City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

This first paragraph is a parody, right? Ironic at the very least.

You might respond to this part - your second paragraph dismisses the notion that clubs can catch up to United - you seem to think that this is a fantasy of United fans - but all published financial information disputes your view. You have stated previously that if your view is found to be incorrect you will acknowledge that - will you do so on this point? Or just shift the goalposts again?

I can’t shift the goalposts ‘again’ as I never shifted them previously. Though you may have misunderstood something I said. I don’t feel responsible for that though.

Yes, acknowledging when wrong applies to all and everything of course!
 
Ok then, let’s make it simple Nic….

• Can you accept that Manchester United pre-Abu Dhabi, were only the top spenders for 3 years of 16 since the league began, with Liverpool spending much more time at the top?

• Can you accept Tottenham absolutely and categorically have closed the revenue gap substantially on Manchester United in the past 15 years and have done so organically, even surpassing one of the former “Old guard” in their North London rivals?

1) i believe Utd spent more than slanting else between, in the period up to then city takeover. Obviously if you go all the way back to 1880 or something, that may not be the case.

EDIT, pressed send too soon.

2) ‘closed the gap’ means their revenue is now equal to or greater than yours. I’ve not seen anything that states that is the case, and I’ve seen a lot which directly contradicts that idea.
 
1) i believe Utd spent more than slanting else between, in the period up to then city takeover. Obviously if you go all the way back to 1880 or something, that may not be the case.

Eh?

I showed you the damn video yesterday that proves that absolutely wasn’t the case.

The Prem started in 92 and Liverpool/Blackburn spent the most until 99-00, then United took top spot with Liverpool close behind (hardly surprising as we’d just had the most successful spell in our history) and in 2003 Chelsea took over until City came in 2008.

How many times do people need to tell you this man? A few more hundred?

Conveniently ignored question 2 I see.
 
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[/QUOTE
And Chelsea….

DFML24-Website-Graphics-v8-3.jpg

Nic keeps ignoring this though and repeating that no club could possibly close the gap on the old guard organically.

And now imagine Spurs revenue without Abu Dhabi in the league, aren’t they about to miss out on CL football once again due to the Abu Dhabi project having a permanent place in the top 4?

The gap is still very much there, it’s not been closed.
 
Eh?

I showed you the damn video yesterday that proves that absolutely wasn’t the case.

The Prem started in 92 and Liverpool/Blackburn spent the most until 99-00, then United took top spot with Liverpool close behind (hardly surprising as we’d just had the most successful spell in our history) and in 2003 Chelsea took over until City came in 2008.

How many times do people need to tell you this man? A few more hundred?

Conveniently ignored question 2 I see.

You are so ridiculously keen to score points. It’s in the edit, man! Jesus Christ.
 
2) ‘closed the gap’ means their revenue is now equal to or greater than yours.

English is your second language?

To reduce or eliminate some disparity or imbalance between two people, things, groups, etc.

The former champions were ahead by 21 points at halftime, but the underdogs have been steadily closing the gap.

This initiative is meant to help close the gap between independent, locally owned businesses and giant megacorporations.
 
Eh?

I showed you the damn video yesterday that proves that absolutely wasn’t the case.

The Prem started in 92 and Liverpool/Blackburn spent the most until 99-00, then United took top spot with Liverpool close behind (hardly surprising as we’d just had the most successful spell in our history) and in 2003 Chelsea took over until City came in 2008.

How many times do people need to tell you this man? A few more hundred?

Conveniently ignored question 2 I see.
I've used my demi-godly powers* to give this post a Like. Not because the post itself is Like worthy but because you have the patience of a fecking Saint still trying to debate with someone who is clearly a City fan pretending they're not.

*They're not powers, they're a curse. You've got to give likes to newbie posts within three seconds otherwise Cheimoon gets there first, and the reward for this is the power authority equivalent of the piss dribbling from Invictus' impressively engorged, monacled knob after a dozen shakes. There's nothing. No power whatsoever. Someone could tell me to eat shit and the Staff members would tell me to stop being a little bitch in the mod chat if I complained about it. Solius stole my lunch and the rest of them just laughed. Even Niall.
 
