He was doing fine, he got moved because of the injury not because he was struggling.
we were bossing Newcastle up until that change - then we lost.
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we were bossing Newcastle up until that change - then we lost.
Well, we have different opinions the. I thought he was struggling in the air. Overall match was ok, considering he’s new to this level, so nothing to complain about there.
Agreed about playing for the strength. I likened Smalling to Chiellini. Although the later is ten times dirtier (even more than Ramos), and most likely would get 50 more red cards if he wasn't playing for Juventus and Italy NT.
Was Chiellini any good with his passing? Makes me wonder if he'd be deemed not good enough for us by some.
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Give this man a medal! Absolutely spot on!
I've defended Smalling for years. People get too caught up on players that are easy on the eye. If you did a money ball type team, Smalling would be first on the team sheet. Very good defender and should be playing next to Maguire.
This playing from the back ball playing defender is doing my head in.
All you need is a defender who can pass 10 yards to a midfielder. No need for overcomplicating stuffs.
That's not really true. Then the opposition know all they need to do is close down every player within 10 yards and they win the ball back, when they either panic and hoof it or play back towards their own goal. Exactly what used to happen with Smalling.
Serie A is very different to the PL and it better suits players who excel in a single area. Defenders who sit back and only defend, strikers who can score and nothing else. He should make the move permanent because he will never be good enough for where we want to go.
It's not realistic to close anyone within 10 yards. No team can realistically does that. Even barcelona cant do that.
Plus most teams actually moved around finding spaces. Most teams plays with 2 attackers at most vs 4 defenders and 1 dm. There's no situation where you have no one to pass the ball to under most circumstances.
With the way we're playing a ball playing defender is obsolete anyway
You say that as if fans speak with the same one voice at every given point in time. Obviously each of those varying opinions generally belonged to varying groups of fans most of which have never changed their opinion.
Of course they can. 10 yards isn't much, for a CB it's usually the two defenders either side of you and one midfielder. Teams used to do it to us all the time because they knew it would end up back with De Gea who would hoof it. They are doing it less this season because we have players who can play around it.
Smallings passing wouldn't be such an issue if we didn't build a midfield of none passers. Smallings on the ball ability got highlighted even more when Carrick retired.
Put smailing in a functional midfielder he wont be left without option.
If it's that easy to close down passing why dont we employ it ? Not every team has a ball playing defender, i wonder how do they cope
He's had functional midfields. He's played under 5 different managers and with countless midfielders. He has never been happy with the ball at his feet.
Not every team is expected to win every week. Having defenders whose first thought is to get the ball as far away from goal as possible is enough for them. For teams who are trying to challenge for the league, they need more. City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal all have defenders who are capable on the ball. Now we do too.
We did play a high press last season, if you remember that was a key feature of our winning streak. It fell apart along with the rest of our team.
Lets play Wan Bissaka up front with Martial closing everyone down and winning the ball all the time.
In the league there's only 2 teams that you can say have a ball playing cb. Yet there's 10 teams that are better than us.
We'll need to worry about ball playing defender when we're actually chasing the title, not when we're bottom half
So we should go for bottom half defenders because we're in the bottom half of the league?
Aside from City and Liverpool who are obvious.
Arsenal have Luiz. Say what you like about his defending, there are few better on the ball.
Chelsea have Rudigier, and Christensen who is ok.
Despite their efforts to self destruct Spurs still have Alderweireld and Vertonghen.
They are the teams we are trying to beat.
So we should go for bottom half defenders because we're in the bottom half of the league?
Aside from City and Liverpool who are obvious.
Arsenal have Luiz. Say what you like about his defending, there are few better on the ball.
Chelsea have Rudigier, and Christensen who is ok.
Despite their efforts to self destruct Spurs still have Alderweireld and Vertonghen.
They are the teams we are trying to beat.
And we hav3 Maguire dont we not?
Yes, and Lindelof, so we're fine for now. With Smalling we weren't.
You don't need two great ball players. It's ok to have one good one next to someone who is just competent, but even Beckenbauer isn't going to be enough to offset an atrocious player. We saw what happened when we played Ajax and marked De Ligt out of the game. Sanchez was hopeless and we won comfortably. That is us with players like Smalling and Jones in the team.
We're fine? We're not fine. 120m and worse off last season
So we should go for bottom half defenders because we're in the bottom half of the league?
Aside from City and Liverpool who are obvious.
Arsenal have Luiz. Say what you like about his defending, there are few better on the ball.
Chelsea have Rudigier, and Christensen who is ok.
Despite their efforts to self destruct Spurs still have Alderweireld and Vertonghen.
They are the teams we are trying to beat.
So you want us to find a Rudiger and Christensen?
Chelsea's weak point is defense. Spurs weak point has been defense. They are both in the top half of conceded goals in the league, with Arsenal just above.
The only example of a pair of "ball playing CBs" in the league where it doesnt come at the cost of having a poor defensive record are City and Liverpool. And then theres us, with Maguire being a ball playing CB and Lindelof being neither a good ball playing CB nor a good defending CB caught in the middle.
