City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

[adexkola]

Am i right in thinking that everything post 2018 is ok for City and that it's just the 'creative accounting' before that that enabled them to get where they are that's the serious issue here?

No, they face charges of refusing to hand over material after 2018

I doubt they have much violations in this period though, their injections have worked and they're self sufficient

Doesn't FIFA have very strict rules regarding governments interfering with national football associations?

If they do get involved England could be banned from International football.

Yes. So if the government tries to exert influence backdoors, all it takes is a whistleblower to get FIFA involved and have the government lean back, lean back

 

[Roboc7]

I can’t see them being punished significantly. City will not accept it and there is a balancing act between trying to make them comply (as much as possible) to FFP rules and the threat of them legally challenging existence of FFP which is inevitable at some stage.

Even if the did get relegated the damage is done now, they’d be straight back up and nothing would change.

 

[Spark]

I can’t see them being punished significantly. City will not accept it and there is a balancing act between trying to make them comply (as much as possible) to FFP rules and the threat of them legally challenging existence of FFP which is inevitable at some stage.

Even if the did get relegated the damage is done now, they’d be straight back up and nothing would change.

They need to do a Rangers, but worse, and dish them in the Isthmian league. But yes, you're right, feck all gonna happen.

 

[Fortitude]

No, they face charges of refusing to hand over material after 2018

I doubt they have much violations in this period though, their injections have worked and they're self sufficient

Sometimes I swear you're trolling for your own amusement! There's no way, no way at all you believe that!

 

[jasT1981]

More for them to answer


https://www.skysports.com/football/...njamin-mendy-suing-man-city-over-unpaid-wages

 

[adexkola]

Sometimes I swear you're trolling for your own amusement! There's no way, no way at all you believe that!

I swear I'm not

It's not implausible. Then again, I don't think revenue is tightly tied to how many core fans you had worldwide from the 80s and 90s. If you win trophies for a decade in the world's most popular league, feature in that league's most prominent games, and are recent European champions... Then that's a lot of potential for revenue pouring in (sponsors and prize money).

There are reports that United's revenue streams are starting to flag because of the lack of success. If success had no impact on revenues then why bother on what we win today?

Are City breaking rules post 2018? Possibly. Do they need to? Post 2018? I doubt it

 

[Fortitude]

I swear I'm not

It's not implausible. Then again, I don't think revenue is tightly tied to how many core fans you had worldwide from the 80s and 90s. If you win trophies for a decade in the world's most popular league, feature in that league's most prominent games, and are recent European champions... Then that's a lot of potential for revenue pouring in (sponsors and prize money).

There are reports that United's revenue streams are starting to flag because of the lack of success. If success had no impact on revenues then why bother on what we win today?

Are City breaking rules post 2018? Possibly. Do they need to? Post 2018? I doubt it

If you're talking about legitimate sponsors and wages in their entirety... I would be amazed. City would have little reason to obfuscate at the point of legitimacy and it's harmful for them to not disclose because it immediately lends thought to them still having things to hide with the only question revolving around: to what degree?

Let's assume I'm a conspiracy nut and have painted City with undue broad strokes, and they're not cooking anything and all wages are above board *deep breath * they would still have some way to go to match the fanbase and prestige of the longstanding giants and their plethora of revenue streams, but I would say they are some way to getting there now.

I'll also offer a bit of anecdotal evidence that I've been to quite a few places across the world the last few years and have seen City tops in abundance in very far flung places. Too many for comfort. So yeah, there's no doubt in my own mind that they are establishing themselves as the go to team for a new generation of fans seeking the shiniest, slickest team, but it still doesn't add up; even expedited, you don't become a world force - claiming market space from others - in the way City claim they have in such a short period of time. It'd be more believable from a Leeds or Newcastle with their fanatical following and more notable history and even then, it'd be fanciful. What would create the kind of paradigm shift we're to believe has occurred is a run of CL wins and a Messi or C.Ronaldo level signing, as those fans follow the player no matter where they play (I've seen an absurd number of C.Ronaldo adorned Saudi league tops and pink Messi tops, too) and they are huge in number, but there's no such thing available and the closest to it was Neymar, who just checked out of mainstream football.

 

[Eugenius]

Can someone update me on what is actually happening here? Is there new evidence or news, or just more attention after Everton?

