Last year's Bailly, sure. Smalling far more consistent this season.
12
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Clean sheets
- 20
- Goals
- 4
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 4
- Status
Last year's Bailly, sure. Smalling far more consistent this season.
I'm fine with that. He's doing a good job for us as a squad player, as long as the others can eventually stay fit or we find someone else who can. There are a lot of people in here who think he's our best defender though.
They have good reason to think that way
The likes of Herrera, Darmian are having terrible season. Rashford is also having some terrible games from time to time. Blind and Lingard not so much.
Neither of our defenders are much better in that regard. Actually, I bet Smalling is the one that gives the ball away less than anyone else. Rojo is the master of hoofing the ball in random directions, and Jones is the master of poor backpasses to de Gea, even Bailly had problems with giving away the ball to opposition quite often, and yet Smalling is the only one who is criticised for his distribution, and just because he looks awkward on the ball more than others.
The clear example why I am talking about an agenda here is the Vardy's goal. Smalling's thread got 20 new pages for a goal that he was actually the only one defending properly while Jones acted like a pub footballer and was lazy to even cover his guy. Smalling was criticised to death, yet Jones' thread was quiet like he did nothing wrong. That tells you all about objectivity regarding Smalling vs other players. Not to mention that he is the only one having good season from our CBs who are all having bad seasons, and yet he is the only one criticised for not being good enough. I don't think I have ever seen something like that.
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Perhaps you should work out why that is. Smalling may not be Maldini but that doesn't mean that our other options are better defenders. And someone who thinks Smalling is a better defender than the others isn't also saying they think he'd get into some of the other top clubs defences. It just means they think he's a better defender than the others we have
Rojo and Bailly can be extremely rash and reckless although Bailly does have all the physical gifts to be great if he can control himself, Jones has calmed down a bit but can still occasionally tunnel vision and focus too much on the ball and lose whats going on around him.
Smalling doesnt dive in as much. He's more likely to get told off for holding a shirt than getting in trouble for a dangerous challenge and he knows that getting in the right position to defend the situation will work out more often than trying to win every single ball and diving in
There are a few things that play in Smalling's favour, and they are all very important for a centre back.
Firstly, how often do you see him sprint at top speed chasing the ball compared to Jones, Rojo and Bailly, or even Lindelöf? People moaned about him losing pace because they rarely saw him run fast, but then Leicester and Bournemouth broke on the counter and he intercepted Mahrez and King because of great speed. That was not down to poor positioning from him, but he acted quicker than the others and still has the pace. Jones and Rojo sprint around a lot more in our own half because of their positioning. I've seen this a fair lot with Lindelöf too.
Secondly, Smalling is far superior in the air than our other centre backs. This is especially evident watching Jones dealing with long balls into our half as he struggles to win headers against the likes of Shane Long, which caused a few shaky moments.
Thirdly, Smalling is actually less likely to make mistakes than our other defenders as both Rojo (stupid penalty) and Jones make a few mistakes here and there. As for poor technique, look at Jones' attempt at clearing the ball before Rojo made that great sliding tackle against Everton. Smalling may look awkward, but very seldom does he actually give the ball away because of his alleged poor technique.
Taken from @roonster09 thread about POTM for December (not sure if you have this monthly btw, it's a brilliant breakdown of defensive actions)
Defensive contributions:
Out of the CB's;
Smalling had the most interceptions, won the most tackles and made the most clearances, while playing the most games - all that resulted in only 1 cleansheet.
And of course, looking at the goals conceded, the only one you can even try and argue was his fault was the second Leicester goal.
Does that some how mean he's not good enough?
Defensive contributions:
Out of the CB's;
Smalling had the most interceptions, won the most tackles and made the most clearances, while playing the most games - all that resulted in only 1 cleansheet.
And of course, looking at the goals conceded, the only one you can even try and argue was his fault was the second Leicester goal.
Does that some how mean he's not good enough?