Rudigier has been injured all season.
Spurs have all fallen out with each other.
Their defensive records this season are nothing to do with the quality of their players.
True to a degree. But it does feel different with Smalling, the general consensus shifts with him considerably. He's not liked Blind or Martial where you have a core group of fans who think they're quality, then another group who think they're stealing a living.
Yeh. And now the excuse after having two ball playing defenders is if only we have a good DM, the defense would be good. It's just silly how people can find excuse.
Sometimes people need a change, a bit of excitement, a new feeling.
I’m glad Smalling is doing well in Italy but I don’t think he would make much difference to the current United team. Maybe a point or two.
I’m glad Smalling is doing well in Italy but I don’t think he would make much difference to the current United team. Maybe a point or two.
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So do you think the like of Chiellini wouldn't be good enough for "where we want to go"?
No, not at 35 years old he's not.
I think Lindelof's heading alone has lead to at least 2 goals that changed separate games. The question is whether Lindelof's ball playing ability has earned any points.
I am so glad that getting ball playing defenders has lead to us getting so many goals this season.
Sorry but it was dreadful to watch Smalling pass the ball from the back week in week out. No matter how bad Lindelöf is, Smalling was never the answer and he needed to be moved on.
Cheated out of the England squad. Southgate is a disgrace at times. As if Tyrone Mings is any better from playing out of the back.
This doesn't make Lindelof any more the answer either. The question is about right now and Smalling is definitely the better player than Lindelof.
Chiellini dirtier than Ramos
Samuel, Materazzi, Montero were dirty defenders, Chiellini can be rough but usually he is fair.
You place too much value on it. It seems you think defenders always finds themselves in this constant phase of building up play from the back. They have to do a lot of tasks you can evaluate them on, not just one thing. Most teams we face don't even press that high up the field, which makes your point irrelevant for all those games.
It also does seem like you have our players mixed up. To me Rojo has been the hoofing guy, Jones has been the back-passing man, and Lindelof has been the guy who plays the ball out for a throw instead of holding on to it because he lacks the strength to protect the ball against pressure. Smalling is capable of keeping the ball in a close fight if pressure gets too close, and for the most part he just keeps it very simple and finds his closest passing option in build up. Smalling is the guy that is very unadventurous, and it does impact the team attack against a good compact defence. It doesn't make him the bad guy in every game situation like you seem to suggest, especially when that weakness largely applies to all our CB's bar Maguire. Except they don't look as clumsy with the long legs.
He has been blamed for our team not working, but he did the same shit Lindelof does right now and its ok for a defender to just pass the ball to the nearest option most of the time. Most teams cut of the passing options, of which its more about the movement and counter movement by our midfielders and attackers, not the defenders ability to find a pass. Maguire has great ability to find pockets but even he is struggling in this department now without good movement ahead of him. Are we going to criticise his ball-playing ability too? No because he is a defender at the end of the day, and from his position it's limited how much he can do, I've never seen a CB run the midfield, ever. Nobody sets their team up like that. Even some of Van Djik involvements seem pretentious with regards to effective play, not due to lack of skills but just the nature of the position he takes up on the pitch.
Whats more important is to have the bravery and ability to carry the ball forward and play people through on goal with a nice pass if the space does present itself. That is something Smalling does from time to time. Do you disagree?
Left out of arguments on RedCafe? Lets turn to the laughing emoji...
Our defence so far have been among the best in the PL. Four teams have conceded fewer goals. No teams have a lower xga.
While conceding one goal per game is not great its a significant improvement from last year. Despite our only proper DM being out with injury (and looking old when he is fit!) and losing Herrera we have gone from conceding 1,34 per game to 1 goal per game. The xga has dropped even more, from 1,38 to 0,91.
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Most likely as the improved ball handling at the back, which Lindelof is part of, is one the reasons for the few conceded goals. Personally I think he lost one header that he should have won and that cost 1 point (same as Maguire who also lost one header he should have won that cost a goal, plus more or less every other CB in the league).
might add that in the match where Lindelof lost a relatively easy header resulting in a goal, Rashford also missed a penalty and DDG let in a cheap shot.
That’s actually not a given at all. You have no idea how we would do with Smalling in the team. In fact, we are very solid in defence and it’s actually going forward and even in midfield where we need to improve.
We've had 11 games, we've conceded 11 goals. This is not very solid for me.
How solid it is depends on one’s definition. It’s pretty much same level as City and Liverpool. Only 4 teams have conceded less goals, 15 teams have conceded more. So it’s among the absolute best defences in the PL if we measure defence quality in conceded goals.
Lindelof was the main defender throughout last season so if there is an improvement in the defense its either he has improved dramatically which he has not, or the new signings are responsible for the improvement.
In any case I reject that argument, as last season Utd were not generally conceding goals as a result of poor ball-handling in the defense, but rather more conventional defensive errors, of which Smalling was least guilty and Lindelof among the most guilty.
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