 

[Wrecking ralf]

The only fair punishment needs to be the removal of the type of ownership they have. Football was ruined when Chelsea and then City got those free billions and everyone had struggled to keep up ever since. Now Newcastle have gone the same route. You can’t even buy a club the way the Glazers took over us and we haven’t exactly profited from that. Remove the owners, remove the titles and remove any way of taking over a club in that way and bladdering daft amounts on players then maybe football can start getting back to how it was. FIFA and UEFA themselves should really introduce a blanket cap on transfers and wages but they’re more corrupt than anyone so that won’t happen. Nice to dream of the game being about football again though rather than money.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

If they do not receive significant, game changing punishment, then not sure why the Prem would not turn in the the 'wild west'. Might as well go nuts Ratcliffe, push every boundary. F it.

 

[Bosws87]

The only fair punishment needs to be the removal of the type of ownership they have. Football was ruined when Chelsea and then City got those free billions and everyone had struggled to keep up ever since. Now Newcastle have gone the same route. You can’t even buy a club the way the Glazers took over us and we haven’t exactly profited from that. Remove the owners, remove the titles and remove any way of taking over a club in that way and bladdering daft amounts on players then maybe football can start getting back to how it was. FIFA and UEFA themselves should really introduce a blanket cap on transfers and wages but they’re more corrupt than anyone so that won’t happen. Nice to dream of the game being about football again though rather than money.

The problem is these people sit on those boards they have made a giant mess.

 

[The Purley King]

If success had no impact on revenues then why bother on what we win today?

Spoken like a true glazer
I’d say that right now there probably isn’t too much dodgy going on, just because due to the artificially inflated sponsorship deals and more historic cheating they don’t have to as much.
Is it absolutely zero? Doubtful

 

[Fortitude]

Spoken like a true glazer
I’d say that right now there probably isn’t too much dodgy going on, just because due to the artificially inflated sponsorship deals and more historic cheating they don’t have to as much.
Is it absolutely zero? Doubtful

 

[RedRocket9908]

Redbird IMI is technically separate from Redbird Capital Partners. This is one of the reasons I’m not sure you can ever really stop this kind of thing, but you can mitigate it.

Redbird IMI isnt seperate it is effectively a division of Redbird Capital Partners.

If Redbird IMI succeed in taking charge of The Telegraph and The Spectator will those be barred from publishing anything negative about City and be used to push out stories that defend them?

 

[lysglimt]

We've already seen City get away with a slap on the wrist for their UEFA charges. I really don't think anything substantial will come of it, unfortunately. They've got too much money behind them to fight it and I don't really trust the Premier League to be strong enough on a decision which could be seen to damage the quality of their own product.

I think we're already past the point of no return, personally. A blind eye has been turned to the likes of City and Chelsea for 20 years in the name of competition. The fact that the Saudis were allowed to buy Newcastle doesn't make me think any meaningful change is on the horizon. Football is entirely dictated by money, you only have to look at which nations are hosting World Cups these days to see that.

That is different - the UEFA couldn't charge them for the majority of the 115 charges they now are facing.

 

[The Purley King]

They’ve arrived now.
Not as much need to cook the books as there was before. Granted the sponsorships are an ongoing joke but seems the ship has already sailed on that one. Probable they have toned down the shady payments , if I was them that is what I’d do.
Like the serial bank robber who turns “legit” in later years…….

 

[lysglimt]

Let’s say they get punted to League 1, you don’t reckon some of those players would stay for, say, double or quadruple what they’re currently on? I think the age of the player would play a factor, personally: very young or old, and they’d do two years, but in their prime years, it’s a bigger ask and sell. A player like Haaland would be acme acres gone like a puff of smoke, I think, but others? They’d have a lot more to think about and evaluate.

Waste 2 years in League 1 and the Championships, no European football - probably not being picked for their national team - these are world-class players - why would they want to do that ?

 

[SAF is the GOAT]

Rio with the banter

 

[Baxquux]

More for them to answer


https://www.skysports.com/football/...njamin-mendy-suing-man-city-over-unpaid-wages

Why would they short-change a player over relative pennies given the billions upon billions from which they're drawing? If it's an accounting/wage-bill issue, I'm sure they could come up with a 'creative' solution, rather than looking cheap...

 

[Sandikan]

If man City and Chelsea get off Scott free and by Scott free I mean a easily payable heavy fine and a silly points deduction, then it will be pointless following the premier league as it will be clearly massively corrupt and lose all credibility as a league

If City did get away with next to no punishment, you could see it being the catalyst to properly see a break away league. Be it the European super league, or a revamped prem.

Real Madrid for one will already me manoeuvring behind the scenes I'm sure.

 

[MrMarcello]

No, they face charges of refusing to hand over material after 2018

I doubt they have much violations in this period though, their injections have worked and they're self sufficient

Then why not oblige with requests?