2) ‘closed the gap’ means their revenue is now equal to or greater than yours. I’ve not seen anything that states that is the case, and I’ve seen a lot which directly contradicts that idea.
Arguing semantics to avoid the actual point. The phrase means that it is reducing the deficit.

Spurs have reduced the financial deficit with United and overtaken old money without state ownership. Do you agree with that?

Do you also agree that if City didn’t become state owned Spurs would be in a better place now (may have kept some key players, qualified for more UCLs)?
 
weyyy, another witty response.

I hope no one ever asks you to close the door on an aeroplane.

If the cabin crew say to you, can you please stop wumming on your mobile at RedCafe Sir, you’re causing a queue behind so we’d appreciate it if you can you please close the gap to the passenger ahead of you.

Don’t go and steamroll the guy/girl ahead of you down the aisle, that’s not what they mean.
 
I've used my demi-godly powers* to give this post a Like. Not because the post itself is Like worthy but because you have the patience of a fecking Saint still trying to debate with someone who is clearly a City fan pretending they're not.

*They're not powers, they're a curse. You've got to give likes to newbie posts within three seconds otherwise Cheimoon gets there first, and the reward for this is the power authority equivalent of the piss dribbling from Invictus' impressively engorged, monacled knob after a dozen shakes. There's nothing. No power whatsoever. Someone could tell me to eat shit and the Staff members would tell me to stop being a little bitch in the mod chat if I complained about it. Solius stole my lunch and the rest of them just laughed. Even Niall.

Aye, it really is the only logical explanation
 
Arguing semantics to avoid the actual point. The phrase means that it is reducing the deficit.

Spurs have reduced the financial deficit with United and overtaken old money without state ownership. Do you agree with that?

Eh? I said no teams could catch Utd financially. He now seems to be saying that he’s proved me wrong because Spurs got closer! And you think the semantic quibbling is coming from me?! You simply cannot have that little a grasp in language.
 
If the cabin crew say to you, can you please stop wumming on your mobile at RedCafe Sir, you’re causing a queue behind so we’d appreciate it if you can you please close the gap to the passenger ahead of you.

Don’t go and steamroll the guy/girl ahead of you down the aisle, that’s not what they mean.

I’d catch up with them though. I wouldn’t walk 2 feet forward and say ‘look I’ve done it”!
 
I've used my demi-godly powers* to give this post a Like. Not because the post itself is Like worthy but because you have the patience of a fecking Saint still trying to debate with someone who is clearly a City fan pretending they're not.

*They're not powers, they're a curse. You've got to give likes to newbie posts within three seconds otherwise Cheimoon gets there first, and the reward for this is the power authority equivalent of the piss dribbling from Invictus' impressively engorged, monacled knob after a dozen shakes. There's nothing. No power whatsoever. Someone could tell me to eat shit and the Staff members would tell me to stop being a little bitch in the mod chat if I complained about it. Solius stole my lunch and the rest of them just laughed. Even Niall.

I didn’t even watch the City game, if I had a second team it would be Arsenal as I lived there for 15 years. But don’t let that get in the way of a good assumption!
 
I’d catch up with them though. I wouldn’t walk 2 feet forward and say ‘look I’ve done it”!

Ah so silly beggars it is, I don’t believe you’re honesty this unintelligent, not a chance.

In 2009 Spurs revenue was 44.8% of Manchester United’s.

In 2024 it’s now 84.67% of United’s.

Next year they’d get even closer if they got CL, because we certainly won’t, but alas, the Abu Dhabi football project has scuppered that one for them again.

If you close the 10 meter gap on the plane with 85% I think that’ll do pal. You don’t need to bum the person in front.
 
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Eh? I said no teams could catch Utd financially. He now seems to be saying that he’s proved me wrong because Spurs got closer! And you think the semantic quibbling is coming from me?! You simply cannot have that little a grasp in language.
Because no one has done it in this country it doesn’t mean it’s impossible now does it? As pointed out Spurs are very close to United now and have done it in a pretty organic way.

Can you answer my two questions you ignored.

