Like GCHQ said Pogba's only 18 and while he may not relish another season in the reserves he's not going to get regular games for United for at least another couple of years one would imagine. If he was a bit older then maybe but considering Cleverley has only just made his way into the team and he's 22 Pogba's got a bit of a wait on imo
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Like GCHQ said Pogba's only 18 and while he may not relish another season in the reserves he's not going to get regular games for United for at least another couple of years one would imagine. If he was a bit older then maybe but considering Cleverley has only just made his way into the team and he's 22 Pogba's got a bit of a wait on imo
BTW anyone else think he looks like Phil Jones?
Yeap. All white folks look the same dont they?
Just watched him second time but If Ajax demand like more than 25-30 mil, I just can't be so sure if he is that good or if there could be better options around.
I mean I was way more excited about Pogba in his 2 cameo's than seeing him play in 2 matches.
But tbh only second time I have watched him so I ll reserve my judgment.
I mean I was way more excited about Pogba in his 2 cameo's than seeing him play in 2 matches.
But tbh only second time I have watched him so I ll reserve my judgment.
I doubt he is going to go for £30m. I think around £18-20m is his mark. He is a good young player but not up there with the likes of Hazard and Götze.
Ouch for Ajax, I consider them a big club.
It's their fault. They let their fabled youth system fall into ruin.
I think we need to replace the word big when a lot of these young stars talk and replace it with richer. It's more honest and fairer to the clubs they are at.
Not compared to United, Barca, Real Madrid, Milan , Juventus, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, etc in the "current era".
History wise they are up there with all of them and in fact better than Arsenal and Chelsea. There are certain teams that are huge clubs and the idea of playing them in Europe should never be taken lightly. I class Ajax as being up there with Bayern Munich, Dynamo Kiev, Inter and so on easily.
Yes
Yes.
But thats why I said current era.
Also other leagues being better than the Dutch league also a factor.
Other leagues have always been better than the Dutch league.
I think that the exodus of Kluivert, Reizeger and Bogarde to AC Milan for peanuts did hinder their plans on that regard. Not to forget the lack of quality in the Dutch league. Kids tend not to improve unless facing some real competition.
I don't buy that at all. Even after those players left Ajax were still producing quality young players and getting to latter rounds in the champions leagues. The Zlatan's, Heitinga's, Sneidjer's and Van der vaart's of this world were all groomed or nurtured there. Their problems I believe all happened because they let their youth system decline. So they ended up having to compete in the transfer market for talent rather than grooming or nurturing it themselves. If they fixed that the current fair play rules will benefit them beyond measure.
It's not as if they were competing in an incredible league even back then. It was the genereal rule that the dutch league had great young players and they left, it was the constant churning out of young talent that kept them going.
Apart from Cleverley you mean. I don't remember conceding 20 shots a game when those 2 played. Once TC got injured and Fletcher came in was when it all started going wrong.
For some of us that has been obvious for the past 3 years. Waiting for Hargreaves was one thing, but many on here and still do believe Fletcher is some sort of DM, and that is why calls to sign a DM have been poo pooed by many until this season.
Those 20 shots a game you speak of usually occur when fletcher plays instead of Carrick, not because he is crap, but because he is not and never will be a defensive minded player. Not knocking fletch, he does what he does, but for me he has never been a DM.
This is the biggest single weakness in our squad in my view. Carrick is the only natural defensive minded midfielder we have. Without him we struggle, whether in a 2 or a 3. The only partnership i have seen do ok without him was the TC/Ando pairing at the start of the season.
I don't see the point of buying anybody else creative, until we have a viable alternative for when Carrick gets injured or needs a break. Imo that should be our number one priority by a huge distance this summer.
Yes.
TBF to Fletcher he looked out of it when he played. & he was.
I think it's quite a complicated topic. Personally I don't think Fletcher is a defensive midfielder but I do think he defends really well in central midfield. I think Hanson did an analysis of him against city a few years back highlighting this. He doesn't tend to get stuck in but rather closes of space and forces the other team to play sideways. The problem with this is that if his other partner isn't good at this then it can be exposed. Hence why with Carrick they can be a very solid partnership and with scholes who whilst he can't tackle well, he takes up good positions and knows where to press.
I thought Clev and Ando left a lot of space behind them when they played and had we been playing better teams when they were a combo then we may have been more exposed. Now I know we played Arsenal and Spurs but that was arsenal playing incredibly badly and missing a lot of players. Also they had plenty of chances which they fluffed. Spurs were missing Modric, Parker and Adebayor. Again that was a very open game for the first hour and only once we scored did we really dominate. The problem with these two is that whilst they work hard, both for me woulf be suited to a 3. You can can see when they defend in midfield that they don't really keep it tight but are prone to go towards the ball leaving gaps. I think they'll become better though with more time though. Anderson has gradually become better at it and I would expect clev to be ahead of him being a more natural central midfielder.