 

[Fortitude]

They’ve arrived now.
Not as much need to cook the books as there was before. Granted the sponsorships are an ongoing joke but seems the ship has already sailed on that one. Probable they have toned down the shady payments , if I was them that is what I’d do.
Like the serial bank robber who turns “legit” in later years…….

Yeah, I don't think they're there yet. You don't get there for a few domestic titles and a single CL. You need at least an international legacy to massively expedite such a process.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Redbird IMI isnt seperate it is effectively a division of Redbird Capital Partners.

If Redbird IMI succeed in taking charge of The Telegraph and The Spectator will those be barred from publishing anything negative about City and be used to push out stories that defend them?

It's factually not, but, ok. Hence why they have done it, it will function as its own entity, entirely separate from any of the backers other funds.

As said previously, this is an issue I don't think is solvable in private capital.

 

[Taribo's Gap]

Then why not oblige with requests?

Conceptually, for the same reasons people safeguard rights against unreasonable searches from governments and otherwise resist unwanted intrusions. They will also claim (1.) they have business proprietary information that they want to protect and (2.) they are suspicious of leaks.

I don't believe the PL have charged them for anything beyond the 2018 time period.

 

[Fortitude]

Waste 2 years in League 1 and the Championships, no European football - probably not being picked for their national team - these are world-class players - why would they want to do that ?

For Saudi-level bumps in the money coming their way, and only the players at either end of the career spectrum, I'd say, those who can afford the loss (young), or who have already had the majority of their career and are on to their last big pay day (old and better than uprooting their family etc. If they'd rather stay where they are).

 

[sebsheep]

Wake me up when something actually happens

That's going to be a long sleep!

 

[The Purley King]

Yeah, I don't think they're there yet. You don't get there for a few domestic titles and a single CL. You need at least an international legacy to massively expedite such a process.

I dunno for older fans certainly not but for younger fans I fear the die is already cast.
They’ve won more trophies than any other English team in the last 10? years. They’ve won a treble.
I’d say they were pretty well established and with the constant source of dodgy sponsorships that seemingly nobody can prove are dodgy they’ll be here for good, all off the back of extreme cheating.
Only way to rectify that is to expel them from the PL for an extended period of time.
As I’ve said before, despite it being the correct punishment it probably won’t be administered

 

[lysglimt]

For Saudi-level bumps in the money coming their way, and only the players at either end of the career spectrum, I'd say, those who can afford the loss (young), or who have already had the majority of their career and are on to their last big pay day (old and better than uprooting their family etc. If they'd rather stay where they are).

the Saudi league is not a comparison because they give average players 2-3 times wages than the best clubs in the P.L. The majority of City's players would be wanted by top-10 clubs - and would get almost the same wages as they have today. Another issue - if City get relegated to League 1 their finances would be shot, and they would have no chance of passing FFP when they get promoted to the P.L unless they offload their highest earners.

 

[Fortitude]

I dunno for older fans certainly not but for younger fans I fear the die is already cast.
They’ve won more trophies than any other English team in the last 10? years. They’ve won a treble.
I’d say they were pretty well established and with the constant source of dodgy sponsorships that seemingly nobody can prove are dodgy they’ll be here for good, all off the back of extreme cheating.
Only way to rectify that is to expel them from the PL for an extended period of time.
As I’ve said before, despite it being the correct punishment it probably won’t be administered

They can’t even sell out their stadium, even now, as masters of the universe. That’s literally unheard of for the true giants at the peak of their successes. Think of any one of them: United, Madrid, Barcelona, Liverpool, Bayern, Milan, Juventus. At the height of their success they had all the fanfare that is supposed to accompany it. They could sell out their ground 1.5* over and they were the hottest ticket in town. That’s just not City, and in the digital realm, it’s still not them. Do I believe they’re getting there? Yes, but they just aren’t what they purport to be as of yet and they would need iconic players to become so in such short, unspectacular period of time.

The crooked everything else is what they are putting on front street to legitimise themselves and their supposed standing in the game, that few are buying for a second.

 

[Fortitude]

the Saudi league is not a comparison because they give average players 2-3 times wages than the best clubs in the P.L. The majority of City's players would be wanted by top-10 clubs - and would get almost the same wages as they have today. Another issue - if City get relegated to League 1 their finances would be shot, and they would have no chance of passing FFP when they get promoted to the P.L unless they offload their highest earners.

My proviso was them continuing to cheat, in which case they would have to pay way, way more than they do or what those players could get elsewhere to keep them there.

