last in our own group :lol:

Just watch the quality on display today in general passing, dribbling, defending. It's pretty obviously a level or two above anything we can come up with, even if we knicked a couple of goals to beat City in a one off game last weekend.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
You are vastly overrating the correlation between scraping by Coventry and a few FA cup teams and going through a CL group and knockout stages considering we literally came in last in our own group :lol:

Just watch the quality on display today in general passing, dribbling, defending. It's pretty obviously a level or two above anything we can come up with, even if we knicked a couple of goals to beat City in a one off game last weekend.
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Dortmund made the final, which undercuts everything you're saying (with two players on United's roster last year no less). Also, we just beat the reigning CL champs just a week ago, so clearly United are capable of beating the top teams in cup comps.
 
In theory we could always "fluke it" a la Chelsea with a favorable cup run and some good results along the way.

In reality though, we've just never been that kind of club. For whatever reason, we've always underperformed in Europe and only challenged for the title when in years when we were undoubtedly one of the best 2-3 sides in Europe.

So I can't see it happening for a very long time, unfortunately.
 
I know many have said that we finished 8th, and that us answer enough. For context, Dortmund finished 5th in the Bundesliga.

So it's kind of hard to answer this question, when Dortmund themselves have been nothing special for much of the season but managed to put together a cup run and had a lot of luck on their side. We also showed that anything can happen in the cup by beating City.

So the first question to answer really is how close are we to being in the CL to start with, in order to be in with a chance of putting a cup run together. I think with Klopp gone, only Arsenal and City are nailed on as clear favourites for 1 & 2. If we have a good summer window and have a clean bill of health next season, we have some really talented and young players that can get us into top 4.

As Dortmund have shown, once you're in the CL you always have a chance. But I suspect your question is more of a 'expecting to go toe to toe with the Madrid / Bayern / City's of this world on a consistent basis.

Probably another 2 or 3 seasons, and that's contingent on signing some real quality in CM and CB, while hoping the likes of Hojlund, Mainoo and Garnacho really start to fulfill their potential and become world beaters.

I always think in football you're never as far away as you think. If we signed a world class CB and CM this summer for arguments sake, I think we'd genuinely see exponential improvement in our performance levels. Top players in key positions can truly elevate a team, Suarez and Salah at Liverpool bring prime examples this past decade.
 
Raoul said:
Dortmund made the final, which undercuts everything you're saying (with two players on United's roster last year no less). Also, we just beat the reigning CL champs just a week ago, so clearly United are capable of beating the top teams in cup comps.
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Dortmund should have won their own league last year and has always consistently had a good system and quality players in the starting XI even if their league season this year was poor by their standards. And like I just said, beating City in a one off game with a bit of luck isn't the same as progressing through a CL group, then each of the knockout stages to get all of the way to a final. The closest we've even gotten in recent years (with teams far better than our current one), is a Quarter final where we have ended up overmatched pretty consistently.

Now I'm not saying we are 5+ years away. History suggests it really only takes 2 to 3 years of top decisions made in the market/manager/ players developing to completely transform a teams fortunes (which is why I don't like this theory that Ten Hag needs so much time and more and more money spend). I'm just pushing back on your theory that we aren't really far away with Dortmund as an example (a pretty clear outlier of recent UCL finalists and even then clearly a better performing team than what we are right now).
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Dortmund should have won their own league last year and has always consistently had a good system and quality players in the starting XI even if their league season this year was poor by their standards. And like I just said, beating City in a one off game with a bit of luck isn't the same as progressing through a CL group, then each of the knockout stages to get all of the way to a final. The closest we've even gotten in recent years (with teams far better than our current one), is a Quarter final where we have ended up overmatched pretty consistently.
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Dortmund aren't that good. Just look at their squad. They are well coached and punch above their collective weight, which is why they managed to reach the final. No one in their right mind would argue Dortmund have better players than United, especially given that they are having to play two United rejects this year.
 
Years away; years.

Not even in the competition next year, and as of today I'd have to say we're a long shot at being in it for 25/26 unless some major things happen this summer or the EPL starts getting 5 or 6 entrants perennially.
 
First step would be actually reaching the CL and stopping applauding managers after 0-4 loss to Palace and finishing 8th in the league.
 
Dortmund’s level wouldnt hard to reach. They’re an okay team. Challenging for the PL would be a bigger sign of progress.
 
Genuinely thought that our performance in FA Cup Final would give Madrid a much better fight than Dortmund.
 
We are two good transfer windows and an excellent manager away from challenging for the very top. Like we have been for the last XI years.