With Fletch out though we are exposed there if Carrick gets injured. I reckon if it we were to lose him for a number of games we'd have to consider going to a 3 depending on who we're facing. In the summer I guess we'll have to evaluate if Fletcher is a genuine option for next season and if not then we should look to sign some an additional player. I wouldn't want an out and out defensive midfielder but rather just a natural centre mid.
I thought Clev and Ando left a lot of space behind them when they played and had we been playing better teams when they were a combo then we may have been more exposed. Now I know we played Arsenal and Spurs but that was arsenal playing incredibly badly and missing a lot of players. Also they had plenty of chances which they fluffed. Spurs were missing Modric, Parker and Adebayor. Again that was a very open game for the first hour and only once we scored did we really dominate. The problem with these two is that whilst they work hard, both for me woulf be suited to a 3. You can can see when they defend in midfield that they don't really keep it tight but are prone to go towards the ball leaving gaps. I think they'll become better though with more time though. Anderson has gradually become better at it and I would expect clev to be ahead of him being a more natural central midfielder.
With Fletch out though we are exposed there if Carrick gets injured. I reckon if it we were to lose him for a number of games we'd have to consider going to a 3 depending on who we're facing. In the summer I guess we'll have to evaluate if Fletcher is a genuine option for next season and if not then we should look to sign some an additional player. I wouldn't want an out and out defensive midfielder but rather just a natural centre mid.
In Cleverley's first three games we conceded 57 shots.
There's always the chance that it had something to do with the fact they were Cleverleys first three games. He'd barely even played CM before that.
So that would be less than 20 shots a game then? I knew i was right!
Seriously though, didn't realise that, i stand corrected.
I'm sure he'll improve his defensive game just like Anderson will but that kind of positional awareness isn't just something you pick up - Carrick's the only one in our team who's shown it. I think it's an essential part of midfield play which is why Carrick is still key for us, and long-term it'd be suicidal to build a midfield without one of those players - for example, to have a midfield of Pogba, Cleverley and Anderson long-term to me just wouldn't work.
Whatever man.
The team I have mentioned are bigger attractions for any player in this world nowadays for whatever reasons.
This thing is not even debatable.
Obviously. Just like having a midfield of Iniesta, Scholes and Cleverley won't work. Carrick has definitely become extremely crucial for us but it's more because of bad planning on our part. He's the only central midfielder we have whose defending is one of his strengths. If Carrick gets injured, we're left with some extremely talented but attack minded/not even first team yet central midfielders and Phil Jones.
Pogba looks like the type who potentially has the positional awareness of a Carrick TBF. Cleverly also looks like he has Scholes positional sense too.
I don't think Cleverley is as bad as Anderson defensively. I remember even in the Everton game when he was just returned from injury, he was still getting back to defend most of the time. The main reason I remember this is because everyone was saying that Anderson could learn a thing or two from Cleverley in getting back to defend.
I think with a bit of fine tuning, he'll be ok. Probably be more of a hustle and bustle type of defending, as opposed to Carricks 'shielding' of the defence and cutting off options, which appears more intelligent.
He's shown good defending at times for the Reserves and a willingness to get stuck in. There is definitely the possibility that this could prove true. Personally, I think Pogba will turn out to be a deep lying midfielder in the long run.
I don't think Anderson is bad but he lacks stamina over a game and towards the end can get quite lazy but mainly doesn't follow his man well enough. I agree that clev is probably better. But I don't think the issue with them is that they don't get back but more how they do it. Both tend to get sucked to the ball and leave space because if it. Sometimes it'll win you the ball but against better players they'll expose that space.
I agree though that they will get better with time. Ando has been improving since he's been here and i'm sure clev will as well. If fletcher was available I don't think it's be an issue as that would have have given us an extra player who can defend and the middle and he's a good communicator in there as well.
IMO I feel he might develop into what Yaya Toure was for Barca in the holding role. which would be so great for us.
Money.
Not as the most defensive player though. Alongside Carrick, great! Instead of Carrick is the problem.
Agree with all that Ash, my reason for bringing it up was to highlight the need for a DM signing not more creativity. With the right defensive player in the right system we already have all the creativity we need.
This is my point Ash, we are exposed when Carrick is out whether fletcher is fit or not because when Carrick is out, Fletcher has to play as the most defensive player out of: Scholes, Giggs, Anderson, Cleverley. He is not a defender, being willing to close down space does not mean you can fulfill a role of deep lying playmaker whilst screening the back 4.