 

[Taribo's Gap]

They can’t even sell out their stadium, even now, as masters of the universe. That’s literally unheard of for the true giants at the peak of their successes. Think of any one of them: United, Madrid, Barcelona, Liverpool, Bayern, Milan, Juventus. At the height of their success they had all the fanfare that is supposed to accompany it. They could sell out their ground 1.5* over and they were the hottest ticket in town. That’s just not City, and in the digital realm, it’s still not them. Do I believe they’re getting there? Yes, but they just aren’t what they purport to be as of yet and they would need iconic players to become so in such short, unspectacular period of time.

The crooked everything else is what they are putting on front street to legitimise themselves and their supposed standing in the game, that few are buying for a second.

So is MEN just making this up or are City somehow manipulating it? I guess you can technically sell out on paper or for reporting purposes and still have a crap atmosphere. Pep has definitely commented on the atmosphere more than once, but I don't recall if he has this season.

For what it's worth, City and Chelsea have the lowest reported matchday revenue figures (in absolute terms and as a percentage of overall revenue) of the Big 6 if that is any indication of the strength of their "real" fanbase, but some of that data may be skewed by availability of hospitality suites, pricing etc.

I think Bayern's reported revenue this year is bigger than what City is reporting.

 

[Fortitude]

So is MEN just making this up or are City somehow manipulating it? I guess you can technically sell out on paper or for reporting purposes and still have a crap atmosphere. Pep has definitely commented on the atmosphere more than once, but I don't recall if he has this season.

For what it's worth, City and Chelsea have the lowest reported matchday revenue figures (in absolute terms and as a percentage of overall revenue) of the Big 6 if that is any indication of the strength of their "real" fanbase, but some of that data may be skewed by availability of hospitality suites, pricing etc.

I think Bayern's reported revenue this year is bigger than what City is reporting.

Can't help but smirk at the headline. There's nothing wrong with the MEN reporting that, whether you believe it, or wonder if shenanigans are afoot is another story, however. We're in an age of misinformation with City and them trying to buy in it's only going to worsen. Even here, we're supposed to believe this has nothing to do with City. No sir!

They may have "sold out" the stadium, who to, and whether it's actually full of live, independent bodies, well...

Now, this might all be conjecture on my part, but I'll add that faking it until they make it and do have the demand they state, is the order of the day. I think we all know what the stadiums of giant clubs at their footballing apex look like. Absolute booming cauldrons.

 

[RedRocket9908]

So is MEN just making this up or are City somehow manipulating it?

That article says they sold out all available tickets rather than all tickets and doesnt mention anywhere how many tickets were actually made available.

 

[Taribo's Gap]

Can't help but smirk at the headline. There's nothing wrong with the MEN reporting that, whether you believe it, or wonder if shenanigans are afoot is another story, however. We're in an age of misinformation with City and them trying to buy in it's only going to worsen. Even here, we're supposed to believe this has nothing to do with City. No sir!

They may have "sold out" the stadium, who to, and whether it's actually full of live, independent bodies, well...

Now, this might all be conjecture on my part, but I'll add that faking it until they make it and do have the demand they state, is the order of the day. I think we all know what the stadiums of giant clubs at their footballing apex look like. Absolute booming cauldrons.

City had some of the best reported attendance in the Prem pre-takeover and Fede Valverde was recently interviewed and said The Etihad was the most difficult environment in which he has played. Is he a part of a misinformation campaign as well? There have been previous reports of a divergence between City's claimed attendance figures and actual attendance as reported by police figures from FOI requests, but this seems to be a pretty common practice for clubs. Manchester United has been accused of the same practice.

I can absolutely believe that City is up to some chicanery with reported ticket sale numbers, but there needs to be some evidence or basis for it. It's very common in the book industry, the music industry, with startups etc., so it's not out of the realm of possibility. But in a scenario where, when presented with evidence and reporting, people resort to whispers, innuendos and conjecture that comports with their priors or latch onto unfalsifiable or unprovable theories or alternative explanations, what really is the point of discussing? People should just believe what they want to believe.

 

[NotChatGPT]

My take on it is that it doesn’t really matter what they’ve done or what evidence there is, the end result is that this is essentially a case against the UAE, and they’ve spent insane amount of money to make sure they have people in power willing to do their bidding when they need it. UK politicians were concerned just by the thought of how it could damage relations with the Saudis if they weren’t allowed to buy Newcastle, to the point of lobbying to increase their chances of success, there’s little or no reason to believe the same isn’t happening in regards to the charges against Manchester City, to make sure the potential damage is as small as possible for UK relations with UAE.