Spurs have reduced the financial deficit with United and overtaken old money without state ownership. Do you agree with that?

Do you also agree that if City didn’t become state owned Spurs would be in a better place now (may have kept some key players, qualified for more UCLs)?

Bonus one… if teams have 0 chance of catching united financial power then what hope do they have to now catch city’s?
 
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Because no one has done it in this country it doesn’t mean it’s impossible now does it? As pointed out Spurs are very close to United now and have done it in a pretty organic way.

It’s another absolutely ludicrous argument even if true, because even if the best Spurs can do is get to 85% of United’s revenue and Liverpool to 99% as in 2022:

cropped-DFML22-Info.jpg


How close can any team get to the revenue of Abu fecking Dhabi? 0.1% ?

If I’m Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal, Villa or Everton, I know where I’d prefer my chances.
 
He’s had this pointed out to him a tonne of times, but just completely ignores it.

He does exactly the same when talking about United not wanting anyone to challenge their spending power, it gets pointed out to him continuously that pre Abu Dhabi United’s spending power was constantly challenged and they had only a bunch of seasons after the treble in which they were top dog.

The fact he continues to ignore this yet engages daily by repeating his points that were proven incorrect the previous day, tells you all you need to know about why he’s actually in this thread and it aint for genuine discussion.
Yeah pretty clear on the wum. But weird if they are a City fan given they were on here when their team was playing. Again ducked my question and I see keeps ducking the same from others.

That, or is genuinely terrible at maths.
 
Yeah pretty clear on the wum. But weird if they are a City fan given they were on here when their team was playing. Again ducked my question and I see keeps ducking the same from others.

That, or is genuinely terrible at maths.
Actually if you check their activity, they have been active for many days recently during the hours of 7-10 except tonight where they were quiet up until extra time. "I didn't even watch the game" are some great words but actions speak louder.

Since they were keen to deflect earlier, and one of the chosen deflections was about their eight year old kid, I'll go with this point; I've raised four kids and I can spot bullshit a mile off.

Or maybe I'm way off. Maybe this person who has been pro City, anti United their entire time on the forum is merely a coincidence. They support Ipswich, after all. Like all those premier league referees who all magically support a lower league team.
 
Whats the purpose of Grealish anyway? Yeah, he is alright, but a 100 mill player you expect more than draw fouls and recycle possession.
 
Spurs have recruited and sold some of the best players in the world. In fact any time a player is truly outstanding they eventually leave for a bigger club with the exception of Son up to now. Spurs could have held onto a few of those players and tried for a final push to win stuff but they have been patiently building something sustainable instead of chasing instant success. It’s not much fun as a fan but we haven’t been much fun either. They are kind of like a PL Dortmund model and they will keep slowly going in the same direction. They have bought a lot of duds but have also developed plenty of better players than we’ve had here during the same time
 
City are purchased by Abu Dhabi in September 2008. Manchester City placed 9th the season prior. Abu Dhabi get to work buying players who wouldn't otherwise even look in City's direction. 9th place in 2007/'08 becomes 8th place in 2008/'09; the initial steps of the process take a while to bed in, as the old is replaced with the new. City's first big leap takes place the next season with 8th place bested by three positions. They finish the 2009/'10 season in 5th position. We're now in 2010/'11 and City have sacked Hughes and got their first big name coach in Roberto Mancini. They finish 3rd that season and are now a Champions League club. They've been a perennial fixture in the CL places ever since.

There are no cyclic ups or downs, no consequence for poor purchases where normal clubs are lumped with players whose value plummets who they then cannot get off their books because they cannot afford to pay up their contracts willy-nilly and no other club will take them on without subsidy. There is no fear or regard for any of the recognised norms clubs who are not state-owned are hamstrung by. City are a guaranteed lock for a CL place, thus taking it away from any legitimate contender who is then vying with the remainder for 'a go'. The established Old Order are hurt by this, but the remainder are absolutely crushed by it because they have to have more luck than ever before, or take on more financial risk than ever before to try and break this new status quo.