Our squad is not as bad as everyone thinks. We thought at the end of the 22-23 season that with a couple of good additions we would consolidate our position in the top 4, if not challenge for the title. Then the disaster of the 23-24 season came and now everyone besides 3-4 players are deadwood.

The same happened under Ole too, before the summer whenwe bought Ronaldo, Sancho and Varane we thought we'd go on and challenge for the league. Then the disaster of the season happened and everyone became a deadwood.

The same happened under other managers too. Our ability to turn good players into deadwood is almost magical.

If INEOS are really serious players (doesn't look like on evidence so far) then it shouldn't take that long to see us challenging again. We need to have some proper transfer windows & need to get a manager who can adapt to the rigors of PL football and we could be back sooner than everyone thinks.
 
They have the best player in the world. Vini is dangerous in EVERY game.
 
Depends how long we keep this pillock and if ineos can be better with dealing with big situations like this.
Whichever camp your in I think everyone will agree they've not handled this very well.
If everything goes OK I'd say 3 years max but until we sort out the issue in hand we have no idea and nowhere to start from.
 
Having a run and making it to the semis or something like that is not far at all. AC Milan did it last year and Dortmund this year and both are not great teams. Being consistently in the latter rounds over a period of 4 or 5 years like Real or City is a different matter. That requires having a really, really good team. It took Klopp 3 years to achieve that level and if Arsenal continue their upward trajectory, they should reach that level and in their case also, it will have been 4 or 5 years so I guess something within that ballpark.
 
9 out 10 times we would have lost against City in a FA Cup final. As much as our tactical organisation secured that win, I’d say we also had a bit of luck in that City were absolutely dire and Pep got his tactics all wrong.

Bottom line is, I wouldn’t be drawing parallels between beating City in the final to winning the CL.
 
DRJosh said:
9 out 10 times we would have lost against City in a FA Cup final. As much as our tactical organisation secured that win, I’d say we also had a bit of luck in that City were absolutely dire and Pep got his tactics all wrong.

Bottom line is, I wouldn’t be drawing parallels between beating City in the final to winning the CL.
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Especially as getting to the CL final would be significantly harder than barely beating Coventry in an one off game
 
Red Star One said:
Especially as getting to the CL final would be significantly harder than barely beating Coventry in an one off game
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Inter last year reached a CL final beating Porto, Benfica and AC Milan. I don't think that that's much harder than beating Liverpool if I am honest.
 
Raoul said:
Dortmund aren't that good. Just look at their squad. They are well coached and punch above their collective weight, which is why they managed to reach the final. No one in their right mind would argue Dortmund have better players than United, especially given that they are having to play two United rejects this year.
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Dortmund led its group that included PSG, AC Milan and Newcastle, then went on to beat Atletico and PSG, and dominated against Real in the final and was the deserving side.

There's no way United is qualifying from that group let alone beating Atletico, PSG, and Real.
 
Within the next decade. If PSG can get to a final then Utd can.
 
Theonas said:
Inter last year reached a CL final beating Porto, Benfica and AC Milan. I don't think that that's much harder than beating Liverpool if I am honest.
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Liverpool looks stronger on paper, but it’s hard to compare one off game against your injuries depleted local rivals that you know in an out in a significantly less prestigious tournament to two legged European ties.
 
Raoul said:
Dortmund made the final, which undercuts everything you're saying (with two players on United's roster last year no less). Also, we just beat the reigning CL champs just a week ago, so clearly United are capable of beating the top teams in cup comps.
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Yeah, but the CL apart from the finals requires 2 legs. That's how there is less randomness in the Copa Del Ray compared to the FA Cup. Don't get me wrong, I prefer the latter format, but this makes the CL more difficult.
 
heraklion said:
Dortmund led its group that included PSG, AC Milan and Newcastle, then went on to beat Atletico and PSG, and dominated against Real in the final and was the deserving side.

There's no way United is qualifying from that group let alone beating Atletico, PSG, and Real.
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We beat Liverpool and City to win the cup, so there’s no telling how we would’ve done. The idea that Dortmund are somehow vastly better than us is absurd, in fact I’m pretty sure the side that beat City last week would’ve fared just as good or better against Madrid than Dortmund did.
 
Raoul said:
We beat Liverpool and City to win the cup, so there’s no telling how we would’ve done. The idea that Dortmund are somehow vastly better than us is absurd, in fact I’m pretty sure the side that beat City last week would’ve fared just as good or better against Madrid than Dortmund did.
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We do know how we would've done because it actually happened. We were knocked out in the group stages.
 
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