For the big boys, there’s no such thing as fairness, human rights and whatnot, they couldn’t be less bothered about the Premier League apart from the fact that it’s essentially a massive british product that brings in insane amounts of money, including via the likes of foreign ownership ala Saudis, UAE. Not to mention thinking about your own best interest by making sure someone that can easily sort you out for a very comfortable life remains happy.

The case will continue to drag out and the end result will be a fine.

 

[Fortitude]

City had some of the best reported attendance in the Prem pre-takeover and Fede Valverde was recently interviewed and said The Etihad was the most difficult environment in which he has played. Is he a part of a misinformation campaign as well? There have been previous reports of a divergence between City's claimed attendance figures and actual attendance as reported by police figures from FOI requests, but this seems to be a pretty common practice for clubs. Manchester United has been accused of the same practice.

I can absolutely believe that City is up to some chicanery with reported ticket sale numbers, but there needs to be some evidence or basis for it. It's very common in the book industry, the music industry, with startups etc., so it's not out of the realm of possibility. But in a scenario where, when presented with evidence and reporting, people resort to whispers, innuendos and conjecture that comports with their priors or latch onto unfalsifiable or unprovable theories or alternative explanations, what really is the point of discussing? People should just believe what they want to believe.

The reports about City, regarding all numbers and financial matters, aren't an exercise in what one chooses to believe in or extract from what is being presented as fact? There's no reason to doubt them as an institution or believe they are partaking in subterfuge? Yes, ultimately I think practically everything regarding them boils down to what you believe because facts aren't necessarily facts - practically everything is dubitable - which is why they're in the shite they're in in the first place.

I couldn't click your link regarding Valverde because of the permissions the page is asking for, but that's the biggest European game and opponent City have ever hosted... do you think that's got the potential to be anomalous and an actual real turnout over other "sold out" games? Do I think other clubs boost attendance numbers at times? Yes. Do I think they do it anywhere near as much as City? Categorically not.

If this thread only went by what is verifiable about City it may as well be locked until an outcome is on the table.

You'll note I believe: they're cooking the books; paying the top players (and manager) a lot more than officially claimed; are strong-arming, or at least in cahoots with the government; are pumping money into Manchester for purposes other than serving the city with goodwill and virtuous deeds and will add falsifying attendance to the list. Perhaps I'm a tinfoil hat specialist... or perhaps City are seriously dodgy to the point it's incredulous and unprecedented.

It will be interesting to see what propaganda they will pump out once/if they get hold of a national newspaper.

 

[Red in STL]

It won’t be done on the books I’m sure.
A minister will sort it out with the PL chairman on the 19th hole over brandy and cigars…

And why would the PL chairmen do that, it won't be in their interests to do so

 

[blackhawk747]

I think the most probable verdict will be a huge point deduction in current season for man city and chelsea. But i dunno will it be big enough for them to be relegated to ecl.

 

[Marcus]

More for them to answer


https://www.skysports.com/football/...njamin-mendy-suing-man-city-over-unpaid-wages

This is interesting. What if he asks for not just on the books payments, but also as some have alleged, possible off the books payments as well? Could open a mighty big can of worms.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

The reports about City, regarding all numbers and financial matters, aren't an exercise in what one chooses to believe in or extract from what is being presented as fact? There's no reason to doubt them as an institution or believe they are partaking in subterfuge? Yes, ultimately I think practically everything regarding them boils down to what you believe because facts aren't necessarily facts - practically everything is dubitable - which is why they're in the shite they're in in the first place.

I couldn't click your link regarding Valverde because of the permissions the page is asking for, but that's the biggest European game and opponent City have ever hosted... do you think that's got the potential to be anomalous and an actual real turnout over other "sold out" games? Do I think other clubs boost attendance numbers at times? Yes. Do I think they do it anywhere near as much as City? Categorically not.

If this thread only went by what is verifiable about City it may as well be locked until an outcome is on the table.

You'll note I believe: they're cooking the books; paying the top players (and manager) a lot more than officially claimed; are strong-arming, or at least in cahoots with the government; are pumping money into Manchester for purposes other than serving the city with goodwill and virtuous deeds and will add falsifying attendance to the list. Perhaps I'm a tinfoil hat specialist... or perhaps City are seriously dodgy to the point it's incredulous and unprecedented.

It will be interesting to see what propaganda they will pump out once/if they get hold of a national newspaper.

Don't think there's anything outlandish about this - you've presented it very well, and considering all the noises and accusations, it's more than likely most of this is exact.