Meanwhile, of the Old Order, not one of them has been a lock in the CL positions as a perennial fixture since 2009/'10

Manchester United have missed out on the CL 5, going on 6 times (once this season concludes).

Liverpool have missed out on the CL 6 times.

Chelsea have missed out on the CL 4, going on 5 times (once this season concludes).

Arsenal have missed out on the CL 6 times.

This is the Old Order, look how many times these so-called behemoths have failed to qualify for the Champions League since City became an indubitable fixture in the competition. Whether you wish to count Chelsea or not, the point remains - Chelsea are more an example of a club with no hope forcing themselves into the conversation, but not overstepping the mark to the point they have broken football.

Now, as stated by numerous people and their painstaking efforts to make clear how damaging what City are doing is, it's not the clubs above who are the most put out by City, it's the teams below them who, without City's permanency would have had a chance to make their play for the top table. Spurs are going to have been the biggest fall guys, but now it's also the likes of Villa as they try and push through the glass ceiling to compete directly with the teams above (and not City).

There is no time in English football history where Old Orders (they used to be dynamic: Wolves, for example, used to be a big dog up to the conclusion of the 1950's) as there have been - or supposedly established - where those teams remained, perennially, at the helm. In fact, most are defined by golden periods followed by fallow times where they cannot compete for the league nor CL (or previously, the European Cup).

Great periods for these sides are attributed to great men doing unbelievably shrewd work within a financial remit that whilst at the higher end, was not obliterating those around them - the clubs ebbed and flowed with the passage of these managers. City are a faceless state, as @Regulus Arcturus Black stated, there is no way for them to fail because they will always have the best in class, will always replace the best with the best and there will never be a lull due to financial instability or uncertainty. In other words, completely and utterly artificial conditions, especially when contrasted with what history has told us about every one of the Old Order, who all, to a club, could/did/have slumped and have had to re-establish themselves once more years down the line.

It's clear that what some see as "Manchester United" is actually an infernal loathing of Alex Ferguson and the brilliance he ushered into the club, which immediately lost its way without him at the top. In the following 10 years, the cluelessness, and more importantly, the consequences of that cluelessness, have not only seen Manchester United fall back into the pack, but for most of the time, be behind them by some distance. The exact same thing befell Liverpool when Dalglish handed over to Souness and sent them flailing, not only off the top spot, but to be out of the running for the title for years. In very short order, both clubs went from halcyon periods with great players to an exodus and squads and managers who hadn't a prayer. This is how the Old Order works and what their pitfalls are. One or two bad managerial hires and they can fall like a house of cards because consequence for poor decisions then comes back to haunt them as a debt that needs paying in full. These old clubs don't just get to wipe the slate clean each season and go again with a brand new set of players if the bad buys don't work out. They are lumped with them and the general bar for the side will steadily diminish. Arsenal experienced exactly the same thing once Wenger stopped shitting gold. The stadium didn't help, but it wasn't their downfall, but it highlights another point and consequence: the either, or. By pouring money into the new stadium, they were going to be hamstrung for years. A conscious decision made to better their stadium meant less money could be pumped into the team, and anyone coming to manage them had to accept that. At City? Nope, we'll redevelop a portion of the city - yes, the literal city - whilst still hiring best in class across all facets on off and the pitch with no fallout whatsoever. Hmm... clearly the same playing field as what everyone else is uuming and ahhing from.

The worst thing of all is City didn't have to cheat as a state is going to be Borg-like in its assimilation by its very nature. It cannot be anything else, which is why it has no place in football, but that's besides the point as this is about cheating to achieve ends as hurriedly and as artificially as one can imagine.

As much as the Old Order could be despised by those who were not part of it, they were not infinite or unmovable. Every single one of them had sizeable lulls multiple times in their histories and provided opportunities for others to take their slice of the pie should they be so fortunate to go upwind at the time of a boon for the game. We'll never know what would have happened without City in the picture, but history tells us, quite clearly, that even the biggest of English clubs has never been too big to not fail, until now. With Ferguson's retirement, there was no guarantee status quo would have remained, but unlike in the past, where new players could gobble up space, things quickly became established in this new, most broken order where the winningest team's biggest concerns are in how to hide their wrongdoing. The footballing side of things, a total formality due to them having no consequences for anything that goes wrong.
Well said.
 