The role Carrick fulfils is not covered when he is out. Fletcher and anderson were every bit of as bad defensively as Scholes and Fletcher the season before. Yet both Carrick and Scholes and Carrick and Anderson have been very good pairings at times. As was Carrick and Fletcher.
It is not a criticism of Fletcher , but he is simply not a natural defender, and it is unfair to expect that of him. So we need someone who can fufill that role. It is a vital role to the effectiveness of our team, and without it we look vulnerable and tend to struggle.
Not disputing that chief, but it was exactly the same the season before when we conceded 9 goals in 4 or 5 games when fletcher was paired with Scholes.
Note that this very same run of games coincided directly with Evans run of poor form starting at Fulham. No Carrick, means considerably more exposed CB's. Only when Carrick came back in did the rot begin to stop.
It was a similar story this season. This is not a criticism of Fletcher, but for those claiming he is a DM or that he can cover that job are just plain wrong. Every time Carrick is out for any length of time we look worse for it.
As it stands we have 4/5 strikers, plenty of defenders, plenty of midfielders but only 1 DM. That is our weak point, and we need to address it this summer imo if we want to improve.
I believe we are looking for a Yaya Toure type player or another Carrick. That is why we didn't take the plunge and bring in Sneijder. I'm hoping we get to play Bilbao in the next round of the Europa League. It would give us chance to assess Javi Martinez.
I hope so, admittedly i know little about Martinez so i would like the chance to get a look at him against us myself.
Tbh though, i don't see that many potential players about in the Yaya mould. Have you any clue who we might be keeping an eye on, and would you expect us to do the majority of our business before the Euro's, as i would?
I suppose that's down to how you see it. Personally whilst I acknowledge that Fletcher isn't as strong defensively as carrick I still think he's good, and really as good as a central midfielder is going to be. He can easily come in as that player. The way I see it the likes of Clev and Ando will improve in their defensive respects with more experience and they shouldn't need to rely on carrick/fletch covering for them eventually. If Fletcher isn't going to be a realistic option though because of his illness then of course we need someone else in there but if he is then I don't see the need that much.
Fair enough. As I've said I think Fletcher could do that role if asked. Tbh I think what can help even more though is if we keep the system as it is at the moment with Rooney/someone dropping deep when we lose the ball. I think it makes a massive difference and it's something I've argued about a lot. Even in these last few months with Carrick playing so well you can see the difference it makes. When we play with two out and out strikers (as we did for most of the first half of the season) we're so much more exposed then when we have one striker and someone in the hole. It changes the dynamic for us attackingly and defensively. If we continue like this and fletch came in to replace Carrick I think he'd be fine.
Oh yeah of course he's not going to become a deep laying play maker but he can come in as the steel in the middle. Even now Carrick doesn't play that deep. At times he does but at others he breaks forward. As I said Fletch can be the steel, he might not be a deep laying playmaker but I don't think we have to have like for like in that respect. We just need a proper central midfielder to come in and that's exactly what Fletcher is. I remember for Scotland recently they played spain and Fletch did an excellent job as that screen. It's not his best position but he can do it. Ideally like I said anyway the likes of clev and ando will improve. I don't think we need an out and out defensive player to partner them, just someone who's better at it then they are. If it's one of them and one of carrick/fletch I don't see a problem. I don't think it's fair to judge ando and fletch as a combo on this season anyway considering Fletcher was in the condition he was. Even then I don't think they were defensively frail all the time they played this season. And certain parts of that can definitely be put down to the injuries at the back. It's no surpirise that we've been a lot more solid in recent months, not just because of carrick but also because we've had a stable defence.
As for individual partnerships, well I never like comparing them like that. It's easy to pick out a series of games and come to a conclusion but there can be other factors. All I know is that I've seen Fletcher partner Giggs and Scholes very well and not concede much.
As I said if he's fit I think he can do that role. Not the same as carrick, differently, but still effectively. If though it becomes apparent that Fletcher won't be able to return in a full capacity then I 100% agree that we need someone else to be an option.
He can play in every position upfront and as midfielder. Best investment you can do.
I don't have a clue the exact player with might want. But I suspect the type is similar to Toure/Carrick or lets say a more mature version of Pogba going by some of what SAF said after the summer.
Player out there like that are Javi Martinez, Yann Mvilla, Moussa Sissoko, Rodwell & Banega to name a few.
As well as appearing more intelligent it's more effective, no? Scholes was good at the hustle and bustle too but he wasn't in the same class as Carrick defensively.
Gatusso and De jong. Hustle and bustle masters, 2 of the best defensive shields a defence could ever have.
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