There is one for every month.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/manutd-player-of-the-month-november.434176/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/manutd-player-of-the-month-october.433624/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/manutd-player-of-the-month-september.432892/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/manutd-player-of-the-month-august.431981/
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For me the issue isn't whether he's good enough, just I expect more and he's hit his ceiling. Jones is no different. Both a solid 6/10 on a good day but no more. We need top draw quality to go with our many 'good enough' CB's. Sadly in world football, that's not easy to find.
If they're just 6/10s we wouldnt have had any of the defensive records we've had. They are solid but not perfect and the main issue has been injuries
I did say 'on a good day'.....
And you create this all yourself? Excellent work!
Yeah, lot of sites provide the stats, you just have to collate them
Data mining can still be excruciating, you are providing a valuable service.
Taken from @roonster09 thread about POTM for December (not sure if you have this monthly btw, it's a brilliant breakdown of defensive actions)
Defensive contributions:
Out of the CB's;
Smalling had the most interceptions, won the most tackles and made the most clearances, while playing the most games - all that resulted in only 1 cleansheet.
And of course, looking at the goals conceded, the only one you can even try and argue was his fault was the second Leicester goal.
Does that some how mean he's not good enough?
One thing worth considering is that Smalling can be guilty of making a clearance when other players might find a pass which isn't reflected in these stats.
I don't think the stats calculate clearances that way but I could be wrong, @roonster09 do your sources have any definitions for how they calculate clearances?
And in which case, the same would apply for all of our defenders too.
Headers are considered clearances and he's the best aerial defender we have, which I think is more likely to be the reason he has more clearances.
Lindelof did that this weekend too. Our big summer CB signing.
When Smalling plays he usually does some big clearances, since he is very physical and good one on one.
But it feels (even more than usual) like there is 4 individual defenders, and not a defensive unit. and it feels like in the end that leads to us allowing a goal.
But it feels (even more than usual) like there is 4 individual defenders, and not a defensive unit. and it feels like in the end that leads to us allowing a goal.
I don’t disagree with that personally. It’s one of the criticisms I have of him.
Though on the other hand there’s times when there’s panic in the box and it seems like every defender slices a clearance or plays the ball back into danger and quite often it’s Mike who’ll get a solid hoof or header on the ball to get it away.
He could find more of a middle ground though in my opinion.
@Pexbo going by that definition, a pass wouldn't be classed as a clearance because the pressure is still there - but a header would, which makes sense.
So, it's possible for him to make more passes if the situation calls upon it, but at the same time if he's making clearances he's still relieving pressure, which is primarily his job.
We all know he's as awkward on the ball, so he's playing to his strengths.
Yeah, I know the last thing I want to see is Chris Smalling trying to play cute passes out from the back.
Me neither, the guys feet just look wrong sometimes and I'm never sure where the balls going to end up...
I don't think i posted in either thread in the immediate aftermath of that but that's a great example of the blinkers towards Smalling. Forget Jones as this is not his thread but Smalling defended that like an amateur, literally. One of the first things any defender learns is to show an attacker to the weaker side and cut out passing options but he did neither. He let Mahrez completely dictate what was going to happen next. Its basics like that he often gets wrong but plenty here are saying he defended that perfectly. Either they don't know any better or they refuse to admit he isn't as good as they want him to be.
Definitely agree with this, not everyone can be good at everything.
Another thing worth noting is that is seems to be the only defender we have who can actually clear the ball. We are pathetic at clearing the ball from our own box; clearances that are vertically shot 40 yards into the air only to fall down in the exact same spot from whence it came. Headers that find the opposition players on the edge of the 18 yard box. Jones and Matic are experts at this, so I am quite pleased that Smalling can actually clear the ball out of harms way.
Mahrez is impossible when he's on song. Show him to any side and he will dance past you, especially if you get too close. Being the last man probably made him cautious as well. He stopped Mahrez; someone else should have stopped Vardy.