Ha ha, “proven incorrect”. I know you want a monopoly on the truth, but it’s not yours to give. I’ve no idea what you think I’ve ignored but I reply to a ridiculous amount of messages on here. I’m sure I’ve missed some, and I’m sure I’ll continue to do so. At some point you’re just going to have to accept that without being flouncy. I fully accept that for your narrative to work I have to be some troll who is deliberately avoiding questions that you consider definitive. You can continue to push that narrative but it won’t make it any more true: I tell you what, I’ll have a trawl back through your multiple posts tomorrow and do my best to answer every one. Would that help you to acknowledge that I’m not trying to ignore you?
:lol:
 
I can’t shift the goalposts ‘again’ as I never shifted them previously. Though you may have misunderstood something I said. I don’t feel responsible for that though.

Yes, acknowledging when wrong applies to all and everything of course!
:boring:
 
Well that was lovely, terrible group of supporters would drive the game into the ground just to be number one.

Lack of self awareness is criminal.
 
City are purchased by Abu Dhabi in September 2008. Manchester City placed 9th the season prior. Abu Dhabi get to work buying players who wouldn't otherwise even look in City's direction. 9th place in 2007/'08 becomes 8th place in 2008/'09; the initial steps of the process take a while to bed in, as the old is replaced with the new. City's first big leap takes place the next season with 8th place bested by three positions. They finish the 2009/'10 season in 5th position. We're now in 2010/'11 and City have sacked Hughes and got their first big name coach in Roberto Mancini. They finish 3rd that season and are now a Champions League club. They've been a perennial fixture in the CL places ever since.

There are no cyclic ups or downs, no consequence for poor purchases where normal clubs are lumped with players whose value plummets who they then cannot get off their books because they cannot afford to pay up their contracts willy-nilly and no other club will take them on without subsidy. There is no fear or regard for any of the recognised norms clubs who are not state-owned are hamstrung by. City are a guaranteed lock for a CL place, thus taking it away from any legitimate contender who is then vying with the remainder for 'a go'. The established Old Order are hurt by this, but the remainder are absolutely crushed by it because they have to have more luck than ever before, or take on more financial risk than ever before to try and break this new status quo.

Meanwhile, of the Old Order, not one of them has been a lock in the CL positions as a perennial fixture since 2009/'10

Manchester United have missed out on the CL 5, going on 6 times (once this season concludes).

Liverpool have missed out on the CL 6 times.

Chelsea have missed out on the CL 4, going on 5 times (once this season concludes).

Arsenal have missed out on the CL 6 times.

This is the Old Order, look how many times these so-called behemoths have failed to qualify for the Champions League since City became an indubitable fixture in the competition. Whether you wish to count Chelsea or not, the point remains - Chelsea are more an example of a club with no hope forcing themselves into the conversation, but not overstepping the mark to the point they have broken football.

Now, as stated by numerous people and their painstaking efforts to make clear how damaging what City are doing is, it's not the clubs above who are the most put out by City, it's the teams below them who, without City's permanency would have had a chance to make their play for the top table. Spurs are going to have been the biggest fall guys, but now it's also the likes of Villa as they try and push through the glass ceiling to compete directly with the teams above (and not City).

There is no time in English football history where Old Orders (they used to be dynamic: Wolves, for example, used to be a big dog up to the conclusion of the 1950's) as there have been - or supposedly established - where those teams remained, perennially, at the helm. In fact, most are defined by golden periods followed by fallow times where they cannot compete for the league nor CL (or previously, the European Cup).

Great periods for these sides are attributed to great men doing unbelievably shrewd work within a financial remit that whilst at the higher end, was not obliterating those around them - the clubs ebbed and flowed with the passage of these managers. City are a faceless state, as @Regulus Arcturus Black stated, there is no way for them to fail because they will always have the best in class, will always replace the best with the best and there will never be a lull due to financial instability or uncertainty. In other words, completely and utterly artificial conditions, especially when contrasted with what history has told us about every one of the Old Order, who all, to a club, could/did/have slumped and have had to re-establish themselves once more years down the line.