We’re Man UTD not fecking Burnely. We don’t need to hoof the ball to clear it only for it to come right back. We need to pass it forward to get into counter-attacking positions.
The lengths some people willing to go to show Smallings “qualities” is a fecking joke.
The lengths some people willing to go to show Smallings “qualities” is a fecking joke.
For me we have 5 CB's with different strengths when previously we only needed 2 in Rio and Vidic. Before that arguably 1 in Stam. If Smalling played for Watford, the only teams he'd be linked with are the likes of Everton. I'd say the same for Jones too. Big problem for us is not enough elite players but too many good enough for the prem ones...
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Mahrez is rather two footed though, and goes inside and out. I don't think he really has a weaker side to be shown on to. If he shows him on to his right foot, Mahrez goes in to a more central position and takes a shot on his right, if he shows him on to his left, he goes on to what is his strongestr foot, but towards probably a more difficult angle. Vardy scored the goal on Jones, and Jones had a head start, but decided not to track him until it was too late. Everyone gets some of the blame, but Smalling less so than Jones and Young.
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That last bit is exactly what my reservations are about Smalling. And it sure as hell won't show up in his individual stats. Ever since Rio and Vidic moved on we've been amazingly inconsistent in defence. We go through spells of looking excellent but there's always an absolute shit show just around the corner. Literally keystone cops defending. And these shit shows seem to be much more likely to happen with Smalling in the team than when he's not. Which would help explain the very large discrepancy in goals conceded with vs without him over the last season and a half.
Like I said earlier on, it's hard to put your finger on exactly what's going on. Maybe he's not talking to the other defenders around him as much as he should? Maybe his positioning is a bit off, so we lose our defensive shape? Maybe the way he gives off an aura of mild panic when he's on the ball creates uncertainty at the back?
Feck knows exactly what the issue is but - considering how he has all the tools to be a top defender - he definitely punches well below his weight when it comes to being part of an effective defensive unit. Rojo and Jones are as rash and impulsive as CBs get (and Bailly is raw as anything too) but I'll always feel that bit more confident of a solid defensive performance when they start than I do when Smalling is involved.
From the stats above, all the centre backs are making a pretty similar amount of clearances per minute, with Rojo and Jones making the most, then Smalling, then Lindelof. If all the centre backs are doing it, wouldn't you think it is instructional, rather than individual?
Rojo is by far the worst offender for whacking the ball aimlessly, as well as those hilarious 40 yard shots at goal that end up closer to the corner flag. Somehow he doesn't get the same flack for it as Smalling does, despite him doing it less (and not at all as far as shooting from 40 yards is concerned)
Blaming Smalling for that goal shows your agenda posting, simple as that.
Maybe Vardy scores anyway but thats not a reason to forget the basics and let Mahrez do whatever he wants. The defender should always be trying to get control of the situation (this is what I think Smalling's real weakness comes down to).
@OnlyTwoDaSilvas Only 11% of Mahrez's goals come from his right foot so he is most definitely weaker if shown to that side and if Smalling is preparing properly before games he should know that.
He's also capable of sumptuous 50 yard passes, switching the play from one flank to another. The taking crazy pot shots is no big deal in the grand scheme of things - considering it only happens once or twice in a game and he recently hit the bar with one effort - but he's clearly a hell of a lot more useful than Smalling when in possession of the football.
He statistically hoofs more than any other CB, so you'd expect some of those to land to a United player. A great deal of them are wayward and hurried. I'd say he was capable of it if he was consistent at it, but he largely isn't. They look good when they come off, but most of the time they don't.
Apart form Smalling's technique looking awkward, I really don't think there is much between him and Rojo in how they use the ball. Both are as wasteful as each other, but as stated above, I'd be surprised if clearances aren't an instruction. I don't think Mourinho minds wasteful clearances, so long as we clear the danger. Whether fans like that method is another matter.
My brain isn't back to normal yet
That's just your personal bias really.
A "bias" born out by the stats which show we conceded almost a goal more per game with him in the team last season than we did without him.
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