It's clear that what some see as "Manchester United" is actually an infernal loathing of Alex Ferguson and the brilliance he ushered into the club, which immediately lost its way without him at the top. In the following 10 years, the cluelessness, and more importantly, the consequences of that cluelessness, have not only seen Manchester United fall back into the pack, but for most of the time, be behind them by some distance. The exact same thing befell Liverpool when Dalglish handed over to Souness and sent them flailing, not only off the top spot, but to be out of the running for the title for years. In very short order, both clubs went from halcyon periods with great players to an exodus and squads and managers who hadn't a prayer. This is how the Old Order works and what their pitfalls are. One or two bad managerial hires and they can fall like a house of cards because consequence for poor decisions then comes back to haunt them as a debt that needs paying in full. These old clubs don't just get to wipe the slate clean each season and go again with a brand new set of players if the bad buys don't work out. They are lumped with them and the general bar for the side will steadily diminish. Arsenal experienced exactly the same thing once Wenger stopped shitting gold. The stadium didn't help, but it wasn't their downfall, but it highlights another point and consequence: the either, or. By pouring money into the new stadium, they were going to be hamstrung for years. A conscious decision made to better their stadium meant less money could be pumped into the team, and anyone coming to manage them had to accept that. At City? Nope, we'll redevelop a portion of the city - yes, the literal city - whilst still hiring best in class across all facets on off and the pitch with no fallout whatsoever. Hmm... clearly the same playing field as what everyone else is uuming and ahhing from.

The worst thing of all is City didn't have to cheat as a state is going to be Borg-like in its assimilation by its very nature. It cannot be anything else, which is why it has no place in football, but that's besides the point as this is about cheating to achieve ends as hurriedly and as artificially as one can imagine.

As much as the Old Order could be despised by those who were not part of it, they were not infinite or unmovable. Every single one of them had sizeable lulls multiple times in their histories and provided opportunities for others to take their slice of the pie should they be so fortunate to go upwind at the time of a boon for the game. We'll never know what would have happened without City in the picture, but history tells us, quite clearly, that even the biggest of English clubs has never been too big to not fail, until now. With Ferguson's retirement, there was no guarantee status quo would have remained, but unlike in the past, where new players could gobble up space, things quickly became established in this new, most broken order where the winningest team's biggest concerns are in how to hide their wrongdoing. The footballing side of things, a total formality due to them having no consequences for anything that goes wrong.

Wonderful post.
 
Still no word from the 'netural' about the fact that City signed up to rules, then systematically broke those rules, lied about breaking them and now desperately trying to leverage the government to get them out of accountability for the violations.

This isn't a hard concept. FFP is not on trial here. Think of it like a speed limit in a perfectly safe, emtpy area with no schools. There very much is an argument the speed limit is not correct, but that doesn't matter if you get caught speeding.
 
Have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about in fairness.

Just a small game that happened yesterday.

long gave up trying to argue with their fans as stated cold hard evidence is ignored and they would happily run the sport into the ground to stay at the top.

I have no time for such a group of people.
 
If you think I’ve ‘shifted the goalposts’ then that’s genuinely a reflection on your comprehension. I know my own view and I’ve thought the same consistently. Sorry it doesn’t make sense to you.

Also, sorry to the peeps who wrote War and Peace earlier, I’ll have a look tomorrow when I’m not arguing with an 8 year old about basic hygiene.
Oi, I'm not 8 years old. Low blow.
 
You don’t think that if you give these unlimited oil money to someone like Klopp, he probably wins everything as well?

How much of it is really Pep?
Quite significantly with pep imo. City may have a competent structure behind the scenes but ultimately its the manager ability to extract the best out of great and average players that does the trick. He's a level above klopp. Yes he's had loads of money to spend but that comes with added pressure doesn't it..and he's delivered everywhere. Klopp and United have also spent a fortune.

I can't wait till he leaves. I genuinely think we would indirectly benefit psychologically knowing he's not around. He's been our nemesis and usually gets the better of us.